The PvP Thread
- Thread starter nulio
- Start date
nulio
Well-known member
I'd probably be too lazy to just set aside items that took me couple thousands of hours to find and change characters that took me years to optimize.
Especially since the most two broken old versions items are so easy to get (1.07/8 shako and 1.10s cta), that this change would mean having to respec most/all characters and that some of my favorite characters would have to change too much since they are built around some key items that I wouldn't be able to use.
I reserve the right to change my mind later on
Especially since the most two broken old versions items are so easy to get (1.07/8 shako and 1.10s cta), that this change would mean having to respec most/all characters and that some of my favorite characters would have to change too much since they are built around some key items that I wouldn't be able to use.
I reserve the right to change my mind later on
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Also have in mind that not using previous version items means some builds will get incredible power boost, and some become almost unplayable.
For one power boost is hammerdin who will be able to 2 shot possibly 90% characters out there making him incredibly tough to deal with. With beta items its 3 hit kill, and difference between 2 shot and 3 shot kills is huge.
Another powerhouse would be properly built blizzard sorc who can probably 1 shot those 90% characters unless they stack cold resistance a bit.
Bowazon becomes completely unplayable (or incredibly weak, if you prefer it said that way). BO will die in like minute and a half with perfect BO stick, and after that you are a sitting duck (still ok for 1v1 if you use cube and buff BO from inventory). Not to mention her damage would be quite low. It will be total glass cannon characters with "all-in" in damage department. She will either kill something, or die very fast (which I think is much much more likely). Well, I know bowazons were played before and were doing okish I believe, with strong damage and stuff. But before bowazon was played against sub 2k life characters, right? I believe now good amount of characters would stay above 3k life and would have dr% option switch, while bowa would stay with like 1k life... Seems like a fresh meat to me, but could be wrong.
I think trappers would become much much stronger. For one, it's still possible to maintain very high life, and her damage would be very strong since every char would have lower life.
Windy would have much easier job killing stuff around, possibly take almost half life to non dr% character when he teles into random tornado.
Duels would be much faster for sure. Overall sounds like completely different PvP, PvP that was played in years before.
For one power boost is hammerdin who will be able to 2 shot possibly 90% characters out there making him incredibly tough to deal with. With beta items its 3 hit kill, and difference between 2 shot and 3 shot kills is huge.
Another powerhouse would be properly built blizzard sorc who can probably 1 shot those 90% characters unless they stack cold resistance a bit.
Bowazon becomes completely unplayable (or incredibly weak, if you prefer it said that way). BO will die in like minute and a half with perfect BO stick, and after that you are a sitting duck (still ok for 1v1 if you use cube and buff BO from inventory). Not to mention her damage would be quite low. It will be total glass cannon characters with "all-in" in damage department. She will either kill something, or die very fast (which I think is much much more likely). Well, I know bowazons were played before and were doing okish I believe, with strong damage and stuff. But before bowazon was played against sub 2k life characters, right? I believe now good amount of characters would stay above 3k life and would have dr% option switch, while bowa would stay with like 1k life... Seems like a fresh meat to me, but could be wrong.
I think trappers would become much much stronger. For one, it's still possible to maintain very high life, and her damage would be very strong since every char would have lower life.
Windy would have much easier job killing stuff around, possibly take almost half life to non dr% character when he teles into random tornado.
Duels would be much faster for sure. Overall sounds like completely different PvP, PvP that was played in years before.
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Since I have extra time to do whatever, I've come to idea to share how do I practice certain PvP techniques from time to time in self multiplayer. Well, I usually take some weak weapons, but now I have my "training dummy" and use real gear instead. Techniques I presented in video are tri-whirl and charge/smite, basics for any melee paladin and WW character.
Ok, now someone might ask is there any point in training techniques in self multiplayer?
Honestly, I find those practices great since whirlwind can be quite hard to perform well, and I doubt someone will stand still in PvP so you can whirl in circles around him for practice, sooner or later you will find that tri-whirling is something you will practice best yourself with your "training dummy" while in PvP you will learn how to namelock and start whirling + positioning etc.
Charge/smite requires some timing to prevent someone from just teleing away from you which he will do anyway no matter how perfectly you execute this thing. I remember first time I played paladin, charge/smite felt strange, I didn't shift keys fast enough or mix them and lost namelock etc. I've done few practices in self multiplayer and after that charge/smite felt so natural to do and I was MUCH better thanks to it. Whirlwind is similar with exception that I used thousands of times in PvM, but I still lack a little bit control to make tri-whirling perfect. Whirling in PvM and PvP is different after all because in PvP you must stay in range of single unit (player) and make tight whirling either in triangles or back and forth, while in PvM you usually whirl group of creeps and don't have to play so close attention on whirlwind to be in such tight formation. Anyway, here is video hopefully at least one person will find interesting enough.
My additional pointers on training those techniques:
Ok, now someone might ask is there any point in training techniques in self multiplayer?
Honestly, I find those practices great since whirlwind can be quite hard to perform well, and I doubt someone will stand still in PvP so you can whirl in circles around him for practice, sooner or later you will find that tri-whirling is something you will practice best yourself with your "training dummy" while in PvP you will learn how to namelock and start whirling + positioning etc.
Charge/smite requires some timing to prevent someone from just teleing away from you which he will do anyway no matter how perfectly you execute this thing. I remember first time I played paladin, charge/smite felt strange, I didn't shift keys fast enough or mix them and lost namelock etc. I've done few practices in self multiplayer and after that charge/smite felt so natural to do and I was MUCH better thanks to it. Whirlwind is similar with exception that I used thousands of times in PvM, but I still lack a little bit control to make tri-whirling perfect. Whirling in PvM and PvP is different after all because in PvP you must stay in range of single unit (player) and make tight whirling either in triangles or back and forth, while in PvM you usually whirl group of creeps and don't have to play so close attention on whirlwind to be in such tight formation. Anyway, here is video hopefully at least one person will find interesting enough.
My additional pointers on training those techniques:
For whirlwind most important part is a good start. As you can see, I started with unsummon namelock + tele + instant whirling. That's the most important basic that is so hard to do in PvP either because of delay or because of small missclick. So, I could say if you want to properly start whirling, focus on that. Unsummon namelock your "training dummy", place your cursor beneath you or whenever like I showed in video, and perform single tri-whirl. Then tele away and repeat the process. Namelocking and starting to whirl should feel natural to you, you don't have time to think about that during PvP.
Whirling around potion technique
Another variation of same training. Drop potion on ground, namelock it, tele and just practice tri-whirls around it. It's similar thing as with real characters, but I feel like it's more "realistic" to have some tank to practice on and end everything with satisfying kill instead of whirling in circles till infinity. Anyway, this technique can be practiced the both ways effectively.
Charge/Smite is actually simple, all you have to do is shift keys fast as I did, even on random. Another idea is to try hold charge and switch to smite after your charge is stopped by block or miss. That is actually harder cause it requires great timing, and you have less than half second space to react. Naturally, this technique is quite effective against max block characters, while against vita you will probably just hold charge down untill you miss, then switch to smite to knockback character so you can charge again. That's why both techniques have their purpose. Timing is quite hard to find. I usually just swap keys at random and find it works good enough against block characters.
Whirling around potion technique
Another variation of same training. Drop potion on ground, namelock it, tele and just practice tri-whirls around it. It's similar thing as with real characters, but I feel like it's more "realistic" to have some tank to practice on and end everything with satisfying kill instead of whirling in circles till infinity. Anyway, this technique can be practiced the both ways effectively.
Charge/Smite is actually simple, all you have to do is shift keys fast as I did, even on random. Another idea is to try hold charge and switch to smite after your charge is stopped by block or miss. That is actually harder cause it requires great timing, and you have less than half second space to react. Naturally, this technique is quite effective against max block characters, while against vita you will probably just hold charge down untill you miss, then switch to smite to knockback character so you can charge again. That's why both techniques have their purpose. Timing is quite hard to find. I usually just swap keys at random and find it works good enough against block characters.
The time has come to turn toward rules now after PvP week is done. We said some things needs to be further discussed.
These are the rules last two pvp weeks were played with:
If anyone has any complaints about certain rule, shoot it in here. I'll start without complaining, but commenting.
3. Replenish life is capped at 50.
My question is, should we remove the cap on replenish? Is there any point of having cap on it anyway? Cap was put just because cap was on replenish before, no other reason. It is quite hard to get to 50 anyway, and if someone wants to make character with more replenish, why not then? It's not like he can make 500 replenish character or something absurd like that. I'm not even sure is it possible to go considerably over 50 without harming your character too much. I ask this because removing this rule we can make rules simpler.
5. Poison damage from charms is not capped at all.
Another rule we could remove. It was stated poison damage is not capped at all just because before it was. Since now there is no cap, we can as well remove this rule. I played poison barb this pvp week, and he is lower tier character even if you don't stack poison resist. And if you do, you can throw it to trash can, almost. If someone has anything to say about this go ahead.
7. Cold Mastery is capped at one point only for Blizzard sorceress class.
There were certain complaints about this rule, so I call upon vote about this one. Vote for is rule fine with you or is it not (even if you already said in pvp thread not long ago).
15, 16., 17. All prebuff rules
So, this is main problem it seems. First, rule is not nicely written because it causes confusion on whether it is allowed to use spirit shield + CtA on switch as prebuff or only CtA. Idea is you are allowed to use all the gear you have on character to prebuff (so if you have spirit shield on switch which function is only to buff BO, then you can use it. Or lidless wall or whatever you use), and CtA is the only item you can prebuff with from either inventory or stash.
Problem: barbarian has BO on his own, can he instead of CtA use say Enchant from Demon Limb instead when prebuffing from stash(inventory)? He will take same time as any character who prebuffs with CtA from stash, so no harm done.
---> This leads to new questions: If barb is allowed to use Demon Limb prebuff from stash, can any character use it then even if he has CtA on switch and not in stash? Can assassin prebuff her venom with beta Bramble the same way too?
---> Which leads to more questions: If all this seems fine, should we change rule to allow ANY single item prebuff from either inventory or stash? So no only CtA, but any item you desire.
Problem: Does that mean someone can use say Mara's Kaleidoscope, go every round to the stash to buff his BO level by 2? Should we limit prebuff items allowed to the one which don't alter Bo level at all with exception of CtA? Or do we need to state such prebuff items must be used from the cube from inventory? Should we even limit allowed amount of items for prebuff if cube is used, or you can prebuff with anything that you put in the cube that is in your inventory? What about ES sorcs and their prebuff?
As you can see, there are many questions to be answered about this, so feel free to start. So, we need prebuff rules most are happy with, and which are not too complex to follow to keep things simple if possible.
These are the rules last two pvp weeks were played with:
Code:
General PvP rules:
1. Mana potions are allowed for all classes (except for the ES sorceress).
1. a) It is allowed to drop potions in front of blood moor entrance. Same applies to arrows.
2. No minions that cannot be summoned in town with the exception of Decoy.
3. Replenish life is capped at 50.
4. Slow is capped at 10%.
5. Poison damage from charms is not capped at all.
Skills:
6. Banned skill are: Slow Missiles, Holy Freeze, Meditation, Prayer, Cleansing, Iron Maiden, Decrepify, Bone Prison, Life Tap and Clay Golem. Those skills are banned in any form or shape, regardless of their source. (Doom, Exile, Lawbringer etc)
6. a) Items containing banned skills charges aren’t banned but using those charges is. (Marrowwalks, Sanctuary etc)
7. Cold Mastery is capped at one point only for Blizzard sorceress class.
8. All charges from items are allowed, with exception of banned skills. (Oak from Hoto is allowed, Wolves from Crescent moon are allowed)
8. a) Lower resists from wand charges is only allowed in team duels.
9. No recasting of Cyclone Armor. You can re-cast Bone Armor though.
Absorb:
10. Maximum resists are capped at 85 without any absorb.
11. 75 resists + 20% absorb is allowed, 80 resists + 12% sorb is allowed.
12. Two Ravenfrosts are allowed as long as you have 175 cold resists or less.
13. Banned items: 1.07 LoH, Rising Sun, Blackoak Shield, Hotspurs, Thundergod”s Vigor.
14. Resistance stack is not counted as absorb.
Prebuff:
15. Call to arms can be used from stash for all classes (no buffing with any additional items, including shields; just gear you use)
16. ES can be prebuffed with maximum two items
17. Prebuff is fine for low tier pvp characters (Cold armor sorcs, wolfbarbs, fuzzydodgers etc)If anyone has any complaints about certain rule, shoot it in here. I'll start without complaining, but commenting.
3. Replenish life is capped at 50.
My question is, should we remove the cap on replenish? Is there any point of having cap on it anyway? Cap was put just because cap was on replenish before, no other reason. It is quite hard to get to 50 anyway, and if someone wants to make character with more replenish, why not then? It's not like he can make 500 replenish character or something absurd like that. I'm not even sure is it possible to go considerably over 50 without harming your character too much. I ask this because removing this rule we can make rules simpler.
5. Poison damage from charms is not capped at all.
Another rule we could remove. It was stated poison damage is not capped at all just because before it was. Since now there is no cap, we can as well remove this rule. I played poison barb this pvp week, and he is lower tier character even if you don't stack poison resist. And if you do, you can throw it to trash can, almost. If someone has anything to say about this go ahead.
7. Cold Mastery is capped at one point only for Blizzard sorceress class.
There were certain complaints about this rule, so I call upon vote about this one. Vote for is rule fine with you or is it not (even if you already said in pvp thread not long ago).
15, 16., 17. All prebuff rules
So, this is main problem it seems. First, rule is not nicely written because it causes confusion on whether it is allowed to use spirit shield + CtA on switch as prebuff or only CtA. Idea is you are allowed to use all the gear you have on character to prebuff (so if you have spirit shield on switch which function is only to buff BO, then you can use it. Or lidless wall or whatever you use), and CtA is the only item you can prebuff with from either inventory or stash.
Problem: barbarian has BO on his own, can he instead of CtA use say Enchant from Demon Limb instead when prebuffing from stash(inventory)? He will take same time as any character who prebuffs with CtA from stash, so no harm done.
---> This leads to new questions: If barb is allowed to use Demon Limb prebuff from stash, can any character use it then even if he has CtA on switch and not in stash? Can assassin prebuff her venom with beta Bramble the same way too?
---> Which leads to more questions: If all this seems fine, should we change rule to allow ANY single item prebuff from either inventory or stash? So no only CtA, but any item you desire.
Problem: Does that mean someone can use say Mara's Kaleidoscope, go every round to the stash to buff his BO level by 2? Should we limit prebuff items allowed to the one which don't alter Bo level at all with exception of CtA? Or do we need to state such prebuff items must be used from the cube from inventory? Should we even limit allowed amount of items for prebuff if cube is used, or you can prebuff with anything that you put in the cube that is in your inventory? What about ES sorcs and their prebuff?
As you can see, there are many questions to be answered about this, so feel free to start. So, we need prebuff rules most are happy with, and which are not too complex to follow to keep things simple if possible.
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Delsy
Active member
Let's vote on the rules. It should make it all clearer.
3. I consider massing replenish BM. I vote stay.
5. Doesn't really matter, but I sense some informative value in it. I vote stay.
7. I vote 1 pt.
15. 16. 17. Maybe we could create some cagegories to vote for? My vote is: prebuff allowed only with items from the cube in the inventory.
3. I consider massing replenish BM. I vote stay.
5. Doesn't really matter, but I sense some informative value in it. I vote stay.
7. I vote 1 pt.
15. 16. 17. Maybe we could create some cagegories to vote for? My vote is: prebuff allowed only with items from the cube in the inventory.
3. Since most characters have lots of life it doesn't make much of a difference, but normally >30 is considered BM. So with beta CtA's, 1.07 stuff etc. 50 is OK. I vote stay.
5. I don't care for it, whatever you guys vote.
7. Way too biased to vote, skip this.
15. 16. 17. As long as it's not time consuming (stash, +skills for CtA etc) it's fine. Everything from inventory/cube is fine by me.
5. I don't care for it, whatever you guys vote.
7. Way too biased to vote, skip this.
15. 16. 17. As long as it's not time consuming (stash, +skills for CtA etc) it's fine. Everything from inventory/cube is fine by me.
Regarding PvP rules, my suggestion is that we allow recast of both cyclone armor and bone armor, not only bone armor. Why? Because now most new players have wind druids and I really think it would be a good idea to allow cyclone armor recast. I think wind druids are rarely played cause they are almost fresh meat for random trappers out there, and newer or less experienced players with wind druids can find that matchup incredibly difficult to play.
Allowing cyclone armor recast would make wind druids much more playable for those players, they won't get killed in single namelock anymore and both they and trapper players could have more fun overall. Also wind druids could play more offensively against trappers instead of just staying away cause they don't wanna risk to get killed fast. Yes, Froz and me tested that recast can be OP if used correctly, but my suggestion is we try this and see how it goes. I do think it will help wind druid players a lot and make their playing much more satisfying. Realistically only character that will totally get screwed by this is FO sorc who has no chance of even damaging, let alone winning that matchup. Good thing is those sorcs are basically non existent. Blizzard sorc will have harder time killing wind druid cause he could survive more blizzards. But overall I think gains are better than loses. Wind druids are barely used, basically Delsy is the only one playing one.
Regarding prebuff, I would suggest we allow any prebuffing to be done from the cube in inventory with as many items that fit in if someone wants to do that, and leave rest of prebuff rules the same as they were till now.
Allowing cyclone armor recast would make wind druids much more playable for those players, they won't get killed in single namelock anymore and both they and trapper players could have more fun overall. Also wind druids could play more offensively against trappers instead of just staying away cause they don't wanna risk to get killed fast. Yes, Froz and me tested that recast can be OP if used correctly, but my suggestion is we try this and see how it goes. I do think it will help wind druid players a lot and make their playing much more satisfying. Realistically only character that will totally get screwed by this is FO sorc who has no chance of even damaging, let alone winning that matchup. Good thing is those sorcs are basically non existent. Blizzard sorc will have harder time killing wind druid cause he could survive more blizzards. But overall I think gains are better than loses. Wind druids are barely used, basically Delsy is the only one playing one.
Regarding prebuff, I would suggest we allow any prebuffing to be done from the cube in inventory with as many items that fit in if someone wants to do that, and leave rest of prebuff rules the same as they were till now.
