A Challenge to the Status Quo? Whirlwind: IAS DOES NOT MATTER* der

M

mcm

Banned
A Challenge to the Status Quo? Whirlwind: IAS DOES NOT MATTER*

*If you can control your whirls such that they are no more than 8 frames long.

I have been reading a bit about the internal mechanics behind Whirlwind on some other forums, and it has come to my attention that for a certain style of whirlwind use, short bursts perhaps more commonly known as the "Dance of Death" or "DoD", weapon speed and thus weapon WW breakpoints simply do not matter.

I best thread I could find that addresses this is the following:

http://phrozenkeep.it-point.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12561

I would like to quote one of the poster's comments (see full thread for the gory details):

"Summary Of WW Attack Speed
We always attack at WW 1 AND 2 (Frame 4 AND 8)

After That, Based on CurrentWeapon Speed,
The function calculates every 4 frames if it should attack."

So, regardless of weapon speed you will always have the chance to attack at frame 4 and 8 of a WW. For PVP this brings about an interesting possibility, that it might be advantageous to use SLOW high damage weapons over weapons that reach the known WW breakpoints, provided you can control your whirls and keep them at 8 frames in length.

Two other aspects of whirlwind that have been discovered by members of the aforementioned forum and the Lurker Lounge are the double attack opportunity for the 8th and subsequent attack frames if dual weilding, and that weapon range has no effect on the required proximity to hit a target during WW. I have verified both of these effects myself with two characters setup within a TCP/IP game.

The meat bag character received a large chunk of life, 0 def, and level 9. The offensive character received the following weapons:

- Two 200-201 damage range 1 weapons reaching -35 ww breakpoint
- One 200-201 damage range 5 two handed weapon reaching -60 ww breakpoint.

The first test of range resulted in the same proximity being required to hit with ww for either weapon setup (dual range 1 or two handed range 5.) What's more, ending a WW at a point where a hit was made with the range 1 weapons, then attempting to shift-attack resulted in no hit, in fact, if I tried to attack from that range where WW was successful, the offensive character walked quite far towards the meat bag to strike, confirming that weapon range has no effect on WW range. As has been suggested before, weapon range only seems to effect a maximum number of hits possible on a stationary target with a single WW pass (I believe the number is weapon_range + 3.)

The second test of damage output was conducted in two ways:

1) Using short whirls where two audible hits were detected. The dual weilded weapons always did ~50% more damage than the 2 handed weapon in this case, confirming that two attacks are possible one from each weapon (in the alternating way described in the aforementioned thread) on the 8th frame.

2) Using long whirls starting far from the target. Note that this is where the weapon speed helps, since at this distance the whirl is well past frames 4 and 8, however due to my use of -35 and -60 1 hand and 2 hand weapons respectively the attacks continued at every 4th frame after the 8th. In this scenario, upwards of 6 attacks were audible, and the damage output for dual weilding increased to around 75% more than the 2 handed weapon, indicating that as suggested by threads on the Lurker Lounge, attack frames where both weapons are eligible for attack (due to weapon speed) past the 8th frame also have the possibility for an attack from both weapons at the same time.

So, with this information some interesting new weapon choice possibilities arise for the fact that weapon range does not effect ww range and the scenario of short whirls around 8 frames where weapon speed does not matter. The following numbers are based an 8 frame ww attack, and are samples from a barb I setup with the following gear in a single player environment. The values are derived from average listed values so as to avoid the factor of chance (crushing blow, deadly strike, critical strike, max/min, etc):

Arreats with 40%ED jewel
Highlords Wrath
Enigma
Raven Frosts
Spiderweb Mesh
60/20 Steelrends
Gore Riders
39x3/20/20, 1xperf anni.
Max WW, Max respective masteries.

(Just a sample gear selection)

I chose to compare a popular EBOTD/BEAST Zerker axe setup with a STONE/BEAST Caddy setup and a EBOTD Thunder Maul setup. Perfect stats are assumed in all cases. The "default" (right handed) weapon, that which is used for "single weapon" attacks like Concentrate is the first listed. This is the weapon which is always used at the 4th frame of WW.

EBOTD/BEAST Zerker:
1764-6350/878-3769 listed, 4057/2323 average, 2/1 hits = 10437 total damage.

STONE/BEAST Caddy:
2133-3831/1340-2777 listed, 2982/2058 average, 2/1 hits = 8022 total damage.

STONE/STONE:
1720-3096/1720-3096 listed, 2408/2408 average, 2/1 hits = 7224 total damage.

ETH STONE/BEAST Caddy
3170-5075/1340-2777 listed, 4122/2058 average, 2/1 hits = 10302 total damage.

ETH STONE/ETH STONE
2549-4092/2549-4092 listed, 3320/3320 average, 2/1 hits = 9960 total damage.

EBOTD TMAUL
1968-12K listed, 6984 average (assuming 12,000 max), 2 hits = 13968 total damage.

Some things to note: An ETH STONE/BEAST Caddy setup achieve approximately the same damage over 8 frames as an EBOTD/BEAST Zerker setup. But here are some things the stone has over the EBOTD: 40% Crushing blow, and up to +30 Damage (AVOIDS PVP PENALTY) and a much closer damage range from the maces which results in more consistent damage being dealt which some players may appreciate.

However, the really interesting weapon is the EBOTD TMAUL, with a much higher total average damage being dealt than any of the dual weilding setups, and certainly a remarkable potential damage over just 8 frames of 24,000, when combined with DS/CS is around 48,000 physical damage which absolutely no PVP opponent would survive.

So, it is my proposal that the conventional wisdom surrounding WW needs to be changed for players who use the "DoD" WW technique, which is without a doubt the most effective technique in a PVP environment versus any momentarily stationary opponent (i.e, anything but WW.)

I encourage you to do your own testing to convince yourself of this information.

What do YOU think?
 
ReVolution said:
....boring.
Click to expand...


yeah i stopped reading way early too.

with the other 'voodooisms' present in the forum right now, i am hesitant to speak about this one, but i must say that i have experienced something which could be what mcm is talking about.

i have always noticed on my WW characters (pvm) that i get way more hits if i begin my WW when there are already monsters in the range of my weapon, meaning i dont start from 20 feet back and finish 20 feet behind hell meph, but rather i stand right next to him and, from point blank distance, begin my WW by clicking past him. there seems to be an initial abundance of hits this way, and it could be the standard 4 8 frame check mcm is talking about. conversely, i always had trouble hitting with WW when 'going through a pack' because my WW weapon at the time was only good enough for an 8 frame check, which is really bad for a 2 hander.

im pretty tired so i may finish the initial post later...i just wanted to say that i think it is a moot point if there is a standard 4 8 frame check for WW simply because online you wont know if youre in range or not, and even if you are, everytime you finish a WW there is a stutter step anyhow, so you lose time that way (if you plan on doing 2 yard short sweeps). i think there will always be a trend to hit 4 frames for pvm or pvp because you cant expect people to build glass barbs who's WW only hits if you do it juuuust right, otherwise its a wash.
 
I specifically included a link to a detailed discussion of the mechanics of WW so that this would not be interpreted as just someones ramblings about how they *think* it works.

Regarding not knowing ones range online I think that with the most effective method for killing casters being teleport-stomping this is really a non issue as you are always immediately within range when doing this. In addition it's not generally a good idea to execute anything but a short WW against high damage casters that must be continually hounded, so I think that this information applies well to the common barb problem of being unable to easily kill powerful casters.
 
It is not that I am just venting I wrote with some help all the weapons that hits the last break point for wirlwind. Right when I was done... What do I see this. So ya I was like AAAAA MAAAANNNNN!!!!

So how does it really work? In simple minded terms. Because I do not have that many rinkels in or on my brain. Does range efftect? Does 2 handed weapons effect? Does duel weapons effect? By how many hits each? OOPs there went a rinkel.
 
Don't get me wrong, this doesn't render the breakpoints useless in all situations, in fact for PVM it is still the #1 criteria due to a different approach attacking large mobs of monsters with WW. However for PVP and other 1-2 target battles this is not the case.

As far as your questions:

1) Weapon range appears only to affect maximum hits possible on a stationary target.
2) The frame 4 and 8 attack checks are true for all weapons, 1 or 2 handed, single or dual weilding.
3) Dual weilding provides the possibility for an attack from EACH weapon at every WW frame check (multiples of 4) except for the first check at the 4th frame.
4) Number of hits can get very complicated for attack checks after the 8th frame depending on the specific speed of the weapons used (see aforementioned thread, and links within that thread.) However, for the 4th 1 hit is always possible, for the 8th frame, 1 hit is possible when weilding one weapon, 2 hits are possible when dual weilding.
 
Ok I like ww for player vs monster.

I am jumping on the wolf barb train... (lost a rinkel)

1. So how many hits can you do with range?
2. So you get a attack once on the 4th and 8th frame only?
3. You get 2-4 attacks on the 8th frame wile using 2 weapons?
4. After the 8th frame my guess is as good as yours?
 
No, all that I am stating is that regardless of weapon speed an attack has the opportunity to be made on the 4th and 8th frame for a single weapon, or twice on the 8th for dual weapons.
I'll post a table showing number of attacks possible at various weapon speeds later tonight when I don't have to use lynx.
 
mcm said:
No, all that I am stating is that regardless of weapon speed an attack has the opportunity to be made on the 4th and 8th frame for a single weapon, or twice on the 8th for dual weapons.
I'll post a table showing number of attacks possible at various weapon speeds later tonight when I don't have to use lynx.
Click to expand...

i didn't see it in your post, but it should be pointed out that dual wielding can only yield two hits if there are two monsters in range. thus, unless you are dueling many people bunched up right next to each other, dual wielding to get more damage will not be effective. if your tests dont demonstrate this, then i would be confused, as i've seen a few posts like the one you link to at lurkerlounge or theamazonbasin that have this piece of informaion.

secondly, i am not clear on how you tested that weapon range doesnt matter, or the logic with which you decided this. if you could explain a little bit more clearly what you did and your logic, it woudl be very helpful to me.

edit:
also, as it was stated in an earlier response, the cooldown at the end of whirls may be more of an issue than as presented i the original post. i am not familiar with ww in a pvp vs caster setup, so tell me if i am wrong to assume that in these short whirls, the possibility of a third hit at frame 12 coudl exist for the fastest weapons. thus, couldnt these faster weapons have an advantage in this case?
 
if that's voodoism, voodoos have come a long way. they can hack into the game code now ;)

i think this could work with a very dedicated player. you'd want broadband though. and i'm interested to know the answers to norvi's questions.
 
Wow....its been awhile since ive thought about .09 and WWing a pally and hearing *tink tink tink tink tink tink* all from one WW. (assuming the pally blocks all the hits) Ok im done...continue :lol:
 
norvi11erogers said:
i didn't see it in your post, but it should be pointed out that dual wielding can only yield two hits if there are two monsters in range. thus, unless you are dueling many people bunched up right next to each other, dual wielding to get more damage will not be effective. if your tests dont demonstrate this, then i would be confused, as i've seen a few posts like the one you link to at lurkerlounge or theamazonbasin that have this piece of informaion.
Click to expand...

This has never been thoroughly discussed on any of the aforementioned forums, though Hammerman has said "and if you are dual weilding then of course you can make two attacks" and not qualified whether this relates to a single target or two.

SO, I decided to do some testing. Setup was as follows:

Meat bag: 5000 life (enough to take a thrashing w/o dying all the time), 0 defense, level 9

Offensive: 50,000 AR, level 99 with three weapon setups:

- One 200-201 damage range 1 weapon reaching -35 ww breakpoint held in one hand.
- Two 200-201 damage range 1 weapons reaching -35 ww breakpoint dual weilded.
- One 200-201 damage range 5 two handed weapon reaching -60 ww breakpoint.

Damage with level 7 ww is 198-199 listed

Ten "8 frame" WW attacks were made for each weapon setup and the results recorded. The length of the WW was controled by myself and confirmed by the number of audible hits "smack smack" this being always TWO for an 8 frame attack.

Damage dealt to the meat bag:
1 handed range 1 weapon: 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68
2 handed range 5 weapon: 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 68, 34, 68
Dual weild 1 handed range 1 weapons: 102, 102, 102, 102, 102, 102, 102, 102, 102, 102

Regarding the 34 for the 2 hander, I can only assume this was a miss due to 5% chance of missing (95% cap on chance to hit.)

To reiterate, this is on a SINGLE pvp opponent. I believe these results speak for themselves, with the dual weilding consistently doing 50% more damage by virtue of the fact that both weapons attack on the 8th frame.

This test was extended to long range WW, again all weapons are at their last breakpoint (4 frame attack checks) starting far from the meat bag to eliminate the 4 and 8 frame attacks, and in this case the dual weilding 1 handed range 1 weapons performed close to 100% greater damage than either the 1 handed single weild or the 2 handed:

1 hand dual weild:
371, 6 audible hits. 371 / 34 per hit = 10.91 actual hits
405, 6 audible hits. 405 / 34 per hit = 11.91 actual hits
405, 6 audible hits. 405 / 34 per hit = 11.91 actual hits

2 handed:
236, 7 audible hits. 236 / 34 per hit = 6.94 actual hits
202, 6 audible hits. 202 / 34 per hit = 5.94 actual hits
236, 7 audible hits. 236 / 34 per hit = 6.94 actual hits

Another thing worth noting here, the dual weild tests were with range 1 weapons, and 6 hits were audible. This doesn't seem to comply with the range + 3 rule for max hits, though this may be per weapon? Even so, we had 12 actual hits so this cant be the case.

secondly, i am not clear on how you tested that weapon range doesnt matter, or the logic with which you decided this. if you could explain a little bit more clearly what you did and your logic, it woudl be very helpful to me.
Click to expand...

I refactored my test for this by using the weapon of specific range to normal attack from a distance first, stopping where the attack took place, then trying to whirl away or perpendicular to the target vector. The test of significance is where the normal attack is made with a range 5 weapon, getting into range 5, then switching to range one and doing the WW. Indeed it appears there is a difference between the weapons with respect to range as WW away never hit from range 5 with the range 1 weapon, and the range 5 weapon occasionally did. However ww perpendicular to the target vector with the range 1 weapon from range 5 did occasionally hit. There seems to be very little difference with respect to range and the proximity required to hit with WW, I believe what led me to think that range did not matter was that I originally did this test with a range 3 vs 5 weapon and the difference is so small I would almost call it insignificant.

also, as it was stated in an earlier response, the cooldown at the end of whirls may be more of an issue than as presented i the original post. i am not familiar with ww in a pvp vs caster setup, so tell me if i am wrong to assume that in these short whirls, the possibility of a third hit at frame 12 coudl exist for the fastest weapons. thus, couldnt these faster weapons have an advantage in this case?
Click to expand...

The frame 12 hit is certainly a possibility for a faster weapon, but versus casters, particular those with high mobility, the goal is to hound the opponent as much as possible and this requires a short WW so the next WW (provided the opponent has not moved, if they have you want to be on the move as soon as possible anyway) does not start out of range.

In my opinion 8 frame WW's are the ideal offensive technique against casters with high mobility, and this information certainly allows for some interesting end game be-all-end-all weapon options besides EBOTD (my examples with Stone Crusher were just that, examples.)
 
yes mcm is right about the ww attacking first with one weapon and then with both. the first 4 frame tick, the primary-hand hits, and the next hit, the off hand hits + the primary. after that, every 4 frames the off hand hits and every eight frame the primary weapon hits with it.

however, this makes it seems like weilding some massive slow-*** weapon like a botd thundermaul or war pike is the best idea since frame 4 and 8 is guarenteed, and your hits do 10k+ damage each.

in single player, with no lag, try wwing. you whirl, pause, whirl, pause, whirl, pause. These pauses are 4 frames long and you'll end up stopping way too often; it'll be 8 frames until the first hit happens, 4 frames for another hit, 8 frames for the next, and 8 frames for another hit assming u run fast and your ww hits twice per whirl. the slower you are, the less noticeable this is since a smaller ratio of your htis will be subject to the initial delay

the best combination for dueling casters is a botd and a beast, assuming its a tweaker build, since it has the same average damage as two botd axes but a load of special effects like tha fanat, and OW. using one large two-handed waepon hits nowhere near often enough beacuse of 2 reasons... the large ratio of the number of 4 frame-delays to the number of ww hits, and the single-weapon will alawys hit an oak sage or golem first, leading to the result that two-hander weapons suck vs anyone with blocking and/or a minion like oak sage or golem.

barring all math crap, in practical experience twohand-weapon using barbs are never as good as dual weilding barbs both in duels and in pvm.
 
acceleration turkey said:
not everyone's mommy buys them duped zods on ebay.



and it's "petty." you should know.
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oh my bad, please educate me more.... if ur bored enough to do that much research on a barbarian skill, then i figure you would you be really addicted to the game. and therefore you have nice items.... but thanks to you, i'm now educated...

only punks like you try to act like a smartass and say that. you imply i buy stuff from ebay? typical ****** trying to make judgemental replies.
 
Ok im not chosing sides, but, although yes it was antagonistic of him to make the ebay comment, u sort of asked for it. People are trying to discuss the intrical proponents of the game, and u say something about "who cares, get a botd and dont worry"...thats just as useless as his comment.
 
oh my bad, please educate me more.... if ur bored enough to do that much research on a barbarian skill, then i figure you would you be really addicted to the game. and therefore you have nice items.... but thanks to you, i'm now educated...

only punks like you try to act like a smartass and say that. you imply i buy stuff from ebay? typical ****** trying to make judgemental replies.
Click to expand...

having really nice items doesn't mean you've got an item with vex and zod in it. the legitimacy of these items are questionable, ALWAYS. not to acknowledge that, whenever you're mentioning botd, beast, and the other ridiculously common runewords (cheaters. or those who i contest are like yourself - affiliate themselves with cheaters), or whenever anyone else questions it, is pure ignorance. so we agree that you've displayed pure ignorance. somebody has highlighted this in response to your stupid post, and you respond with insults, defensive 'newbish' behaviour, and to rub salt into the wounds, your stupid self can't even spell properly.

furthermore, i contest that you are living at home with your mother, and either her or your father has given you money with which you have freedom to spend. furthermore, i contest that you have used that money to buy items off ebay, d2items.com or something similiar. it's your decision from here whether or not to answer us truthfully. we can only help you with these monumental problems that i've discussed if you come clean with us, and tell the truth.
 
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