ww mechanics, experts please read

[Zangeif]

ww mechanics, experts please read

OK the assassin forum has believed for a long time, that when you ww while dual wielding only your primary weapon will hit unless there are 2+ targets in range. This means that in pvp dual wielding accomplishes nothing, because you will only have 1 target in range. Only your primary weapon will hit. Granted, a lot of assassins still use claw/claw because you save dex by using claw block and because claw block can block magical attacks. However, I see no reason for a barb to use beast/botd instead of a botd gpa.

Anyway, I think the assassin forum may be wrong on this point, but I want to get the issue settled once and for all. Check out this recent thread where they explain some very technical aspects of ww. Let me know what you think.

http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=285531

 

[Dahmer]

techinical, mhm, well, u can find out pretty easy imo, your normal weapon in 1 hand & in 2nd hand get 1 weapon with psn dmg (normal socketed with emerald of any kind will do) & just swing
think it's pretty easy to find out with weapon setup like that to see for yourself that both weapons can hit

*edit*
quick test
left hand = beast ba
right hand = echoing war sword of anthrax (100 psn dmg)

ww vs barb without shield & got 3 hits
1st hit -> frozen but no psn dmg
2nd hit -> frozen & psn dmg
3rd hit -> frozen but no psn dmg

only psn dmg i had was from the 2nd weapon so u can see they both hit

 

[kakarot]

yes mate, BUT i have 1 word for you : MASTERY!

things aren't that simple, trust me - on most occasions botd+beast is the best choice. imo using gpa would leave u in the cold when agains melee, but that's just me. and u can't use both axes and pole, period.

 

[Zangeif]

OK I've heard people testing that too, but go check out the post I linked. They are actually looking at the game code. There have been many posts in the assassin forum regarding this, and each time they come to the conclusion that only primary weapon hits. I tested it the same way you did on a single zombie in blood moor, and it looked like both hit to me since he got poisoned. Still, no one over there agrees. How can EVERYONE in the assassin forum think this, is there any truth to it? I tested it with claws too, 1 with poison 1 without, got the same result as you.

 

[Taz]

http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=276633&page=1&pp=25

My conclusions would be:
- dual ww alternates betwen weapons (using them equaly)
- dual ww atacks ~100% more

 

[ToThePoint]

dahmers test is pretty simple and disproves that - quite frankly the assa forum in 1.10 is full of junk with only the very rare person that actually seems to know anything.
has that same test been carried out with sins to see if its character specific?

 

[Zangeif]

Like I said, I tested it with claws, and both seemed to hit (1 claw had poison dmg, same as Dahmer's test). I did this test a few months ago and posted it in a thread about ww but no one seemed to care. They would rather listen to technical game code analysis than simple in-game testing.

Every time I try to post something useful on the asn forum I get into a huge argument because people there are still treating guides that were stickied a year ago as the word of God. It doesn't matter if I disprove everything they say, or that every top assassin on the realms disagrees with them, they never listen.

I don't get it, everyone there is 100% sure that only primary claw hits.

 

[mcm]

Zangeif, that happens in this forum too.

 

[kakarot]

as far as i remember 'double wielding weapons result in cca 100% more hits on 1 target standing still'!!(for what it's worth)

but mate, you've tested it, dahmer did also, you've both come to the same conclusion! end of story, in my book! who gives a f*** bout those half illiterate nerds 'trying' to read the code(take it from a computer sience student, code can be very deciving to an untrained eye).

i'm writing this 'cos i'd like to help, and i see this troubles you.

best regards, k

 

[Herald of Doom]

Afaik, Dahmer's test is correct. As long as the target is still in range when the second weapon get it's hitcheck, you'll get two hits. Not taken from any code, just observation

HoD

 

[rikstaker1]

Afaik, Dahmer's test is correct. As long as the target is still in range when the second weapon get it's hitcheck, you'll get two hits. Not taken from any code, just observation

HoD

Confirm that hq.Same tests carried out,one weapon packing fire damage other packing poison,3-4 fire swirls counted each pass regardless of which hand it is equipped on & target always poisoned on pass.Fire swirls are easier to count.

Razgriz

 

[mcm]

An even better test is to make consistently damaging weapons on a single/open game and record the damage done per pass for single weild versus dual weild. See other threads for the specific results, but the summary is that ~100% more damage is done to a single target when dual weilding.

 

[King1]

Let the Assassins believe false information! It just makes them easier to defeat in PvP .

 

[Taz]

An even better test is to make consistently damaging weapons on a single/open game and record the damage done per pass for single weild versus dual weild. See other threads for the specific results, but the summary is that ~100% more damage is done to a single target when dual weilding.

How frequent u hit with 2 weapons compared with one weapon a single target:
Best i can imagine is as follows:
- a target : defenceles... a naked player woud do
- 2 weapons with range 3, hitting last bp, and with as little differnce betwen max and min dmg possible ( 5 soketed flail with 2 shaels an 3 jewels 8 min dmg)
- ww target using 2 such flails 20 times, record the damage it takes each time and get the medium dmg
- ww target using 1 such flail 20 times, record the damage it takes each time and get the medium dmg
- finally u can compare the values
My guess is the medium damage in the first case will be ~50% times higher than in second case.

And all this testing just to prove that the quote from arreat summit is correct or not. Strange but true.

I just tried this on realms and got this results:
1) using 1 flail:
- 123 123 121 125 125 100 100 123 124 123
medium dmg: 118
2) using 2 flails:
- 248 249 248 272 249 248 149 220 269 220 249 199 223 249 195
medium dmg: 232

So the medium dmg when dual wielding was ~96% higher than the first case.

Other mentions:
- i tested dual wield 5 times more as i saw the values varied a lot.
- target was a stationary naked player
- i ww-ed from some distance right through him
- my listed dmg was 141-142
- my ar was ~3.5k and i was higher lvl than target
- i had no other source of dmg (cb, ds etc)

Yes, there are factors making the dmg values vary:

I knew about the 95% cth cap, beside this:
- the low dmg inflicted
- the fact that listed dmg varies (141-142)
- the big number of hits per pass
- the possible "rounding downs" in dmg calculation,
may also explain the variations.

, but they are not that big factor and they loose their importance as the number of passes is higher.
I mentioned them just to give an idea to anyone willing to test this how to make the test more accurate.
However i think the test is relevant.

 

[rikstaker1]

K to summarize:

AGAINST SINGLE TARGET IN RANGE:

Frame 4-Weapon 1 only hits.
Frame 8-Weapon 1 & 2 hit.

So 3 hits instead of 2:50% more attacks on short 8 frame whirls.

Note that Taz used longwhirls-he managed 100% more attacks, since target entered his range well passed their 4th frame & it is credible evidence that frame 8 onwards both weapons managed hits in the same frame on a single target.Good work Taz.

So lets use the observations from those tests & explore the dmg possibilities of 3 setups-botd/beast, botd cb, botd gpa over time against non barb-melee characters:

STANDARD MELEE SETUP:
Coa with bers
Duress
Highlords
Ravenfrosts
Gores
Verdungos
Draculs
Anni

WW level 28:166% ed
Mastery level 26:153%
Fana level 9:186%(Botd/beast only)
Assuming 50 max from charms
Strength:190
CS/DS:60%(Wrath,raven,mastery)

BOTD/BEAST:

400% Botd damage: 1431-4611
Avg: 3021-Gross:4833

270% Beast damage:708-2488
Avg: 1598-Gross: 2556-When both hit-damage=4833+2556=7389

BOTD CB:
400% Botd cb(2handed):2649-5542
Avg:4095-Gross:6552

BOTD GPA:
400% Botd: 2101-6090
Avg:4095-gross:6552

Frame: Dmg:botd/beast::botdcb::botdgpa-:- Cumulative dmg:botd/beast::botdcb::botdgpa

Frame4:4833::6552::6552-:-4833::6552:6552
Frame8:7389::6552::6552-:-12222::13105::13105
Frame12:7389::6552::6552-:-19611::19657::19657<==
Frame16:7389::6552::6552-:-27000::26209::26209==>
Frame20:7389::6552::6552-:-34389::32761::32761
Frame24:7389::6552::6552-:-41778::39313::39313

Damage factoring *0.17 pvp penalty & max DR:

Frame4:628::556::556-:-410::556::556
Frame8:628::556::556-:-1038::1113::1113
Frame12:628::556::556-:-1666::1670::1670<==
Frame16:628::556::556-:-2295::2227::2227==>
Frame20:628::556::556-:-2923::2784::2784
Frame24:628::556::556-:-3551::3341::3341

NEUTRAL COMMENTS:

- Up until frame 12,twohanders have an edge over dualwield damage wise. That is aroundabout the typical avg length of your whirls in pvp.

- It is possible & necessary in tests to modify weapon dmg to ascertain hits by consistent damage but one can forget that 2handers do more damage than 1handers & fail to factor that in & conclude that dualwield gives you 100% more dmg which is inaccurate in-game.100% more attacks/hits yes-but not damage. Besides we are not comparing dualwield vs wep/shield here-its dualwield vs twohanders as initial posts indicate I figure.

- Note, CB & GPA have same damage but GPA has range advantage over cb & botd/beast,it can manage a hit at certain intervals where the other two setups wouldn’t. ‘Game checks for targets in a five tile radius(game distance units-not same as weapon rang)-but attacks it only if it is in weapon range’

- The dmg boost from fana is really considerable, botd beast get 505% ed total whereas 2handers get 319%.

- One more thing to note is ar boost:80% from fana,which can boost ar to a high level especially if there is abundant base coming from charms.

- Axes & cb have an advantage in versatility over gpa. You can put on a resists shield/wizzy/silence depending on the need against casters. Gpa suffers miserably in this criteria.

- Beast packs 25% openwounds, duress gives 33%,dracs 25 & gores 10%:Total 93%.GPA & CB manage just 68%. That is a big margin.Beast gives stat bonus in ~40 strength,thats worthwile as well.

Conclusion: Dualwield is superior against a single target.

Razgriz

 

[rikstaker1]

Damage factoring *0.17 pvp penalty & max DR:

Frame4:628::556::556-:-410::556::556
Frame8:628::556::556-:-1038::1113::1113
-
-

minor correction in the BOTD/BEAST dmg on 4th frame there:

Damage factoring *0.17 pvp penalty & max DR:

Frame4:410::556::556-:-410::556::556
Frame8:628::556::556-:-1038::1113::1113
-
-

Razgriz

 

[ilkori]

*pokes toes in*

'Morning everyone. Thought I'd stop in to see how the assassin gripe post was doing.


I've had a mild interest in this topic for a while (read: I haven't had the drive to do my own tests, or to look into the game code for myself). On that subject, the modded tests are far more convincing to me. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the posters here, so I'll take everything with a grain of salt. I do, however, have one question: Has anything changed with WW mechanics since 1.09? If they have, it might help correct at least one misunderstanding.

Speaking of misunderstandings - you are all probably wondering why on earth it has taken us so long to find this issue out, and to do a full-on investigation. The short answer is that we have had our hands busy. Between misinformation on the Arreat Summit, the LCS, and the general D2 populace, there have been a lot of bad rumors to clean up and things to test. There is a reason we have a decently long FAQ update thread stickied at the top of our forum - there is a lot to know and fix.

There have been many posts in the assassin forum regarding this, and each time they come to the conclusion that only primary weapon hits.

No... you misread the conclusion every time. BIGeyedBUG (BeB) mentioned this in the other thread. The claim is that "both claws do not hit in the same frame" which has been addressed by several posts from rikstaker. Furthermore, both BeB and myself have always referenced our sources, and often mention that we have not done testing, modding, or code searching ourselves, but are repeating the current understandings of another forum.

Like I said, I tested it with claws, and both seemed to hit (1 claw had poison dmg, same as Dahmer's test). I did this test a few months ago and posted it in a thread about ww but no one seemed to care. They would rather listen to technical game code analysis than simple in-game testing.

A few months ago? I don't even remember the post, and right now I can't find it (at least I don't want to invest the time needed to find it). Again, as we have always said, "we've always known that both weapons *can* hit, it's a matter of whether it happens in the same frame or not."

quick test
left hand = beast ba
right hand = echoing war sword of anthrax (100 psn dmg)

ww vs barb without shield & got 3 hits
1st hit -> frozen but no psn dmg
2nd hit -> frozen & psn dmg
3rd hit -> frozen but no psn dmg

only psn dmg i had was from the 2nd weapon so u can see they both hit

The way this was worded/constructed it is difficult to tell whether you meant that hit #2 got both attacks or just the poison. The other results posted here seem to indicate that it is the first case, but that is still not entirely clear from the initial reading.