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Vessel of Hatred

Which of these three to use?

S

sasamix

New member
Nov 19, 2009
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Which of these three to use?

Hi, I am making a Sword WW Barb and I was wondering which of these three weapons I should use.

EBotD in a CB

Eth Death in a CS

Grief in a CS

Thanks for any help!

Edit: Dual-wielding
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

dual wielding?

go Grief + Beast and use Axes.

sword barbs are generally BvB's and they use shields.
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

well i've been trying to sell my grief cs for a while and nobody will buy it because even though it is perfect 40 ias, it doesn't allow them to reach a certain ww breakpoint. i would guess death would have the same issue leaving botd as your weapon of choice for both hands. its the best weapon anyways.
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

emitnulb said:
i would guess death would have the same issue leaving botd as your weapon of choice for both hands. its the best weapon anyways.
Click to expand...

No it's not.

Grief adds a damage independent of the base weapon, therefore almost only range and speed of the base weapons matter. Yes extra damage is always extra damage, but you have to consider if it's worth the extra stat spend in strength and dexterity, and first when speed and range is no issue.

Range 3 + -10 wsm is what we try to copy from the BerZerker axe.

So we use the Flamberge, it has low stat requirements, so it opens for extra investment in vitality, it reaches the final breakpoint of speed and it has a range of 3.

A grief flamberge tops your suggestion in damage pr. time even when the extra stats of eBotD is taking in to the equation.

So grief is the best weapon, by far, just don't be Lazy and make sure you choose a proper base for it.

Kind regards
Krim


 
Re: Which of these three to use?

I checked and 22506 should be possible, or is that unrealistic?

Kind Regards
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

A Flamberge? Most barbs have enough +stats gear on so the requirements really shouldn't be an issue, and certainly not a end-all selling point.

So why a Flamberge? Is it the only weapon that will hit the last WW breakpoint? Also, how much weapon IAS is needed to push a colossus sword(not blade) to the last breakpoint? Thanks.
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

zerker axe has 0 wsm...
but if you go flam greif you will have faster attacks and more hard stats to use on vitality.
greif/fury and duress has best overall dmg for aq bvb ww barb.
 
Last edited:
Re: Which of these three to use?

How does it save you any stats? My arreats face and enigma give me enough stats to use anything, so im not seeing how a flamberge saves stats?
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

well a ba takes 147 total stat points to weild.
weapon str+ dex-(20dex+30str)= stats needed, 147 for a ba.
138+59-50= 147
using the same formula for flamburge
70+49-50= 69...this is a differance of 78, that 312 life.
sure its less cuz gear but if you bvb yer going to want to use fort...these goes upwards of 90 str points.
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

emitnulb said:
well i've been trying to sell my grief cs for a while and nobody will buy it because even though it is perfect 40 ias, it doesn't allow them to reach a certain ww breakpoint.
Click to expand...
huh?
a grief CS needs, iirc, 39%+ ias to hit 4-frame ww's.

Kordova said:
zerker axe has 0 wsm...
but if you go flam greif you will have faster attacks and more hard stats to use on vitality.
Click to expand...

you mean a Zweihander, not a Flamberge.

any grief Zweihander will hit the 4-frame ww breakpoint. they are generally used as a stopgap weapon by sword BvB's while they hunt up a godly +400/40ias CS grief.

Kordova said:
greif/fury and duress has best overall dmg for aq bvb ww barb.
Click to expand...

rubbish.

for a start, a BvB shouldn't ever be dual wielding in BvB duels (you NEED that stormshield in BvB). for a BvC, Grief/Beast is the cookie cutter choice for a whole bunch of very good reasons.

for BvB: Fury/Fort is proven to be the highest average damage setup, however it assumes you won't hit more than once every 8 seconds (getting the full OW timer).

Fury/Duress is just plain silly as a BvB combination. just those two items is 99% OW. unless your doing strange things like using Hsarus boots and belt, you'll be cracking over 100% OW and wasting equipment slots doubling up on the same mods. on the other hand, Fury/Fort/Dracs/Gores is 101% OW and a nice wodge of off-weapon %ed and is a proven BvB setup.

Grief/Fort is the standard cookie cutter BvB weapon/armour choice, and it's not without a lot of merit.

Grief hits nice and hard, along with having those oh so important -25% target def and +20% deadly strike mods.

Fort is the standard armour for a reason: damage and defence. the CtC chilling armour, +life/lvl and resists are just gravy.



 
Re: Which of these three to use?

i can't say if you are right or wrong about the ww breakpoint, but i am just saying that multiple people have turned me down on trades for my cs even though it has max ias and the reason atleast two of them have cited is that it won't let them hit one of their ww breakpoints. i have never played a ww barb or investigated the breakpoints so i can only go based on their word.
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

ya and cs flam and zweihander all have same base weapon speed...-10.

i totally missread this. http://www.purediablo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301690

furyzerk/fort was best dmg. overall
and you dont "need" a ss for bvb, inface lots of bvbs ive seen still dualwield, its not my choice but < 60% of bvb dont use shield, and cry when i do...
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

Kordova said:
furyzerk/fort was best dmg. overall
and you dont "need" a ss for bvb, inface lots of bvbs ive seen still dualwield, its not my choice but < 60% of bvb dont use shield, and cry when i do...
Click to expand...

lolwhut?

a BvB without a shield is a BvC, not a BvB.

i doubt what you're seeing are actual, purpose built BvB's. they sound more like BvC's without a shield option. proper BvB's are actually quite rare to come across in pub duel games, mostly because the only opponents a BvB can realistically do well against are Barbs (obviously), non-FoH pallys, non-fissure druids and pure ww-sins. pretty much all other opponents will cream your average BvB (mostly because of a BvB's complete lack of resists).

i regularly have to grab my barb when someone (usually a hammerdin) is sorbing like a whore or generally being a dork.

when said someone is a BvC, they always, always crai foul when i put on a shield ("omg, j00 bring a bvb to duel a bvc you loser". ignoring the fact that it was their barb sorbing my 'sin to oblivion and being an NK nerd that got me to bring out my barb in the first place).

most BvB duels happen in private games, there is probably a private BvB game on your realm which all the good BvB players go to. on west NL the game is RPK/<i aint tellin>.

bottom line: if you're building a melee character that's specifically designed and geared to do mirror-match whirlwind duels, why on earth wouldn't you use a shield?

Stormshield is the first choice of the choosy for BvB's for a number of reasons. i've seen people try other options in the shield department, but they always seem to come back to the SS. 35% DR means you hit the 50% DR build goal that all BvBs should hit with only the SS and a good dungos/SoE.

the cookie cutter BvB generally looks something like this:

helm: up'd arreats or some insane rare visionary barb hat or an insanely lucky Blood Hat craft (%DS) or a Guillaumes.
armour: Fort, Duress, Prudence, Stone
rings/ammy: either full angelics or a highlords + 2x ravens
wep: Grief, Fury, godly rare fools wep, e-death cleaver, e-razors edge.
shield: Stormshield, there is no substitute.
belt: dungos, SoE, Hsarus, open wounds belt.
gloves: dracs or rends.
boots: up'd gores or hsarus.
charms: ar/lifers and max/ar/lifers. some might use a couple of mastery/lifers (insane defence clowns do this), anni, torch.

as you can see, they rely on massive defence (30k+), 75% block, 50%DR and ~20k+ AR. some BvB duels can take a while to complete.



 
Re: Which of these three to use?

Kordova said:
ya and cs flam and zweihander all have same base weapon speed...-10.
Click to expand...

no, that's not entirely correct.:coffee:

CS is (10)

Zwei/flam is (-10)

20 pt spread actually

Kordova said:
furyzerk/fort was best dmg. overall
Click to expand...

....only in theory. Even Rik explains individual results may vary.

Kordova said:
and you dont "need" a ss for bvb, inface lots of bvbs ive seen still dualwield, its not my choice but < 60% of bvb dont use shield, and cry when i do...
Click to expand...

I disagree.

Peace Y'all



 
Re: Which of these three to use?

ha yer right about the speed, i was on a buddys computer and he has a ridiculous resilution...i couldnt see that there wasnt a (-)
public duels most ppl who call themselves bvb use greif/beast/fort/CoA.

eh dmg dealt is dmg dealt, is ow reduced by dr%?? if not then owdmg is > big hit dmg that canbe halved.
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

Kordova said:
public duels most ppl who call themselves bvb use greif/beast/fort/CoA.
Click to expand...
that's a BvC playing with a fort switch against (probably) smiters and hammerdins (maybe windies too), NOT a BvB.

Kordova said:
eh dmg dealt is dmg dealt, is ow reduced by dr%??
Click to expand...

no, OW is not reduced by %DR.

Kordova said:
if not then owdmg is > big hit dmg that canbe halved.
Click to expand...
which doesn't explain the widespread effectivness of Max-Damage barbs (grief/fort/+max charms) or Titan builds (max strength for damage).

the problem with Open Wounds is: to get the most out of each hit, you have to let the 8-sec OW timer run it's course.

so, if you're only hitting once every 8 seconds, yes that OW damage will rack up very, very quickly.

however, if going with, say, a fury/fort/dracs/gores setup, you don't want to get into a mass whirl exchange with a grief/fort/dracs/gores barb. sure, you might hit each other three times in the exchange, but you've wasted all that OW timer while they have gotten in their big damage hits.

oh yeah, add in an up'd e-toothrow for "acceptable BvB armours" listed in my post above.

in any case, most BvB's cap out at around ~1.2k PvP damage against 50%DR (not counting CB or OW damage). Titans rarely get much over ~1.5k (unless their charmset is truly spectacular. i duelled one titan dude who had 4x 14 max GC's and the rest were 3/20/20's. he hit stupendously hard)



 
Re: Which of these three to use?

all my bvb duels last well over 1 minute on average.
even if ow is reset each time you hit there is a base % that the dmg startat for ow.

so if ow takes 8 seconds and yer dealing the prospected 533 ow dmg thats 66.625 dmg a second, so lets say you hit once every 3 seconds, thats 199.875 dmg extra between each hit.
 
Re: Which of these three to use?

It's not that OW isn't good, it IS good.

But if you used your example of 199.875 damage in 3 seconds, consider 598 damage after hit 1 with greif/fort 3 seconds later. The OW bonus diminishes quicky if that is all you are based on.

Also, 35% OW with gore/dracs fire alot. So when you add that to a few multi hits with greif/zerk, it owns all.

Think about it. Is getting 7 points more average damage, based on a damage that must have 8 second intervals between hits, really going to be better? No.
But it is good, and you will win some duels.
 
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