WW: Total # of Attacks on 4/4 vs. 4/6 claw set-up

Speederländer

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WW: Total # of Attacks on 4/4 vs. 4/6 claw set-up

Ok folks, so for 2 claws both hitting the max WW speed, what is the number of possible attacks I'm getting vs. a single target? And, when I have one claw hitting the max BP and one claw hitting one BP slower, what happens to that number of attacks specifically? Do I lose one possible attack? More? None because of some calculation issue in the coding? I don't see this discussed in the IAS thread or FAQ. I also don't see anything on the specific mechanics of missed breakpoints on the barb forum.
 
there are 25 frames in one second

so total possible amount of hits in a second possible with 4/4 = 25/4 = 6.25 hits each claw

with 4/6 you get... 6.25/4.16 maximum hits possible
 
I've been wondering the same thing myself. Unfortunately I just haven't had the time to dig through the technical information on it. Relaying what I do know, I hear that there are a number of informative posts on the Amazon Basin on the mechanics of WW, and that they are very involved.

Something else I've heard is that the claw break points are wrong... but this is only from one person who had a lot of other misunderstandings, so I don't know how much trust to place in that statement.


Elwood - that works great for total number of hits possible, but there must be two targets in order for Whirlwind to get two attacks. This means at the 4 fpa break, you are actually getting only one attack every 4 frames (and apparently there is some technical information to figure out which claw actualy strikes).

I have no clue what happens when they are at different frame breaks.
 
Elwood said:
there are 25 frames in one second

so total possible amount of hits in a second possible with 4/4 = 25/4 = 6.25 hits each claw

with 4/6 you get... 6.25/4.16 maximum hits possible

It's not so simple. I'm talking vs. a SINGLE target. Then it becomes a function of weapon range, and how fast WW actually moves, yes? How far is the distance from when your weapon can FIRST strike the target to the last point a strike is possible. Your WW traces out a path across the screen. Only a portion of that path yields the potential to strike. Therefore, does it really matter if you're sporting 6/4 instead of 4/4? It depends specifically on the applicable strike zone length and how long it takes to traverse it. You then back out speed and the such. Keep in mind, the computer just shows a spinning animation. In reality, it's just a circle moving across the screen that when it encounters a target, chance-to-hit is triggered at a particular rate determined by the WW speed. You might not normally GET an extra strike in on a 4/4 over a 4/6 simply because the geometry doesn't allow it.

The speed at which your WW moves across the screen is an important number. Does anyone know this?
 
i see.

well that is some complicated **** man, i really doubt you will find someone to help you there. i'm sure i've seen information on weapon ranges but ww speed and length? can't say i have...
 
Confucious says: "If it works for you, who cares?!"

Man, i dont mean to sound disregardful, but have you tried both (4/4 and 4/6)? If you did, did you notice any difference on duels or in general play?
If so, then go for what you think is best.

By saying this i am by no way trying to offend or something anyone in the forums.
My point is that it may be a case of excessive overkill for the matter and you may not even notice a difference during game play.

This was my useless, lame idea :buddies:
 
No one knows for sure. I've heard so many different explanations on how ww works.

that works great for total number of hits possible, but there must be two targets in order for Whirlwind to get two attacks. This means at the 4 fpa break, you are actually getting only one attack every 4 frames (and apparently there is some technical information to figure out which claw actualy strikes).

No one in the barb forum believes this. For some reason the assassin forum does though.

I also read a LONG explanation of ww mechanics in the barb forum that said the first 8 frames of ww always hit at 4 frame regardless of weapon speed. This could mean that weapon speed isn't a factor in certain situations.

Anyway, keep searching for an answer, but you're going to hear a ton of different stories. Good luck finding the truth.
 
John Garrano said:
Confucious says: "If it works for you, who cares?!"

Man, i dont mean to sound disregardful, but have you tried both (4/4 and 4/6)? If you did, did you notice any difference on duels or in general play?
If so, then go for what you think is best.
I'm sure everyone has their own reasons, but for me I enjoy figuring this stuff out more than actually playing the game. :jig:

Speederländer said:
The speed at which your WW moves across the screen is an important number. Does anyone know this?
My understanding is that it is your walking speed. If I end up finding anything to the contrary I'll be sure to pipe up.

Zangeif said:
Anyway, keep searching for an answer, but you're going to hear a ton of different stories. Good luck finding the truth.
Yeah, no kidding. Whirlwind may just be the final frontier when it comes to important game mechanics. :lol:

Zangeif said:
No one in the barb forum believes this. For some reason the assassin forum does though.
No one in the barb forum believes this? Guess I might have to step my toes in there, in addition to checking the other resources I was considering. It's good seeing all this interest right now. Maybe this time we'll actually make it to the bottom of this.
 
From information by Hammerman, Ruvanal, Myrddin, Loschonorg, Zath, and others. Any mistakes I've made in interpeting it are my own though. Oh, my aching head.

From what I've been reading, a 4/6 WW will result in something like this-

Frame 4--attack with weapon1. I'm not sure which that would be, but lets say it's the 4 frame weapon.

Frame 8--attack with weapon2. If two targets are in range, attack a 2nd target with weapon1.

[The first attack checks always happen at frames 4 and 8, regardless of speed.]

Frame 12--attack with weapon1. If two targets are in range, attack a 2nd target with weapon2.

Frame 16--Nothing. A minimum of 6 frames must pass for weapon2 to be eligible to attack again.

Frame 20--attack with weapon2. If two targets...blah, blah, blah.

This is very approximate. There's a lot of information, some of it ambiguous, and much of it mixed up with code that I have no hope of understanding. (Ilkori will know what I'm talking about. :lol: )The key points:

--Dual-wield will only get more hits than single if multiple targets are in range.

--WW checks for hits only on multiples of 4 frames.

--The first two attack checks come at frames 4 and 8 no matter what.

--After that, the eligibility of a weapon to hit is affected by its speed.

Those are all points I'm pretty confident in. The rest...?

There's more I could say, but I've got to go. Later.
 
BIGeyedBUG said:
From information by Hammerman, Ruvanal, Myrddin, Loschonorg, Zath, and others. Any mistakes I've made in interpeting it are my own though. Oh, my aching head.

From what I've been reading, a 4/6 WW will result in something like this-



This is very approximate. There's a lot of information, some of it ambiguous, and much of it mixed up with code that I have no hope of understanding. (Ilkori will know what I'm talking about. :lol: )The key points:

--Dual-wield will only get more hits than single if multiple targets are in range.

--WW checks for hits only on multiples of 4 frames.

--The first two attack checks come at frames 4 and 8 no matter what.

--After that, the eligibility of a weapon to hit is affected by its speed.

Those are all points I'm pretty confident in. The rest...?

There's more I could say, but I've got to go. Later.

That's very ineteresting and useful information. The issue then becomes how long are you in range. It goes back to the total range of your ww and the time it takes you to traverse the distance from when your target FIRST comes into range to when it's LAST in range. If you can express this number in terms of frames, you can then apply your information above to give us a working model from which to construct something to test.
 
By the way, I never did see a solid number given for the number of hits possible on a given target. Like I said in the other thread though, it looks like it's purely a function of WW speed, range, and target size. W/R speed apparently has no effect--although it might have in earlier versions of the game.

When I can stand to look at the sources again, I'll try to add more to my little outline.
 
:love:

Looks like BeB beat me to it and already knows a lot more. I learned quite a bit from reading that. I don't suppose there is a spot on the AB where all those threads are linked to? - using a search for something like this isn't nice (though I suppose restricting to Ruvinal would help).


Since I seem to be way behind in the technical mechanics, I'm going to try my hand at a general formula for figuring out how many hits are possible on a single pass. Angle brackets <> are to indicate note numbers since I had to make a few assumptions. Also, I tended to make these some kind of hybrid between pseudocode and excel functions.

Formula for stationary targets in your line of attack
speed = [movement speed of WW in yards/frame] = ??
range = [radius of attack in yards] = 2 <1>
size = [radius of target in yards] = 1 ? <2>
length = [travel distance where target is within range] = 2 * (range + size)
time = [time available to strike target in frames] = length / speed
fpa = [frames per attack] = 4
attacks = [maximum number of attacks possible, though you will probably get one less] = roundup( time / fpa )

Ok, now for the tricky one. This is for targets who aren't directly on your line of attack. Any formula not mentioned here is the same as the previous.

Generalized formula for stationary targets
skew = [distance of target away from path in yards] =< range + size <3>
length = 2 * sqrt( (range+size)^2 - (skew)^2) )
attacks = roundup( time / fpa ) = roundup( (length/speed) / fpa )

Notes
  1. Claw range is a base of 1 with a rangeadd of 1 (despite what the arreat summit says). At least, this is what I have heard from several sources, and this would mean that the total range is 2. The reason I am mentioning this is that a former dueler (and someone I had a great number of arguements with) claimed that a claw could never hit someone who could hit them with another range 2 weapon. For these calculations, it is assumed to be perfectly round, though at some point I know it will get discritized.
  2. I don't know how big stuff is - anyone have a source for this?
  3. Notice their center can be outside the range, as long as they have a size larger than 0, but you would be lucky to get one attack. The <= simply means less than or equal to, and you would need to know this in order to solve the equation.
 
Hi,zangief pointed me to this link.

I am from the barb forums,I am in the works of a comprehensive ww guide,follwing is a section from it.

WIAS SECTION:

FACTS WORTH NOTING:

Wias/bp only effects the value of check frequency, no other factor is involved in deciding how often a weapon checks for target(s).The other factors have to do with the duration of checks, we'll explore them later.Also see differentiation of checks,attack,hits now.

The first check of ww with all weapons lwbp/non lwbp occurs at the 4th frame & the second occurs at the 8th,then the wias/bp factor kicks in & the check frequency is set to what is alloted at the weapon breakpoint that is a check every 4 frame with a lwbp weapon or a check every 6th or 8th depending on the weapon/bp.
---------------------

RANGE SECTION:

Differentiation of Check,Attacks & Hits: (Crucial)

Checks: This refers to the game mechanism checking for the presence of target(s) in a 5 tile radius (check radius*) at the check interval (depending on the wias/breakpoint) in order to intiate the attack phase. This is the true & definable ww frequency & only wias/bp effects its value. Hence you should always say check frequency or cf instead of attacks per second/frames per attack. A lwbp weapon gives you a 4 frame check frequncey or 6.2 cps (checks per second)

Attacks: With the target in check radius,it must also be in weapon range (attack radius*) then, the weapon proceeds to attack the target i.e a chance to hit check is carried out on the target.If it is out of weapon range the attack is skipped.

Hits: When the chance to hit check is sucessfull, attack is converted into a hit,resulting in the target taking damage.


*CHECK RADIUS; The 5 tile (game distance unit) radius in which the game checks for target at due check-regardless of weapon range..

*ATTACK RADIUS: It is the distance from which target(s) can be attacked. Weapon range determines this value. The longer the range of the weapon, the longer the distance from which a target can be attacked. Attack radius & Attack duration are semi-correlated:

ATTACK DURATION: It is the effective duration between the point of time a target enters your Attack radius to the point where it exits the radius. In other words: It is the time you have, while in whirlwind-, to get your attacks off on the target, since it will get out of range sooner or later, due to your dynamic attack. Pay attention-crucial point coming up: A larger radius(longer weapon range) would cause a target to enter your range early & exit late, thereby increasing the time it is in range for you to get more attacks on it.

In simple words:Target stays in range longer, giving you a good chance of an extra hit or two. Apart from weapon range your Whirl Velocity(effective runwak speed) & chill/slow factor affects Check Duration- see Maneuverability.

Note: This applies to the general target behavior: A target (PVM & PVP) tends to either; remain stationary or move in the opposite direction, or move at a lesser pace in your same direction, meaning either way it is generally always bound to get out of range, very rarely does a target move in your direction & matches your speed & heading, allowing infinite attacks on it.

SUMMARY:

FACTOR
Attack Radius

VARIABLE EFFECTING (+increasing effect -decreasing effect)
Weapon Range +

FACTOR
Attack Duration

VARIABLE EFFECTING (+increasing effect -decreasing effect)
Weapon Range +
Final whirl speed based on run/walk speed including heavyarmor/shield factor &/or being slowed/chilled factor-(minus)
Target size* +
Target status-stationary/moving-movement speed & direction:dynamic variable*

*Final whirl speed is inversely proptional to Attack duration,the slower you move due to wearing heavy armor/shield & having base runwalk &/or being frozen the longer the check duration. I'd like to address a misconception on being frozen in pvp under meanuverability, be sure to scheck it out.

*Target size- there are three targets sizes-large,normal,small-bosses etc.. are big,players are normal & monsters like flayers etc..are small.Larger targets occupy more tile units(game distance units) therefore they stay in range longer allowing more attacks on them.

*Target status: The most attacks possible are on target(s) that are moving in your whirl direction,they stay in range longer, next come stationary targets,the fewest attacks occur on target(s) moving in your opposite direction-e.g; (BVB)

illkori's & some others posts are interesting,I am studying those.

BTW,just to clarify,ww speed is the same as your walk speed & affected by all factors including frw from gear/skill & heavyarmor/shiled factor.

Razgriz
 
dont have an assa but since ww is main skill on barb i tested dualwield ww with my latest barb

left hand : beast ba
right hand : echoing war sword of anthrax (100psn dmg & only item with psn dmg)

did 1 ww vs other barb without a shield & here's the result :
3 hits ->
1st hit : freeze but no psn dmg -> beast
2nd hit : freeze & psn dmg -> war sword
3rd hit : freeze but no psn dmg -> beast

dualwield ww with 1 fast weapon & 1 slower weapon & both weapons hit the same target while there was no other target near

its a simple test u can do yourself if you really dont believe that both weapons can hit & they dont need the same speed for it

make sure u have no psn on your equip
use chaos as your left claw & any claw with psn dmg as 2nd claw
do NOT cast venom & do 1 ww vs barb/assa/any other char (best without block)
 
rikstaker said:
Hi,zangief pointed me to this link.

I am from the barb forums,I am in the works of a comprehensive ww guide,follwing is a section from it.



illkori's & some others posts are interesting,I am studying those.

BTW,just to clarify,ww speed is the same as your walk speed & affected by all factors including frw from gear/skill & heavyarmor/shiled factor.

Razgriz

A really good summary of the basic rules that I had to try and figure out on my own, afaict. One thing I'm glad you mentioned that I forgot to, is the effect of target motion on number of hits.

The R/W thing was a bit of muddled thinking on my part. Several sources suggested that immense amounts of faster R/W had no negative impact on their WW's effectiveness. It seems clear that what they referring to was the rate of damage, rather than to possible number of attacks on a pass. This would make sense, as one could then make very brief, fast whirls, DoD style and have equivalent or better damage over time. Does this jibe with what you know?

The pattern of checks for different WW speeds is more interesting than I thought too. All of the not-divisible-by-4 speeds alternate one check at the expected point, with one check as if they were one speed faster (not counting frames 4 and 8). So WW6 ends up at 4, 8, 16, 20, 28, 32, 40... And WW 10 at 4, 8, 20, 28, 40, 48, 60 and so on. Makes sense, otherwise they would be the same as the next speed slower, but I didn't catch on to that when I posted yesterday.

I'm curious about what your take on the dual-weapon rules are. Everything I read was clear that dual-attacks on each of the checks will only happen if multiple targets are in range (and never on frame 4). Zangeif mentioned that the experts on the Barb forum say otherwise. What's the thinking over there?
 
Dahmer said:
its a simple test u can do yourself if you really dont believe that both weapons can hit & they dont need the same speed for it

I'm not sure if this is clear, but nobody is saying that both weapons don't hit during a WW. The real question is whether both weapons can hit during the same frame in a WW, if there's only one target in "range". I can't tell from your test whether you've actually answered that question.
 
BIGeyedBUG said:
A really good summary of the basic rules that I had to try and figure out on my own, afaict. One thing I'm glad you mentioned that I forgot to, is the effect of target motion on number of hits.

The R/W thing was a bit of muddled thinking on my part. Several sources suggested that immense amounts of faster R/W had no negative impact on their WW's effectiveness. It seems clear that what they referring to was the rate of damage, rather than to possible number of attacks on a pass. This would make sense, as one could then make very brief, fast whirls, DoD style and have equivalent or better damage over time. Does this jibe with what you know?

Faster runwalk does have an effect,but its indirect as I said,it effects how long target is in weapon range,be too fast & it will be out of range when checks occur.In duels like BVB frw doesnt matter,since it evens out,as you will have him in range as long as he has you.Fast short whilrs is a good practice in pvp,but not pvm-more whirls mean more mana & there is a delay between ending & restarting your whilr,so you loose out on dmg over time to a barb whirling normally.

BIGeyedBUG said:
The pattern of checks for different WW speeds is more interesting than I thought too. All of the not-divisible-by-4 speeds alternate one check at the expected point, with one check as if they were one speed faster (not counting frames 4 and 8). So WW6 ends up at 4, 8, 16, 20, 28, 32, 40... And WW 10 at 4, 8, 20, 28, 40, 48, 60 and so on. Makes sense, otherwise they would be the same as the next speed slower, but I didn't catch on to that when I posted yesterday.

Yes thats true,The first two checks occur without the bp factor into play,all subsequent check delays however are dependent on it.

BIGeyedBUG said:
I'm curious about what your take on the dual-weapon rules are. Everything I read was clear that dual-attacks on each of the checks will only happen if multiple targets are in range (and never on frame 4). Zangeif mentioned that the experts on the Barb forum say otherwise. What's the thinking over there?

Quite a few people have carried out tests including myself & following is the summary against single target in range:

-weapon 1 only hits in the 4th frame
-weapon 2 & 1 hit on the 8th

What we have arrived at is:As long as the target is still in range when the second weapon get it's hitcheck, you'll get two hits(1st hits with it).
--
One more thing to note is:Some experts carried out test with modded standard dmg weapons eg:121-122 & compared the dmg done to target when dualwielding & singlewileding it.Dualwielding resulted in ~100% more dmg on single target when using long whilrs(well past the 8 frame before target enters range).Link

Thats credible evidence that both weapons were consistently hitting in the same frame.

This can mean one thing,that for dualwieding, short whirls rob you of dmg,since only one weapon hits in the 4th but in all subsequent checks both weapons can hit in the same frame.

Razgriz
 
I'm sure WW has to be able to hit twice in the same frame. Otherwise Claw/Shield WW Asns would dominate Claw/Claw ones.
 
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