Concideration for endgame runewords

[Arjan]

Since I started doing LK runs with my first character and the high end runes start dropping a bit more then I was expecting I find myself thinking about the end game runewords.
Because this is my first time I run the game with the ladder rune mod better words are available, so this is the first time I actually can use those really cool ones.
what are your conciderations when making a CtA, HOTO or Chains for example?
- Do you make them in Elite items, making them mostly for your higher level characters?
- Do you make them for one character or do you plan them for more and choose the item accordingly?
- What order do you make them? top to bottom or just pick the ones you can make as early as possible?

I am thinking about making the CTC as soon as possible, but maybe I should wait for chains first? If I make a CTC I need to alter my set up so I get more +skills and less +class skills so that's going to be a little puzzle.

 

[maxicek]

Do you mean CtA = Call to Arms?
CtA = War Scepter with Paladin skills / Crystal Sword
HoTO = Flail
Chains = Elite light armour - Most poeple go Dusk Shroud / Archon Plate

 

[Arjan]

Do you mean CtA = Call to Arms?
CtA = War Scepter with Paladin skills / Crystal Sword
HoTO = Flail
Chains = Elite light armour - Most poeple go Dusk Shroud / Archon Plate

Yep, ment Call to Arms.

So you actually try and make them in such a way you can use them early on other characters with lower strength req?
I understand HOTO is a caster weapon so damage doesn't really matter, but CtA has decent damage bonus but you don't use it as such most of the times as first choice weapon?

 

[frozzzen]

By CTC I'm guessing you are refering to CtA (Call to Arms)? It's extremely high impact runeword. I'd prioritize it over CoH 100%. There is also borderline no overlap between runes used for both of those (amn ral mal ist ohm vs dol um ber ist) so use whatever you can get faster. HotO is super useful too, but since Vex is 1/2 of Ohm I'd only make it after CtA.

I think from endgame runewords you should aim for:
Priority:
1. Sur Ber Jah - save for Enigma (low requirement base)
2. Gul Vex Ohm - save for Call to Arms (low requirement base)
3. Lo - make Grief Phase Blade

Once you have Enigma, two Bers go towards Infinity (4os eth elite polearm) and Jah for diamond bow Faith.
Once you have Call to Arms, you can either cube Gul Vex Ohm for Grief or save Ohm for future Faith and Vex for Hoto (low requirement base - Flail).
Second Lo goes to non eth Fortitude (Dusk Shroud for requirements, Archon Plate for popular choice).

Those give you best bang for the buck, after that's debatable.

CoH would imo be like 5th or so Ber. Ber is most useful rune overall so take care of them.

 

[LouB]

You also need to consider what character you are going to be using the most and what skills it will be using. Faith is a great bow, but if you aren't going to do a bow wielding Amazon or use a rogue for a mercenary then you probably don't want to make Faith. I made mine for my Ranger Paladin and have used it on multiple rogue mercenaries as well as a Druid Hunter. If all I was going to do is make it and put it in a stash then it would be a waste of the runes.

Look at the rune word level and generally you want to find an item to put it in around the same level so that you can start using it as soon as possible. You also need to look at the strength and dexterity of that item and see if you can equip it. Grief is usually made in a phase blade for a Paladin, but the 136 dex requirement has to be planned for or you might have problems being able to equip it.

Call to Arms was a waste of a runes for me as I only got a +1 to BO and the result it gave my Paladin wasn't worth it. I think most of us use CtA on nonbarbarians.

I cubed two Sur and made Chains of Honor and it's been a great armor for me. I put it in an Archon plate 103 strength so any character can use it. Then again if all you are going to do is barbs it might make sense to put it in an ornate plate.

Grief and Death are two great weapons that are clearly end game weapons.

 

[NorthDakota]

but CtA has decent damage bonus but you don't use it as such most of the times as first choice weapon?

That's right. For 99% of builds, CtA is used on weapon switch and never used for attacking. It is used purely as a buff stick. The reason for this is that there are just better options for attacking weapons for any character you might use it on. So you use it for buffing - You want to be able to equip it on any character with any stats, so you should find a base with the lowest requirements possible. Crystal sword is a favorite due to requiring only strength and only 43 strength, whereas a flail would also require dexterity which can be a pain on some characters who have zero invested into dexterity for any equipment, wasting stat points that could otherwise be used for Vitality. The other downside for using it in a flail is that many casters use HotO in a flail, so when you swap to buff with CtA, and then swap back to HotO, there is no visual difference displayed on the character in game, resulting in occasionally accidentally doing runs with CtA out and gimping your caster character.

An ilvl 40+ War scepter can get 5 sockets and has a 55 strength requirement, slightly higher than a crystal sword, however it can also spawn with +3 Holy Shield on it. This is IMO the best base for CtA because in the case that you put the CtA on a paladin, you can save skill point investment into holy shield, which would ultimately save up to 5 skill points (holy shield + the 4 prerequisite skills) on some builds. Take for example on an auradin using zeal, you really just need charge, so you save 3 skill points this way on a skill heavy build. Ultimately you could end up looking for this base for quite some time so many people just opt for crystal sword as they don't want to wait and for the price of mal ist ohm it's not so unreasonably expensive that you will probably easily afford to make more in the future when you do find that good base. War scepter does have a max of 5 sockets I believe, so if you find the +3 holy shield war scepter with an ilvl of 40 or above, it will get 5 sockets from larzuk 100% removing one layer of rng.

It's a minor optimization but if you're risk averse and take your time with these "big" runewords it has minor payoffs for your planning.

I've seen some meme builds that use CtA as an actual attacking weapon, like on a bowazon, then you get a pretty decent bow and you have your weapon swap for something else as well instead of being locked into having CtA there. These builds can do stuff like put Naj's Puzzler on weapon swap, which has teleport charges, giving you a janky setup where you don't need enigma, have battle orders, and teleport (kinda). imo this isn't really worth it but to each their own. I'd rather just use enigma on bowazon, it's too good for the run times

 

[snickersnack]

Good responses so far, especially @frozzzen's, but I'll add a bit.

- Do you make them in Elite items, making them mostly for your higher level characters?
- Do you make them for one character or do you plan them for more and choose the item accordingly?
- What order do you make them? top to bottom or just pick the ones you can make as early as possible?

For high runes, usually I'll use elite item bases, but not always. I made Enigma in a light plate so that the strength requirement wouldn't be a hindrance. It really comes down to how much you value some stats (damage, defense, etc) versus low stat/level requirements. Since Enigma has +defense instead of +% defense, elite armors aren't that much better than exceptional or even normal armors. Likewise, since Grief has +damage instead of +% damage, the base damage doesn't matter much and Phase Blades are the most popular base item.

I generally make high end runewords in a base that allows it to be used by multiple characters. I took a long (~10 year) break from D2, so I'm not nearly as rune rich as some of the members here. I'm sure that many here have made the pricier runewords for niche uses, but you probably shouldn't do that right away unless you just really want to. If it makes you happy and you have fun with it, then that's all that matters.

I don't pay any attention to order, aside from what @frozzzen posted above.

I'll also add that when I did a restart for D2R, I went ham on LK runs and made Infinity before any other high end runewords. I'm still 100% happy with that choice. My light sorc is a bit weak since I don't have skillers or even something like Skin of the Vipermagi, but that Infinity is sooooo sweet.

 

[NorthDakota]

Okay but what about infinity? You don't even talk about it here, but it requires almost as much runes as Enigma and is one of the biggest reasons to run LK!!

What polearm base do you use?!

The answer is of course, THRESHER. The best base. Thresher is the one true base for infinity. It's true, there will be those who argue with you but they do not know the true power of the thresher. It is by far the best base. BY FAR. Empirical science data will tell you it's true. Is it the most damage? No. But guess what? Hitting often is so good for life leech. Practicality demands a thresher. Also the stat requirements mean that you can use it earlier on mercs (right away at level 63!! CV is level 91 PREPOSTEROUS). Do you want to wait till you die of old age leveling? NO. You want to wear it on your supple nipped fresh level 63 javazon walking into hell for the first time and hit fast and do lots of damage in a balanced fashion with a THRESHER. THE BEST BASE.

Look at these requirements for commonly used Infinity bases!!

Weapoon                Ethereal Str Requirement
-----------            -----------
Colossus Voulge        200
Cryptic Axe            155
Giant Thresher         178
THRESHER               142!

A colossus voulge should be struck from consideration because of this:

1. A2 merc hired in normal - equips ethCV lvl 91, no +str gear
2. A2 merc hired in nm - equips ethCV lvl 93, no +str gear
3. A2 merc hired in hell - equips ethCV lvl 95, no +str gear.

Gross.

An eth Cryptic Axe is a slower weapon base [10] instead of the [-10] of the thresher, meaning a2 merc auras will take longer to activate and leech will happen less frequently especially if they're getting slapped around and getting put into hit recovery. But obviously the requirements are lower than other options which means at least you'll be able to use it on characters who need it.

I will concede that a giant thresher may warrant consideration #1 it looks sexy as hell I mean look how sleek it looks. Also it does more average damage (literally 0.5 more average dps ) and it's just as fast as a thresher (which I posit is the best). But the staaat requirements! Best case scenario is that you hired an act 2 merc in normal, in which case your mercenary can equip it at level 78, 15 more levels to struggle through than you would with the regular ol' thresher. If you've hired your merc in Nightmare, he has to wait until level 81 to equip it.

Now that's without strength on any of his gear. Yes it's possible that you will have gear at the ready to use for him to equip it. It's also a possibility that you will be like me, make infinity in a CV, and then panic each and every time you're leveling a character that would use it, putting Amethysts into plain armor just to try to get him to equip it, and then he's dying because his gear is bad, and then you're sad because you've denied the power of the thresher.

 

[WoRG]

LOL, I posited that exact scenario the other day when someone asked whether they should 'waste' time racking for an ethereal 4sox Thresher...

Another high-end RW that is often made in a low-end base is Beast, so that any character can be a Werebear, or for that summoning necro to buff his army...

WoRG

 

[NorthDakota]

LOL, I posited that exact scenario the other day when someone asked whether they should 'waste' time racking for an ethereal 4sox Thresher...

Another high-end RW that is often made in a low-end base is Beast, so that any character can be a Werebear, or for that summoning necro to buff his army...

WoRG

Dude when I looked at my notifications and saw it was YOU replying to me, I was PRAYING you weren't about to dumpster me with some deep knowledge I didn't have about this XD Horray validation!

 

[snickersnack]

Okay but what about infinity? You don't even talk about it here, but it requires almost as much runes as Enigma and is one of the biggest reasons to run LK!!

What polearm base do you use?!

The answer is of course, THRESHER. The best base. Thresher is the one true base for infinity. It's true, there will be those who argue with you but they do not know the true power of the thresher. It is by far the best base. BY FAR. Empirical science data will tell you it's true. Is it the most damage? No. But guess what? Hitting often is so good for life leech. Practicality demands a thresher. Also the stat requirements mean that you can use it earlier on mercs (right away at level 63!! CV is level 91 PREPOSTEROUS). Do you want to wait till you die of old age leveling? NO. You want to wear it on your supple nipped fresh level 63 javazon walking into hell for the first time and hit fast and do lots of damage in a balanced fashion with a THRESHER. THE BEST BASE.

Look at these requirements for commonly used Infinity bases!!

Weapoon                Ethereal Str Requirement
-----------            -----------
Colossus Voulge        200
Cryptic Axe            155
Giant Thresher         178
THRESHER               142!

A colossus voulge should be struck from consideration because of this:

1. A2 merc hired in normal - equips ethCV lvl 91, no +str gear
2. A2 merc hired in nm - equips ethCV lvl 93, no +str gear
3. A2 merc hired in hell - equips ethCV lvl 95, no +str gear.

Gross.

An eth Cryptic Axe is a slower weapon base [10] instead of the [-10] of the thresher, meaning a2 merc auras will take longer to activate and leech will happen less frequently especially if they're getting slapped around and getting put into hit recovery. But obviously the requirements are lower than other options which means at least you'll be able to use it on characters who need it.

I will concede that a giant thresher may warrant consideration #1 it looks sexy as hell I mean look how sleek it looks. Also it does more average damage (literally 0.5 more average dps ) and it's just as fast as a thresher (which I posit is the best). But the staaat requirements! Best case scenario is that you hired an act 2 merc in normal, in which case your mercenary can equip it at level 78, 15 more levels to struggle through than you would with the regular ol' thresher. If you've hired your merc in Nightmare, he has to wait until level 81 to equip it.

Now that's without strength on any of his gear. Yes it's possible that you will have gear at the ready to use for him to equip it. It's also a possibility that you will be like me, make infinity in a CV, and then panic each and every time you're leveling a character that would use it, putting Amethysts into plain armor just to try to get him to equip it, and then he's dying because his gear is bad, and then you're sad because you've denied the power of the thresher.

I agree that thresher is the ideal base, but it seems that you did not address the GPA. Did I just miss that, or is that in its own upcoming post?

[Edit:
And, to be clear, I did make my Infinity in an eth 1.07 GPA, but I was looking for a thresher rack and I got impatient. I made the mistake of running LK for runes before racking the base, and while looking for a stable thresher rack, I got this very nice GPA, so I used it. It's still great, and I'm happy with it.
]

 

[NorthDakota]

I agree that thresher is the ideal base, but it seems that you did not address the GPA. Did I just miss that, or is that in its own upcoming post?

[Edit:
And, to be clear, I did make my Infinity in an eth 1.07 GPA, but I was looking for a thresher rack and I got impatient. I made the mistake of running LK for runes before racking the base, and while looking for a stable thresher rack, I got this very nice GPA, so I used it. It's still great, and I'm happy with it.
]

Holy crap I forgot about the GPA entirely rofl.

Alright actually the reason I forgot about it is because I've never really had to consider building infinity in it and haven't included it in any writeups I've done ANYWHERE for some reason I think it's because I haven't had to debate about it, usually people are building in CVs because they're easier to socket/more common so I've thought a lot about that, and then people have a hard on for giant threshers of course, and I recently was looking at Cryptic axes for something else.

But I think you must already know that GPA is quite good. It might actually be my #2 pick! It's got big average damage, middle weapon speed, and str requirement is low! 169! Pretty alright. normal merc equips at 73 normal or 75 hired in nightmare. Very reasonable. My supple nipped level 63 javazon still doesn't equip it though, sooo...

If I was sick of trying for the sockets on eth threshers (and you can have really soul crushing RNG trying to get one to drop in the first place and then socketing it in the cube can be even more soul crushing), and hit 4os on a gpa, I'd probably do it. Like the main thing is that transition to hell, it's really easy to get to 70/71 in nightmare without great gear. So at worst you're maybe struggling for an act or 2 or just pressing for levels at NM baals for a bit longer to get that power bump. Let's be real you don't need infinity in the first place, it's just if you're a bit insane about things and really like twinking characters. But yeah, CV is straight out, you don't have to be insane about things to hate this one.

Buuuuut if you're crazy and taking the steps to look at 1.07 bases for example.. then I think you should face the insanity head on and settle for nothing less than a thresher! I mean it's a grind you only have to do once. I never miss an opportunity to link my (almost) perfect superior 15% ED 1.07 eth thresher Infinity I mean just look at it:

Spoiler: Really great Thresher

BUT. I will say you're probably the only forumite active that has a 1.07 eth GPA infinity, and I imagine it's a quite insane weapon. Serious style points I think. I kind of want to see it. You got a picture???

 

[snickersnack]

@NorthDakota Yeah, you get it. It was definitely my #2 pick, but when it dropped, with 4os, no larzuk as I recall, I was sold. I had already found a duriel's shell, so I popped a pammy in that, and I was off to the races.

 

[WoRG]

LOL...1.07 superior 15%ED eth 4sox Threshers: not just for Infinity anymore!!

Spoiler: Another really great thresher

Rolled perfect %ED, aura, and CS!!! AR bonus not perfect, but good enuff for me, I was quite happy!! Took several dozen rerolls, but the runes are cheap!

WoRG

 

[NorthDakota]

LOL...1.07 superior 15%ED eth 4sox Threshers: not just for Infinity anymore!!

Spoiler: Another really great thresher

View attachment 75300
Rolled perfect %ED, aura, and CS!!! AR bonus not perfect, but good enuff for me, I was quite happy!! Took several dozen rerolls, but the runes are cheap!

WoRG

This is definitely getting off topic a bit now -- way off topic. I don't have another 1.07 eth thresher but I've thought about booting it up to try again, but I barely use insight on any characters in the endgame. Okay so hear me out, you gotta get a 1.07 eth halberd or war scythe for the initial level 27 insight, THEN you get also get a 1.07 eth battle scythe and put it on your merc at level 33 for a merc that absolutely BLASTS through nightmare.

 

[d2lover]

This is definitely getting off topic a bit now -- way off topic. I don't have another 1.07 eth thresher but I've thought about booting it up to try again, but I barely use insight on any characters in the endgame. Okay so hear me out, you gotta get a 1.07 eth halberd or war scythe for the initial level 27 insight, THEN you get also get a 1.07 eth battle scythe and put it on your merc at level 33 for a merc that absolutely BLASTS through nightmare.

No, eth 1.07 Partizan (or for that matter 1.14d partizan) are the best bases, use Twitchthrow+PA and a LL helmet (Wormskull or Undead Crown) and you have a big hitter.

Normal Diablo and to an extend nightmare Diablo and maybe Soul infested areas are the only places where you would need resistances, and guess what you still can socket the ll helmet with a Ort rune.

The damage is just so huge and is equippable at 27

If you somehow need the aura more than the damage from the merc, use whatever base you find, it will hardly matter at all

 

[WoRG]

Ummm... eth Bill does better damage than eth halberd/war scythe, and is equippable by lvl27 merc even if he is bare ass naked... maybe switch to eth battle scythe at lvl31 (or right away if you use Twitchthroe) if you want a bit more speed at the cost of a bit of damage, but I'd hold off on the eth partizan until lvl43, when Treachery becomes available for more IAS... It's not like you NEED the damage from the partizan yet, as this should happen in Act5 NORMAL

We are pretty far off-topic here... for a reversal of things, I'll mention that I've used Malice and Steel, very low-end runewords, in elite bases for endgame vs. PI (OW ftw!) in tourneys before...

WoRG

 

[d2lover]

If you somehow don't have access to 1.07 Threshers, Giant Thresher is better than Thresher, because it has higher mindmg and the same avg.

But because of how 1.07 eth status works, 1.07 Thresher IMO beats 1.07 GT

The requirements are a factor to consider, so all in all for me: Thresher best base, and best farmed in 1.07 and socketed in this patch (takes like 30runs to get 0soc eth Thresher which gets guaranteed 4 from Larzuk in 1.07)

 

[Arjan]

Well, this thread has been a great source of information and things to concider!

so my mission will be to:
- start looking for etheral Treshers
- start looking for crystal swordsand for phase blades
- start looking for a diamond bow
- keep doing LK runs for all the nice runes I need to make all these runewords

at this point I am playing 3 characters (I am planning to do numerous septs. Yes, I am addicted to D2) a furyzon with a A2 merc so the infinity comes first. 2nd is a freezealer pally with a A1 merc so the Faith is on my list for her (and the chains and Last wish for him). 3rd is a blizzballer. She has an A5 merc. Not sure what to do with him yet. Might like that Last Wish on him an give him 100% CB. HOTO would be nice for her. I do have the runes and a flail, but I am not in a hurry to start making words.

I've been taking notes on this thread (please... keep adding more information and going off topic as much as you like) and am going to concider what I want to do next.... probably just keep collecting stuff as much as possible

 

[d2lover]

Well, this thread has been a great source of information and things to concider!

so my mission will be to:
- start looking for etheral Treshers
- start looking for crystal swordsand for phase blades
- start looking for a diamond bow
- keep doing LK runs for all the nice runes I need to make all these runewords

at this point I am playing 3 characters (I am planning to do numerous septs. Yes, I am addicted to D2) a furyzon with a A2 merc so the infinity comes first. 2nd is a freezealer pally with a A1 merc so the Faith is on my list for her (and the chains and Last wish for him). 3rd is a blizzballer. She has an A5 merc. Not sure what to do with him yet. Might like that Last Wish on him an give him 100% CB. HOTO would be nice for her. I do have the runes and a flail, but I am not in a hurry to start making words.

I've been taking notes on this thread (please... keep adding more information and going off topic as much as you like) and am going to concider what I want to do next.... probably just keep collecting stuff as much as possible

if you have a crystal sword rack, it will never drop phaseblades, it just doesn't work this way

edit: oh I misunderstood you, nvm, gl hunting