Run times for different areas / targets

Good topic. @Gripphon 's estimates are almost spot on what my runtimes usually look like, give or take 5 seconds here and there. I consider myself a pretty average player overall. I've never been too much into games where fast-paced gaming is must (I'm more of a turn-based kinda guy, D2 being an obvious exception), so my motor skills aren't the best. I like to go by my own pace, hence the Single Player. However, since I want to maximize the precious gaming time I have, I want to be as fast as it's possible to me, while still enjoying the game. I have no wish to be the "fastest", I'm always just competing against myself, setting goals I think it's possible for me to reach. So far I've gotten better with surprisingly steady pace, and there's still room for improvement.

Sometimes I entertain an idea, that D2 has a lot in common with a driving game, with your char being a vehicle that you tune and tweak as you get more walthy so you can get better laptimes etc. :D

Regarding relaxing running and the fun aspect; by pushing yourself to your limits for extended periods of time, you will find yourself much faster also when not trying 100%.

This is pretty much what I've learned as well. I tend to play pretty casually, listening podcasts/audiobooks/streams while I run, so I'm not always very focused. By sometimes going on full-focused time trial mode I've been able to improve my casual play quite a bit, since some thing become almost automatic after a little practice. Here are some things that I feel have helped me in different areas:

AT/Pits p1: I think the most important thing is to just keep moving. Pick a route, stay on the route, kill all the bosses on the route, and as soon as you see the bosses death animation check the loot and keep moving. In AT, I sometimes drop the blizzard at some spawn points before I see if there's a even a bosspack there, just in case. I used to spend too much time checking loot, second guess, making sure I didn't miss drop/bosspack etc. Nowadays I can see if item is interesting or not almost before the boss hits the ground. Being at grail -5 certainly helps, since there are quite a limited number of items I'm actually interested in. It depends how I'm feeling: sometimes I pick all potentially useful rares and even magic rings and amulets. Sometimes it's just strictly uniques.

LK p7: Learning to use Telekinesis effectively has made a big difference. 1.07 has been very useful in this regard, because in that patch you use TK to pick up everything and learn to control it very well. Every chest and poppable, i open with Telekinesis. I also almost never walk. 200FCR ftw. Learning to trust the orange flash, not spending time sorting through drops just-in-case... If I don't see anything useful in second or two, I keep moving. I've done thousands of LK runs, and I can't remember one situation, where going extensively through loot that didn't have the orange flash would've netted me a HR. Also, empty inventory (except keys ofc) is a must.

Overall, getting past the neurotic OCD "what-if"-mentality has sped things up a lot on my end.

Trav p3: Here, I don't have much to add that haven't been said already. I feel that average of sub 20 seconds is currently a brickwall for me that I'm not sure if I ever can break. I'd need practically perfect map. Still, I'm fine with sub 24s, not that it's easy, but that I know I can do. I'm kinda dreading the forthcoming map-rolling extragavanza, since I have pretty high hopes and standards, and rolling good Trav map ain't easy.

Regarding Cows: I have never really tested the enough to know where I'm at. I know I can run close to 4 mnutes with Javazon and Fire Sorc, but I've not counted enough runs to get trustworthy average. I've never tried any Necro at Cows. I'd like to hear more info about the Summoner build. I have idle Bonemancer I could respec and try out. It's very likely I'll be running with multiple chars anyway during the 3rd round of RFL, juts to keep things interesting. Might try the Trapper too, I like playing my Trapper very much but lately it's been hard to come up things to do with her. Possibly Lightning Sorc as well.

About Baal: I think Zealot is pretty much on par with WW Barb. Probably slower at waves, but possibly faster Baal killer (with Smite). I remember having a pretty good time when Baaling with my Zealot, before I levelled my PitBarb as WWer. Baal runs generally bore me to death, so I haven't got much data, but Gripph's estimates look pretty accurate.
 
Also, regarding cows... We all simply embraced the "fact" they are best ran on p7 without a question. I guess such belief came from bnet because they don't have stationary maps, so it is obviously best for them to really nail it on p7. Also javazon was widely considered as best by far and when she throws 1 javelin, cows are dead etc...

But, by doing some calculations, I am not convinced that p7 is best at all. Comparing things as drop odds per cow in comparison to their extra life because of higher player settings, and including the fact that it takes certain time to get a leg no matter what player settings is used, I came to conclusion that either p5 or p3 are the best for cow running. For necro who clears cow level in 3:15, he needs to nail them in 2:52 on p5 to be as efficient as cows of p7.

Things are getting even better because:
- on p5 you will have less leftover cows because CE will be 25% stronger, which gives more advantage to p5 vs p7
- p5 cows are less dangerous than p7 cows, you will cruise even easier through them
- less cluttering, hence easier spotting of items and less time loss on trying to figure out what dropped

Disadvantage which should be easy to neutralize:
- it is easier to kill Cow King on lower player settings, especially with necro

In theory, p3 could be even better than p5, but this time it depends on a test and how many items players are picking up...

So, I wouldn't be surprised that either p3 or p5 are actually best for cows. I would assume p5 to be better overall than p3, but am not completely sure. What I am almost completely sure is that p5 will smack p7 by quite some margin. Should be tested though.
 
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Gripphon, that will be really interesting to test and see. I like the less leftover cows part of that, they always annoy me even though I know it's better to move one than chase every single cow... :p

Could the lower settings bring even more builds into play? Chain/Lightning Sorc comes to mind.

Overall, getting past the neurotic OCD "what-if"-mentality has sped things up a lot on my end.

Agreed, and rather trying to turn it the other way around: "what if I had ran faster". There could've been that Zod.
 
There is also another important aspect of efficient running what could make it so fun - character optimization. While everyone could try to optimize their characters to certain level, when you are trying to do your best, every single upgrade counts, no matter how small. That also takes character building and optimization to a whole new level. Optimization starts to get really important once you reach runtimes I mentioned. Those are in general starting points of efficient running. To improve further you also need a really well built character, not only playing skill. To be on a top tier level, it is not irrelevant is your AT sorc built to carry 300 MF or did you try to squeeze 600+ while maintaining safety and killing speed.

Such character optimization could take some deeper planning and specific gear to make it work. Sometimes proper character planning could easily take hours if you want to squeeze the most out of your character. While such optimization is not really required to be among the best, it will still improve your character by a little. Also, such planning and character building can be incredibly fun process. While not everyone is ready to nail the math and planning into details for a game, it can still be really rewarding because once you properly plan and build your character, once you see it really works can be really rewarding for the effort. And you end up with efficient character.

So, efficient playing is not only about "let's make sure we farm those Zods as fast as we can", but is also about planning and building characters. Those two things go together like finger and nail. You won't be able to hit top numbers without properly optimized character no matter how skilled you are. Most players are satisfied with "whatever works" approach, but try to squeeze most out of your characters, you might be surprised how the whole process of planning and testing can make you more efficient player. First steps could be hardish as they also were for me, but with time you will learn to pay attention to a certain details, but will also start to realize what is less important for your character, even things you thought are set in stone.

If I learned anything about this game, it is nothing is really set in stone and everything is to some degree a matter of taste, not just raw numbers. I also sometime take "less efficient" approach to make my character work more comfortably for my own playing style rather than forcing something that could be slightly better on paper, but is annoying to execute. Comfortable playing is also a key to a long term efficient running. This is why I, for example, took 2700+ life on my pitzerker unlike standard approach with 2200 players usually take. While you can work with 2200 and by math do have slightly higher damage, higher life makes you lose less time on trying to stay alive in ugly situations and I believe such approach made my life much easier playing such character (and possibly more efficient?) on a long run in comparison to players who feel fragile against every single fanaticism archer pack out there. Just a small example where math can't really help you, but playing experience can. In the end, it is about combination of playing experience, math and goals we would like to achieve.
 
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Could the lower settings bring even more builds into play? Chain/Lightning Sorc comes to mind.

I think lightning sorc is powerhouse even for p7 running. p5 could possibly make Hammerdin a bit stronger. Fireball sorc might feel less of a difference since she can 2 shot cows even on p7 as she would on p5, so I wonder how could such change affect her. Maybe she will enjoy p3 with 1 shots all over the place lol. CE will become considerably stronger and I think necro and trapper could profit the most from such change. Javazon could profit too, but not as much since she can also slay cows pretty instantly on p7...

It is all just a theory which should be put to a test with every single build out there.

There is also 1 more thing why I like idea of p5 over p3 - you have to deal with less trips to collect a leg :p I'd rather avoid that every 2 minutes if possible.
 
Very interesting all !!! Thanks a lot.

@Burgomaster3 very nice analysis. Thanks.

Just checked my running times for certain areas.

AT p7: 87 + 1 sec
RoF p7: 20 sec
CS 2 seals p7: 63 sec

Rest as in my first post.
 
Are non of the council members cold immune? Also what gear do you use? I only ran them with Barb or Pala :)
Toorc is always cold immune, but breakably. Other boss can also become cold immune. With Infinity on merc, Toorc has a low chance to become unbreakably immune, like once in ~70 runs or something like that.
It's Ismail Vilehand who can acquire a cold immunity in Hell which cannot be removed by Infinity's level 12 Conviction (-17%), when he spawns Spectral Hit or Magic Resistant and Cold Enchanted (128% or 148% respectively), in that order: since he's already Extra Fast Cursed and can spawn Multiple Shots, the chance of that happening is ~1.8% or 1/55 (2/(13-2) * 1/10).

Toorc Icefist's cold immunity can always be removed since he's inherently Immune to Fire (120%) in Hell and always Cold Enchanted (33+75 = 108%): Spectral Hit bonuses only apply if Resist < 75%, and Magic Resistant bonuses only apply if Resist < 100%, so neither of those immunities can be increased (although even if those bonuses weren't restricted, they still wouldn't increase his immunity since he already has more than one).

Geleb Flamefinger can never be Immune to Cold since he's inherently Immune to Lightning (100%) in Hell and always Fire Enchanted (33+75 = 108%): since he already has two immunities he cannot acquire a third, and those two cannot increase. At worst, spawning Spectral Hit and Magic Resistant (or vice versa) will result in Cold Resist 93%.
 
@onderduiker Thanks :). From my own experience, it indeed doesn't happen much. When it does happen, I usually tend to leave him alone, since it slows me down too much. Exception being when he is the first one my merc started to target, in which case he is often already almost dead by the time the rest goes down.

I wouldn't mind seeing more 'results' from other people ;). So keep them coming folks :).
 
Very interesting read here. I too wud like to get more optimal running times but my skills aren't that great.
@T72on1 those CS p7 2 seal times. Are they with a Blizzy? At some stage I'm gonna have to move my Blizzy up to CS for better xp. ATM she is 95.75 and when I get to 96 I've decided to either try CS 2 seal running or convert to Blova for Baal running. (If it wasn't for those CI Skellies in Baal Wave 2 I think Blizzies wud hit 99 no probs.) Any advice wud be appreciated.
 
Yes, they are with a Blizz Sorc. And on p8 actually, must have put p7 there because it's a more common setting due to rune runs. For me personally I got xp much faster there than on p8 AT runs from level 94 or so on. It probably depends on the level of your gear, although I don't have Death's Fathom or Nightwing's Veil either, and only had 3 - 4 skillers when I started out there iirc.

Baal would be a lot slower in terms of xp.
 
So how do your runs go? I have experimented with the sorc in CS but those CI OKs are a real pain. Also the randomness of boss packs around seals means I am sometimes swamped and very hesitant to get right in there. How do you deal with crowding? Or do you abandon the run? (I am HC btw)
 
CS is very chaotic, much more so then AT for example, which is really predictable. So yeah, for me it was also very intimidating at first. After getting used to it though, I didn't find it so terribly difficult to stay alive. Mind you that this is with CtA though. I wouldn't even think about doing those runs without.

I almost never abandonned a run. Sometimes skipped the Vizier seal if it was too crowded and Fanatism was around. Although even then it was more a matter of thinking I'd loose too much time dealing with it, not because I thought it would be lethal. Also very rarely stopped my run if Infector spawned with Conviction and CI.

As for the CI OKs ... they can be a pain, but don't waste time having your merc kill them. Just kill what you want to kill (which is just the seal bosses and, sub level 97, also big packs around those) and move on. Seals can indeed be very crowded, but you'll learn where to position, how to snipe Vizier and Infector and just move on, ... Take it slow early on, certainly in HC, and try to get faster once you get familiar with the choatic nature of CS.

Fire resist and fire absorb are key in CS. Make sure you have fire res maxed and at least one source of fire absorb. I was using a Dwarf Star ring for it. Another source is Hellmouth gloves. Infernostride boots could also be a good option, since with them you can get your fire res as high as 85%. For a while I was playing with Dwarf Star but only 66% fire res, and the difference with Dwarf Star and 75% fire res was quite big, so ...

My merc needed quite some pots before I was able to give him a Fortitude armor, increasing his damage and hence his leeching a lot. He had maxed fire res. Giving him a Steel Shade helm could help keeping him alive, although you'd be hard pressed to give him leech elsewhere (assuming you are using Insight on him), except for a CoH armor.

Let me know if there is anything else you want to know. And kuddos for getting so high in HC already.
 
The best source of fire absorb by far is the Rising Sun amulet. You can have even have fire res around 0% and be completely immune to almost all fire attacks. Even better, fire will heal you!
 
I wouldn't mind seeing more 'results' from other people ;).

Twist my arm why dontcha! Just kidding, I've been away from the spreadsheets for the past couple days but now I've got them again. As Gripp said in his post, I too tend to take an approach that focuses a bit more on comfort rather than straight efficiency (ie I ended up skipping shrines on Nihlathak runs since it's much more linear without them).

LK p7 (dual campfire): 28s (picking up gems/GC/SC)
RoF superchests p7: 14.5s (non-enigma Assassin, focused only on runes), 19s (Telebarb, picking up SC/GC/Circlets/Gems/Runes etc)
Pits p1: 80s (Zerker, not a huge sample size though)
Pits p8: 90s (Windy)
CS p8 (2 Seals): 48.8s (Blizzard/Blova sorc), 60s (Javazon)
CS/Diablo p1/p7: 100s (Blova, small sample size though)
Baal p8/p3: 3m25s (Blova), 2m45s (Javazon)
Baal p1/p3: 2m30s (Blova, smaller sample size again)
Nihlathak p8: 28s (Blova) - as Nanomist said, S+E times are the killer, ~10s right there for me.

That's all I've got recorded, but I'll have Trav numbers and Cow numbers too by the time the RFL is over, so I'll add those in once I have them.
 
just wanna say I'm always impressed by the numbers you guys put up

I'm pretty sure I'm futzing around in my stash between runs for as long as your runs actually take
 
@T72on1 - Keep in mind most of those times are with thousands of runs and pretty optimized characters for their respective jobs. I'd say for the most part I tend to flirt with that magical threshold Gripp was talking about before you become truly efficient, but never really crossing it.
 
Ok .. when/where are we going to get a table to compare areas with people and their times! That way you have one place to look and say, ok, I can currently do X, the top people can do Y, how much difference or improvement do I have to go?
 
I don't have many areas where I've timed runs, but here's what I have (I don't use run counters, so it's been stopwatch, hitting stop after tabbing out to mule in GoMule, i.e., not as precise as run counter):

p7 LK: Sorc: ~26 sec/run (all runes, flawless gems, jewels, SCs/GCs, rare rings & circlets)
p1/p8/p3 Baal: Trapsin: 3:40 per run (Ral & Hel+ runes, jewels, SCs/GCs, interesting uniques and rares)
p8 Pits: Trapsin: ~60 sec (all runes, flawless gems, jewels, SCs/GCs, interesting uniques and rares)

The LK numbers are from a few years ago, when I aimed for 2000 LK runs with a Sorc from my 7x7. I rolled a killer map (both fires right by WP), and I really pushed for speed. That experience actually made me move away from timed runs. I was a bit stressed by being so focused on trying to get 140 runs in during an hour -- I had to get up and take a short break after each one hour set (and often didn't quite hit the goal). Not conducive to long sets of running.

I haven't run so aggressively focused on time-per-run since, but have done a couple extended sets with 99er Sin where I had stop watch running to try to streamline run times. The Baal times are over 8.5 hours of runs, so pretty accurate. She is untwinked, so extra 3 skillers and Arachnid's would almost certainly speed up times. Those +skills would definitely make Baal drop faster, and probably Lister and Ventar also. She also killed bosses on WSK2 and WSK3 often. So pure Baal runs and twinked optimization would probably bring 3:25 within reach.

On Pits, her map was not great (and same untwinked caveat). Faster times are definitely doable. She focused on bosses and large mobs, not full clears.
 
I've lost some of my old times, but here's some recent and a few old I know:

Pits P7: 75s Javazon (RFL , picking gems, crafting runes, jewels, few rares and uniques. Killing boss and other bigger packs, Also stopping by at the Tamoe Highland's carver camp

Pits P1: 80-82s Singer Barb (few different batches and bigger MFO batch. All falling to that. Don't remember map specifics, where's my notes at?! Could be improved, and I was thinking to roll that map)

Travincal P3: 22,5s (picking same as above, but small sample. Let's see what it is during the RFL round two.) Old times with another sorc were a few seconds slower.

Baal P8/P3: 2min47s Javazon (small sample, where's my MFO performance? I'm willing to do this again, room for improvement for sure.

CS/Diablo P7: 1min34s Hammerdin (from my 99er. I didn't use counter for 99% of the time, but recorded some small batch here).
 
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