what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

[mysticc]

what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

what is the best pvm bowazon build these days? I see a lot of guides focusing on javalins... but not many on bows.

 

[crawlingdeadman1]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

1) what do you want to do with it?
2) what kind of budget do you have?

 

[mysticc]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

I basically want to pvm. I want to have the option to do some magic finding in wsk if it's possible.

As for budget, I can probably afford quite a bit. While high runes aren't worth much these days, I probably have ~120hr worth of stuff to trade to make the build.

 

[crawlingdeadman1]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

check out these two guides to start with. one and two.

i know you said bow, but have you considered a bow/jav hybrid? if you think you may try it check out this guide and this guide. i personally think the gunslinger is the character i've had the most fun with as evidenced by my link "my zon" in my signature. the fishyzon is one of the least item dependent builds for a zon and is focused on wsk magic finding so you should check that guide out no matter what you decide to make.

 

[mysticc]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

Thanks for the guide links. I have read the first one already.

The one thing it doesn't mention is... is the faith build > wf + faith on merc build. It never answered this question and compared them, so I'm not sure which is better.

Nonetheless... I have a 100% perfect +3 gmb faith in every single stat... so I may as well use it. I also have windforce as well already. I could experiment I guess. I don't have a crusader (or some other bow) faith to play with for the merc though. I'd have to make one or trade for one.

Right now, I just hit level 45. I have been putting 1 point in all the passives, 1 point in all the cold-type arrows and I moved all the way to strafe and maxed it (It has 19 or 20 points now can't remember).

I'm not sure what to max next, as I have 11 points in reserve. I could max guided arrow, penetrate or freezing arrow. If I go freezing arrow, I thought about also getting the cold arrow synergy for the extra damage... but then I have to commit to a build that is definitely hitting level 9x. I guess the last cold arrow points can wait.

Of course... penetrate might not be needed and I can rely on +skills of all my gear when I am done. I'm not sure what the reality is there... like if that will be plenty or will I really need more hard points in this skill.

 

[mysticc]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

Okay, I still need help.

I have done some testing, now that I actually have a zon at level 82, and I can't say I am too sure where to put my points.

Here is my gear:
Faith
Fortitude
Cat's Eye
Shako (for now I guess)
Razortail
Laying on Hands
War Travs
Ravenfrost
Rare Dual Leech Ring

I have a few comments/questions:

1) Using faith makes a big difference. Not only is it easier to equip, and you can use it sooner, it gives such a massive AR boost that I think it's just downright required considering how hard things are to hit in this game.

With close to 400 dex, I am still 82 or 86% to hit enemies in act 5, like baal minions or whatever. I am using a near perfect Raven Frost, a rare ring with close to 100 attack rating and +12 skills on top of penetrate (1 only hard point).

I think I may need to start putting hard points into penetrate at this point as 155% is not enough. I may need to get closer to 200% before I get into the 90% range.

Windforce just isn't an option unless we max penetrate, and I'm not sure we have enough skill points to do that.

2) Highlords is often recommended over cat's eye... but I see no noticable difference... if there is any difference at all. The deadly strike doesn't seem to matter much, so the faster run walk on cat's eye seems to come out on top for me... because that is VERY noticable and welcome considering this toon doesn't use an enigma.

3) A lot of guides say to max valk, or put ~17 hard points in it. Mine rarely dies as it is, and I only have 1 hard point in it. Is maxing it really necessary? Between a level 13 valk and level 13 decoy, I have my tanking needs already met. Or is there some other benefit I am missing here?

4) Is fortitude really doing 300% increase? It must be doing some weird math, because it takes my regular damage at 1025-3142 and turns it into 1262-4207... which is more like +33% as opposed +300%.

I get more damage from the 15-25 damage bonus on War Travelers than I do from fortitude... which suggests that min/max damage is taken into account in the formula quite early and is then scaled. I'm not sure how that 300% is factoring in.

5) Is there a way to get more damage above 1262-4207? I find in WSK, I wish I was doing more. My lightning sorc certainly does more damage, and she is geared (wealth wise) pretty much the same.

6) With this setup, my resists are lacking. The only thing I can see is to add more charms, or use something like Kira's helm. I don't get hit that much though... so maybe I shouldn't worry about it. I've died once I think. Still, getting poisoned in baal runs kind of sucks. Andy's helm can help with that.

7) With my given setup, will andy's helm or another help me reach yet another strafe breakpoint... or did I already reach it?

8) I have managed to play the game up to level 82 by only putting 1 point in all the passives and maxing strafe. I have 57 points collecting dust at the moment. What should I spend them on? Valk? Penetrate? Guided Arrow? Freezing/Cold Arrow?

9) Any other suggestions?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Rawness1]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

Okay, I still need help.

I have done some testing, now that I actually have a zon at level 82, and I can't say I am too sure where to put my points.

Here is my gear:
Faith
Fortitude
Cat's Eye
Shako (for now I guess)
Razortail
Laying on Hands
War Travs
Ravenfrost
Rare Dual Leech Ring

I have a few comments/questions:

1) Using faith makes a big difference. Not only is it easier to equip, and you can use it sooner, it gives such a massive AR boost that I think it's just downright required considering how hard things are to hit in this game.

With close to 400 dex, I am still 82 or 86% to hit enemies in act 5, like baal minions or whatever. I am using a near perfect Raven Frost, a rare ring with close to 100 attack rating and +12 skills on top of penetrate (1 only hard point).

I think I may need to start putting hard points into penetrate at this point as 155% is not enough. I may need to get closer to 200% before I get into the 90% range.

Windforce just isn't an option unless we max penetrate, and I'm not sure we have enough skill points to do that.

2) Highlords is often recommended over cat's eye... but I see no noticable difference... if there is any difference at all. The deadly strike doesn't seem to matter much, so the faster run walk on cat's eye seems to come out on top for me... because that is VERY noticable and welcome considering this toon doesn't use an enigma.

3) A lot of guides say to max valk, or put ~17 hard points in it. Mine rarely dies as it is, and I only have 1 hard point in it. Is maxing it really necessary? Between a level 13 valk and level 13 decoy, I have my tanking needs already met. Or is there some other benefit I am missing here?

4) Is fortitude really doing 300% increase? It must be doing some weird math, because it takes my regular damage at 1025-3142 and turns it into 1262-4207... which is more like +33% as opposed +300%.

I get more damage from the 15-25 damage bonus on War Travelers than I do from fortitude... which suggests that min/max damage is taken into account in the formula quite early and is then scaled. I'm not sure how that 300% is factoring in.

5) Is there a way to get more damage above 1262-4207? I find in WSK, I wish I was doing more. My lightning sorc certainly does more damage, and she is geared (wealth wise) pretty much the same.

6) With this setup, my resists are lacking. The only thing I can see is to add more charms, or use something like Kira's helm. I don't get hit that much though... so maybe I shouldn't worry about it. I've died once I think. Still, getting poisoned in baal runs kind of sucks. Andy's helm can help with that.

7) With my given setup, will andy's helm or another help me reach yet another strafe breakpoint... or did I already reach it?

8) I have managed to play the game up to level 82 by only putting 1 point in all the passives and maxing strafe. I have 57 points collecting dust at the moment. What should I spend them on? Valk? Penetrate? Guided Arrow? Freezing/Cold Arrow?

9) Any other suggestions?

Thanks for the help!

1) In the end a faith merc alongside with Windforce will crank out more damage. That's it. Anyways - You have ITD on Faith, so the chance to hit% doesn't really matter expect with bosses/ and unique/champion thingies.
Don't know why you're factoring %pierce into this.

2) The deadly strike doubles your damage, but use Cat's if you prefer it. I usely go for Atma's myself --- but the FRW is nice I guess.

3) The thing is that a Valkyrie will have full equipment at level 17, - you can let it stay at level 13 I guess, but you'd miss out on it.

4) It is counted as a offhand source, and will mix together with your other Dex% and fanatisms ed%.

5) all points into dex from the start. Crushing blow + Atma's, more deadly strike, 14 max damage GC's. Windforce and Faith set up.
Even though CB transfers only 1/2 of the normal damagie thingie, it's still worth it. LoH's are good too.

6) Get some antidotes. Not necessary to worry about resistance as it will only scale down your damage.

7) You've probably hit the last bp... the only thing you might've not hit is the last Multishot BP. Not too familiar with IAS on amazons anyways.

8) Get enough points into multi-shot - it's a goodie to have in the Chaos sanctuary
Options: IF you have razotails paired with a lvl 8 Pierce, you're allright - You don't need any more pierce% though it can help to second hit a monster.
More into that ar% + passive thing. Perhaps some more Critical strike until it hits diminishing returns. You don't seem to have any Deadly strike anyways - so you should bet on Critical strike.
Get valky to lvl 17.

9) I'd get a 3os 30frw (hellishly expensive I'd imagine) with 3x30 damage jewels set into it. Just get another helm, Shako just doesn't look good on an amazon.

 

[NASE]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

3) at level 17 a valkery will receive a rare war pike. Then she will start doing some damage - although still not all that much. Before that, she noting more then a tank. So that's where that 17 is coming from.

Now, why put points there? The main question is, where else can you put them? that's what you are asking. And the answer is simple. There are many places you can put them. And many people find a stronger valkery useful and hence put points there.
However, you can put them in other places too. There are many good alternative and if you feel your valk is strong enough, by all means, don't put more points in valk.

All I can say is that my level 24-ish valk with 8 hard points in decoy isn't hard enough and that I consider putting more points in decoy - on the other hand, I'm not running with the equipment you are running.

 

[mysticc]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

1) In the end a faith merc alongside with Windforce will crank out more damage. That's it. Anyways - You have ITD on Faith, so the chance to hit% doesn't really matter expect with bosses/ and unique/champion thingies.
Don't know why you're factoring %pierce into this.

Well, to do that, I'd have to make another faith. I'll make that a last resort. I did not bring up pierce though... I was mentioning penetrate, since that is what affects attack rating. Windforce does not have the attack rating bonus... so there is a drastic decrease in attack rating with windforce. Considering my character sheet is not 95% with Faith... I don't see how it can be 95% with windforce unless I have a bunch of AR charms and max penetrate.

I guess my concern is that while it WF would do more damage... would it hit as often as Faith? And if you maxed Penetrate to compensate, would those 20 points weaken the build in other ways?

2) The deadly strike doubles your damage, but use Cat's if you prefer it. I usely go for Atma's myself --- but the FRW is nice I guess.

Hrm. I wish numbers went over the monster's head so I knew exactly how much damage I was hitting for... so that I could see a real difference using highlords. Time-wise, it's basically the same. I don't notice any difference in kill speed switching between the two amulets

3) The thing is that a Valkyrie will have full equipment at level 17, - you can let it stay at level 13 I guess, but you'd miss out on it.

I guess I could put a few more hard points to get it to level 17. I don't need 17 hard points though, right?

4) It is counted as a offhand source, and will mix together with your other Dex% and fanatisms ed%.

I'm not sure what the offhand source mechanics mean... but my guess is that it means "divide this by 10, and that is your real number."

5) all points into dex from the start. Crushing blow + Atma's, more deadly strike, 14 max damage GC's. Windforce and Faith set up.
Even though CB transfers only 1/2 of the normal damagie thingie, it's still worth it. LoH's are good too.

Would using gore riders then actually give more damage than war travelers?

6) Get some antidotes. Not necessary to worry about resistance as it will only scale down your damage.

Yeah, that's probably a good idea.

7) You've probably hit the last bp... the only thing you might've not hit is the last Multishot BP. Not too familiar with IAS on amazons anyways.

That's good to know. It is pretty fast. The cat's eye is what takes it over the top.

8) Get enough points into multi-shot - it's a goodie to have in the Chaos sanctuary
Options: IF you have razotails paired with a lvl 8 Pierce, you're allright - You don't need any more pierce% though it can help to second hit a monster.
More into that ar% + passive thing. Perhaps some more Critical strike until it hits diminishing returns. You don't seem to have any Deadly strike anyways - so you should bet on Critical strike.
Get valky to lvl 17.

Right now, pierce is level 12 or 13 (depending if I use highlords or not). I just have 1 hard point in pierce. My guess is that I am already over 100% with the belt.

How much should I put in penetrate? This was my main concern that I raised in point 1. I don't want to max it if I don't have to. I have 57 points to "play with", so I want to spend them wisely and try to optimize them. If I gain 10 more levels, that means I have 67 points. I don't expect to reach level 92 though... maybe level 86 or 87.

9) I'd get a 3os 30frw (hellishly expensive I'd imagine) with 3x30 damage jewels set into it. Just get another helm, Shako just doesn't look good on an amazon.

Yeah, that helmet is very expensive for me. I'd have to trade away a lot of stuff to get the capital for that. The helm alone is worth 7 or 8 of my faith bows, isn't it?

What vendors sell circlets? Any?

 

[mysticc]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

3) at level 17 a valkery will receive a rare war pike. Then she will start doing some damage - although still not all that much. Before that, she noting more then a tank. So that's where that 17 is coming from.

Now, why put points there? The main question is, where else can you put them? that's what you are asking. And the answer is simple. There are many places you can put them. And many people find a stronger valkery useful and hence put points there.
However, you can put them in other places too. There are many good alternative and if you feel your valk is strong enough, by all means, don't put more points in valk.

All I can say is that my level 24-ish valk with 8 hard points in decoy isn't hard enough and that I consider putting more points in decoy - on the other hand, I'm not running with the equipment you are running.

Hi Nase!

I will put a few points in Valk. I think 5 hard points will be good enough, which takes me down to 52.

I still don't have a fantastic way to deal with physical immunes... so freezing arrow looked like the best skill to deal with those. One method was to basically spend 40 points - 20 in freezing arrow and 20 in cold arrow for the synergy bonus. Such a move commits the bulk of points though, which would leave me with 12 left to spend on penetrate, guided arrow or multiple shot... which is probably not enough to expand.

I do like guided arrow for bosses... but now I wonder how often I will use it. I can usually strafe any champion mob down just fine - there isn't a need to invest a bulk of new skill points for that. Still... without a strong guided arrow, it takes me a long time to down baal for example. A lot of people suggest 20 points for this reason.

I am confused with multishot. Do many players use both? I was under the impression that you basically picked strafe or multishot and stuck with it - not both. Was I in error? With all my +skills, what level of multishot would I need to make it very effective?

I wish I had a few more points to juggle around with. My best guess at this point in time is this:

5 points in Valk
20 points in freezing arrow
10 points in cold arrow
20 points in guided arrow
rest in penetrate

 

[zrk]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

Multi vs strafe is a heated subject. Personally, i see no need to put more than 1 point in strafe as multi tends to clear stuff faster.

 

[mysticc]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

I can see what you mean about being a heated topic. I find strafe's multi-targeting system to be very useful, and it's actually kind of rare for enemies to be bunched up together and facing in a single direction. I find with strafe, it just seeks them out whereever they are. Many of Multiple shot's arrows will also miss if you're aiming at 2 targets... where stafe does very well here too. I have a level 13 multiple shot just to test it out. I'm sure it could be better with more, and I was killing faster with strafe.

Regardless, I have already put 20 points in strafe... so the point is moot because the decision is already made on this front :/

 

[NASE]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

I do like guided arrow for bosses... but now I wonder how often I will use it. I can usually strafe any champion mob down just fine - there isn't a need to invest a bulk of new skill points for that. Still... without a strong guided arrow, it takes me a long time to down baal for example. A lot of people suggest 20 points for this reason.

I always wonder why people want to make bosses their target with a bowazon. If you want a fast bosskilling, go hybrid. Dump your remaining points in charged strike and lightning fury and chance a bit of gear and you will be more effective in boss runs.
That how I would do it anyway.

I am confused with multishot. Do many players use both? I was under the impression that you basically picked strafe or multishot and stuck with it - not both. Was I in error? With all my +skills, what level of multishot would I need to make it very effective?

Yes, using both is the best solution. The problem is that the perfect distribution between strafe and multishot isn't all that clear. However, I find 13 to be more then good enough. Try running chaos sanctuary if you don't see the point of multishot. There the monsters really are aligned well and you literally clear screens with one or two volleys.
Just makes sure your arc isn't to small and you will see that a combination is ideal.

I still don't have a fantastic way to deal with physical immunes... so freezing arrow looked like the best skill to deal with those. One method was to basically spend 40 points - 20 in freezing arrow and 20 in cold arrow for the synergy bonus. Such a move commits the bulk of points though, which would leave me with 12 left to spend on penetrate, guided arrow or multiple shot... which is probably not enough to expand.

You did consider using one of the items based solutions right? They really work just fine.

 

[mysticc]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

I don't have an atma's scarab amulet, although i got a new helmet that definitely opens up my ammy so that it doesn't need IAS anymore. So I could go with atma's scarab.

The helmet I got was a 45% ias/120% ed tiara with 27 dex. It looks sexy on paper, but it surprisingly doesn't do much more damage. Without the helm, my base attack damage is 1300-4378 (it's higher because I had a bunch of spare points that I spent into dex finally). With the helm, the attack damage goes up to 1417-4899. Yes, it's in improvement... but for the cost of such a helm? War travs, as cheap as they are, do more than double that :/

Anyhoo... I guess the bright side is that this helm replaces the Dex and IAS from cat's eye and gives even more dex and IAS in its place... so I suppose using this helmet frees up the ammy slot. It could potentially free up the glove slot as well if I can still maintain my breakpoint, so maybe it's not all bad.

I still don't see how I am going to get to 7k damage without a whole bunch of charms though.

 

[mysticc]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

Well, I got atma's scarab really cheap, and it works! It takes about 1 second to kick in, but once it does, it strips away the physical immunity. I had no idea it did that. I wonder why more people don't use it because physical immunes are a pain. I wonder if barbs make good use of it as well. Anyway, that problem was solved.

I guess I don't need to put any points in freezing/cold arrow now.

 

[Rawness1]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

8points into pierce coupled with Razortails is enough. Your AR with Windforce will remain about the same, since you have Mana leech from another source, it means you can smack on another raven.
You’ll also get Knockback from windforce, which I see you haven’t had before… Smack on a Ohm rune or 40/15, or a Shael rune. Or maybe even a max/ed jewel. (Don't know how much Ias you need. But the Krembanan guide will probably tell ya!)
This will improve your damage even more.

Keep the wartravlers, they're probably better than Gores for now.

The amplify damage actually doubles your damage, or rather gives the enemy a 100%PI penalty.

 

[zrk]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

1) In the end a faith merc alongside with Windforce will crank out more damage. That's it.

It is not quite that simple though! IF we ignore curses or pierce or AR, then faith GMB does more damage, by 10% in a strafe and 15% in a multi, at least thats what my calculations say

ED (with 500dex)
without ED in helm / with ED in helm / with strafe
faith 17.43 / 18.63 / 20.13 with strafe
wf 10.44/11.64 / 13.14
ratio 1.6 / 1.53

dam

faith 211.5 + charms = 249
wf 310 + charms = 347.5
ratio 1.395

general advantages:

faith
more dmg, 15res, +3 bow, itd, 300% ar, radius of merc auras is twice as big

wf
5% amp dmg(but then gives up 9% dmg bonus from highlord, which faith has anyway, amp not that useful with multi?), pierce(though faith user can still get 90%, which is close to WF's 95%), no Iron maiden problems in 1.12

The question then transfers to the importance of the general advantages of either build(which i attempted to point out)

 

[Rawness1]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

It is not quite that simple though! IF we ignore curses or pierce or AR, then faith GMB does more damage, by 10% in a strafe and 15% in a multi, at least thats what my calculations say


The question then transfers to the importance of the general advantages of either build(which i attempted to point out)

Don't know how you calculated that, but it's wrong somewhere - if you aren't calculating a pride+might merc. Then again, you'll lose out on the amplify damage, inbuilt knockback. The act 2 merc will run away and die like some fool, but the Archer will keep close, and will not die by IM.

Dont think your calculation are correct either way, as WF has more dex + an empty socket in the bow.

 

[zrk]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

Don't know how you calculated that, but it's wrong somewhere - if you aren't calculating a pride+might merc. Then again, you'll lose out on the amplify damage, inbuilt knockback. The act 2 merc will run away and die like some fool, but the Archer will keep close, and will not die by IM.

Dont think your calculation are correct either way, as WF has more dex + an empty socket in the bow.

So please point out the mistakes or show alternate calculations :thumbsup:
Baseless accusations wont lead anywhere! Why shouldnt one calculate pride and might from merc when they are in fact easier to keep on than faiths fanat aura(except in im!!) due to radius being twice as big. ALso, how does knockback increase damage?

The wf setup requires more str and gets the extra str from andy's face, or in a max damage setup(which i calculated) with a 45/120 helm it doesnt get the extra str and in that case it doesnt get more dex. In a max damage setup, faith will have more dex: the str req of gmb is smaller by 26, and wf gives 15 stat points. Belt wont matter as both nosferatu and razortail give 15 points.

EDIT: yes if wf is socketed with 15/40 then indeed the calculations would change(though then zon cant use andys)

Originally Posted by My calculations

ED (with 500dex)
without ED in helm / with ED in helm / with strafe
faith 17.43 / 18.63 / 20.13 with strafe
wf 10.44/11.64 / 13.14
ratio 1.6 / 1.53

dam

faith 211.5(faith + wt) + (25x3max)charms = 249
wf 310(wf + wt + razortail) + (25x3max)charms + 40ed jewel in wf = 363
ratio 1.46

general advantages:

faith
more dmg(with multi 1.6/1.46=9.5%), 15res, +3 bow, itd, 300% ar, radius of merc auras is twice as big

wf
5% amp dmg(but then gives up 9% dmg bonus from highlord, which faith has anyway, amp not that useful with multi?), pierce(though faith user can still get 90%, which is close to WF's 95%), no Iron maiden problems in 1.12, knockback

I think the highest damage build would be an 8 frame wf multi build with might/pride merc though, but with a 60/160 armor it sure would cost too!

 

[NASE]

Re: what is the best pvm bowazon build these days?

. ALso, how does knockback increase damage?

As already said, the game is more then damage alone.

Hence why knockback, leech resistances are important.

Now, try to estimate how much damage knockback, leech etc. is worth, then you can tell something with calculations.
Until then, it's all about flavour.