The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

a brick

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The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

Hi, I'm brick,

[BLUE=Bashiok"-Blessed Hammer - No longer ignores resistances of undead and demons."]-Blessed Hammer - No longer ignores resistances of undead and demons.[/BLUE]

I hope I'm not interpreting this wrong, but I think that means that Hammers can be resisted now. If I remember correctly, the Horadrim Ancients from Hell Baal are Immune to Magic but Hammers could kill them because in 1.12 the hammers had the ability to ignored the resistances of Undead or Deamons.

As nearly everyone knows, for the past few years Hammerdins have for the most part dominated a majority of the game. In 1.12, it was Hammerdins who did the thousands of botted baal runs, who did uber-leveling, who were the best at pvm, whose attacks could not be resisted.

Seeing the literally thousands of Hammerdins who crowd the realms, I feel this era during the life of Diablo II should be called the "Age of Hammerdin". I hate to admit it, but the Hammerdin is the best overall build in Diablo II. I don't like making typical builds but even I built a Hammerdin because I realized just how great the build really is.

With the new patch coming out pretty soon, there are quite a few changes. There is a new quest for players to do and respec is now available to name the major aspects of the patch. However, I've noticed a lot of players have failed to see some very major changes. The most significant change in my opinion is that the Blessed Hammer skill can now be resisted. I got the info here: http://www.purediablo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=751132
which came from Battle.net forums

What you have to realize is that the Hammerdin has become a part of the culture of Diablo. It is no longer just a build, it is a defining characteristic of Diablo, one could argue.

...With the coming of 1.13, the Hammer will no longer be invincible. Do you see?

I'm not saying the Hammerdin will completely disappear because at this point, it isn't possible after having it engraved in our souls. The Hammerdin will no longer be the class of choice. This is a big deal; everyone is so used to building a Hammerdin that this patch will actually change the culture of Diablo II!

In addition, Uber leveling how it is done now is virtually impossible. Another Part of the current Diablo culture for the most part is to find loopholes. Hammerdins exploit those loopholes better than any. Very few people, except for SP players obviously, actually walk through the game as a whole, including myself. Most people get "g-rushed" or "bug rushed" or whatever you want to call it so that instead of leveling the old fashioned way, many people do some uber leveling from 1-90 after being from normal act 1 to hell act 5. 1.12 Diablo primarily consisted of people trying to exploit loopholes. On top of that, the Hammerdin was the only viable build even able to do uber-leveling during 1.12.

Hammerdins will still have a reliable attack that cannot be easily resisted that does a very high amount of damage. They will still be able to easily beat Hell mode. They will still be a powerful build. But they are no longer untouchable. A Hammerdin cannot easily do a baal run anymore because the Horadrim ancient pack is Magic Immune, so hammers will have no affect on them. Some monsters will be able to resist the hammers so it wont be as effective. Melee, meaning physical damage, will become the ideal choice to do chaos runs. You might be able to overlook this, but Baal runs will much longer if a Hammerdin is doing it unless there is help. Baal runs are the life blood of Diablo II, for without out, no one would spend the time actually leveling. If you understand Diablo, you'll understand the scope of the situation.

I dare to call it...The Death of the Age of the Hammerdin.. Dun Dun Dunnnn...

So what happens next? How does the Diablo community react? When all the 1337 GFG mofos that make up the majority of types of people who play Diablo come to realize that the Hammerdin has weakened, what will we do? In order for Diablo to survive, I believe, another build is going to have to rise up to take the Hammerdin's place. An average Diablo player will never actually do everything themselves or settle for something slower than they're used to. If things are slower, it becomes less interesting. If things are less interesting, less people will play the game and the community will shrink. I don't want that to happen because I love Diablo and I want it to stay around.

It wont be good of people stop playing, to say it another way.

Who is going to come up with how to handle this crisis? Who or What is going to succeed the Hammerdin on the king's throne? Or, will the culture of Diablo change? I'm going to be thinking about these questions. I'm going to try to solve this temporary (I hope) problem. I hope reading this has made people realize something potentially dangerous to Diablo.

The Hammerdin proves he is not God but Mortal

Thanks for Reading,

Brick :wave:
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

Interesting post. There arent many monsters in Hell with magic resistance, and only 6 have magic immunities. A lot of people have been calling this change a nerf, but when you consider the little resistant monsters in Hell, the fact you can skip the immune ones (except in one case I will talk about soon), and the fact you can 1 pt Smite them with a Grief + HoZ on switch too, its no nerf at all. Even after the resistances now being taken into account, the Blessed Hammer has enough killing power, where if it killed in one or two hammers before, it will either still take one or two hammers now or kill on the second or third one at most. I believe the +150% damage to Undead hasnt been changed also.

So as you correctly pointed out, I would call it the death of the 'age' of the hammerdin, not the death of the hammerdin as a whole, the 'age' being the time when they would rule Baal runs specifically, as the Horadrim ancients cannot be killed using Hammers now and nothing can break their immunity (God forbid they add some way to do this on final release). I posted this before and got the 1pt Smite response, as a way to kill wave 2 .... but now I've been thinking, one must remember the Horadrim ancients that spawn in the Throne room itself before wave 2 sometimes. It can be hard to 1pt Smite all of these while switching to Hammer versus other enemies, especially when usually the other ones that spawn with the mummies are Undead revivables and dangerous ones, like the gloams and undead stygians. And in 8player Baal runs, a lot of people join for experience and are not yet equipped with gear viable for survivability and killing power, its not uncommon for everyone else besides the Hammerdin to just stand by and aid using only curses or auras. As such, this can be a potential handicap for Baal running with a Hammerdin. All I can think of is telebombing a mummy pack with a really good decrepify + holy freeze merc to keep them in place, seeing as now IM has been removed one shouldnt worry about OKs spawning with the other mobs, but they (mercs) are not unknown to die to very dangerous attacks like doll explosions and gloam lightning (hasnt really been changed on champions imo) and the succubi bloodstars either. Thus one cannot rely on mercs either, and 1pt smite is a slow attack with no AOE, not very viable against groups of mummies while you are surrounded by other way more dangerous enemies and need to kill real fast.

So Hammerdins now cannot Baal run, and they cannot Uber exp rush. So thats a lot of Hammerdin users swiped out overnight. But people will still use this build for other reasons, like keyrunning and magic finding (maybe not Ancient Tunnels because of the plague bearers, merc kills them but he is a slow killer and their are too much, unless you just run the boss packs unlike me, I run everything :) ), or heck even general fun PvMing. As you said yourself, this build is too well instilled in people's hearts now.

I dont know what effect the eradication of duping might have on Hammerdins however, will people still play them without Enigma being so common? (And this assuming the one duping bug they fixed was the major one used with high success and is not easily replaced, or new methods arising have low success rates).

As to who will replace them, probably a Whirlwind barbarian. I had an idea for a WW chaos runner build for 1.13, it will all depend on how well their damage scales up in 8p games and what kind of physical resistances they are dealing with (physical immunes are the least common after magic immunes and they are so rare in Chaos and Baal runs that 1 pt Berserk is a good idea here, ideally with a shield on switch because Zerk + no shield = instant death), but with no Iron Maiden and WW being a fantastically fast and powerful AOE, and controversially non-melee/missile-like attack, they really got potential. Thats in theory, in practice ... well, one will have to try and see :)
 
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Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

thnx for linking my post there :grin:

i agree that hammers shall no longer be great baal bots, but have you considered CS runs? :p

welcome, to 1.13, where botted hammerdins no longer dominate Baal runs, but dominating Chaos Sanctuary runs.

and Lighting sorc with infi might take over the baal runs, with decent gear ofc.
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

The hammerdin age should never have existed the first place, lol. But then again, they pretty much will still rule.

I once played one in single player, untwinked, and it was a breeze.

By the way, if that old page of sirian's is still on, you can read out what I once managed to do with level 1 blessed hammer.....
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

Thanks for reading everyone.

I just want to stress that the Hammerdin will still probably be the most common character because magic immunes are so rare as ancalagon pointed out. However, it just wont rule Diablo like it has in the past.

With the removing of IM, blizzard I think is trying to make other builds more viable for doing chaos and baal runs. Physical damage characters could very well become the ideal choice for a character that runs chaos and baal. It will be interested to see what people come up with because Diablo fans tend to be very clever when faced with an issue like this. If there is a way to make life easy again, the Diablo community will find it.

Whether it's a ww-barb like ancalagon said, or a CE/nova necro like I'm thinking right now(i know, a bit wacky but I like wacky), something is going to replace the hammerdin for chaos and baal because it is no longer the best option. Physical damage characters, I hope, in 1.13 will start doing runs because physical damage could have the ability to do more damage in chaos and Hammerdins can't do baal runs anymore.

Here are some builds I've been thinking of:
-Strafe zon? A lot of cb and leach and it's possible this might be viable. Not sure on the ability to mf tho.
-Zealer? With cb, leach, lifetap, and itd, the zealer would be a much better option than a smiter because of the 5 attacks (more area) and more damage.
-WW barb? already said but the reasons are for the AOE damage and possibility of doing a lot of damage.
-lit sorc? only caster I can think of that is really viable. ability to break immunes and deal high amounts of damage with static, chain lightning and lightning itself for bosses

I'll think some more about it.

-brick
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

the whole uber leveling in D2 is what makes D2's economy retarded (and dupes). a lot of items are taken for granted because everyone and their friends have almost the same usual gears (godly runewords).

then again, most people won't play if they can't go from level 1 to 90s in a few days (I bet some can do it in a few hours...)
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

a brick, the only thing I don't get is why you call the nerfed hdin a 'crisis'. Hdins are more like a rotting limb that needs to be amputated. There are loads of other builds (sorc, I'm looking at you) that will annihilate the throne room.

In Chaos Sanctuary, oblivion knights have only 25 magic resist while every other creature in there has zero magic resist, including diablo.

My take: everyone is going to use a sorc for her natural teleport and huge damage. This will be the Age of the Sorceress. I welcome anything just for the sake of change, even if it means these little girls in green will totally take over bnet.

Edit: and anyone who wants to be high on the ladder can forget about chaos runs (unless you kill off the five minute time requirement by slaughtering Diablo after you've killed Baal.) Chaos Sanc is going to be so easy that anyone and their merc can do it with one hand. Plus, it simply does not yield as much exp as a Baal run.
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

Edit: and anyone who wants to be high on the ladder can forget about chaos runs (unless you kill off the five minute time requirement by slaughtering Diablo after you've killed Baal.) Chaos Sanc is going to be so easy that anyone and their merc can do it with one hand. Plus, it simply does not yield as much exp as a Baal run.

http://s412.photobucket.com/albums/pp210/DrFluff/?action=view&current=level99diablorun.flv

not fast enough?

beside, dia gives MORE exp then all waves together at high level ( i am talking 95+ )


 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

Whether it's a ww-barb like ancalagon said, or a CE/nova necro like I'm thinking right now(i know, a bit wacky but I like wacky), something is going to replace the hammerdin for chaos and baal because it is no longer the best option. Physical damage characters, I hope, in 1.13 will start doing runs because physical damage could have the ability to do more damage in chaos and Hammerdins can't do baal runs anymore.

CE/nova necro cannot do Baal.

Anyone who's made one will not attempt to run Baal unless it's absolutely necessary.

Light sorc is the most viable replacement, but none can replace the retarded, overpowered build that is hammerdin.



 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

-Blessed Hammer - No longer ignores resistances of undead and demons


This is useless unless they put more Immune to Magic monsters, the only ones are the Wailing Beast in Act 3 temple maps and the mummies in Hell mode.
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

Maybe crisis wasn't the best word, but I do believe that with this patch will come a huge change in Diablo culture. The reason why I called it a crisis to begin with was because everyone is so used to leveling from 1-90 in a few hours that it is possible a lot of people will quit, not saying they'll be missed but still.

You cannot have a game if there are barely any people playing. It's just a fact. The Hammerdin might not be useless, it's far from useless as raveharu points out, but what it has been most used for, baal runs, it can no longer do. I also believe the hammerdin is like a cancerous tumor for Diablo at how overpowered it is, but the average Diablo player loves it and that's precisely the problem. If players can't be practicaly invincible, they might quit. You might not miss them, and it might improve the culture of the game, but a loss of players would not be a positive thing.

Who's to say Lightning sorc's running Sanctuary is any better? People already have them for mf runs if they don't use their hammerdin for it. I would guess that the light sorc is the 2nd most popular character and there would be even more if they were the class to replace the hammerdin in baal runs. The hammerdin might not be gone, but because they can't do baal runs, there will be A LOT less of them I predict, once people actually realize they can't kill the mummies...

-brick
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

You want a crisis?

Wait to see what happens if they remove teleport from enigma.

Nothing but wall-to-wall sorceress after that.
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

http://s412.photobucket.com/albums/pp210/DrFluff/?action=view&current=level99diablorun.flv

not fast enough?

beside, dia gives MORE exp then all waves together at high level ( i am talking 95+ )

Well sorry, but isnt that single player edited with perfect gear? Try a more realistic setup. We will see how easy it is to level up to even 80 and beyond and get Enigmas and perfect gear once the new patch is released. But yeah, I agree Hammerdins dont have a problem doing Chaos, its Baal which can pose a problem if the room is full of Horadrim Ancients, and a real problem if Stygians and Souls / OKs are there too.


 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

You want a crisis?

Wait to see what happens if they remove teleport from enigma.

Nothing but wall-to-wall sorceress after that.

I will be happy to see Enigma gone for good personally, or teleport removed from it at least. I also dont like the insane strength boost on Enigma (yes, call me crazy as much as you want).

I am using a CL / Orb sorc which is nearly all rare items (except for a Viper and Spirit), and the game is real challenging like that. I can do nearly anything, I collected a few keys from keyruns and some essences, so it's all good so far. I can even do Chaos Sanctuary (preferably with a merc if Seis spawns Cold and Light immune), and sometimes I get a lucky Throne room with good conditions. Killing speed is horrible, but the challenge is there. Not a hardcore build as I died quite a few times. But it's fun and getting those keys and essences through hard work and dedication feels satisfying, no matter how slow and frustrating the process might be. Leave teleport to the sorcs I say.


 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

I would hardly call the changes made to be game changing enough that we'd notice anything. The nerf to the hammerdin is sight, and bots will still be able to run baal with 1-pt smite or a decent merc. Hammerdins still have high damage output with strong defenses, and still among the few choices to handle ball solo consistantly and efficienctly.

The removal of IM probably won't do much because melee characters have never been able to deal with mass crowds quickly. True, you can get some near-invulnerable builds, but its still faster to use ranged or spellcasters to take them out faster.
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

I don't even understand why so many people hate hammerdins. It takes some skill to play one, and at least decent gears + enigma to make it functional (okay, albeit I played in an era when duping wasn't AS wide spread 4 hr price tag is still considered expensive)

We survived the death of burizon, so there's no reason we don't survive this one.

To be quite frank, at the dawn of hammerdin in 1.10 (when enigma first came online), when there are still major players around, I ran with some really well-built chars who can clear just as, if not faster than hammerdins in specialty areas (chaos, throne... etc)

I think it's just that while hammerdin is workable with okay gear + enigma, other elite uber chars require massively expensive and good gear to be effective.

I mean, bottonline... what is the point of playing this game? Is it to build a uber char that can clear everywhere? Then the solution is not to nerf hammer... but to make all other skills stronger

Is it so that you must have team build to quest? (Honestly, I think that's retarded, this isn't WOW, and there are only like 10 fun areas and 30 quests available anyways) then nerfing hammerdin isn't the answer either... wait... retraction... it is... but... yea...

It is easy to point finger at hammerdins, but I think people just need to find the bottomline reason why they play the game and figure out a viable solution.

I mean, every patch creates new nerfs and new uber cookie cutters... the cycle just repeat and repeat... I really find it pointless.

For me, the whole point of playing is try out new designs (okay, when I still played) so it didn't deter me from trying new chars just because I had a hammerdin. I still went out to get a light sorc, 7 fps zon, goldmancer, howl barb... so I ask... is hammerdin really the problem? Or is the problem really all in the head?
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

It wouldn't be such a big deal if teleport wasn't so overpowered.

I mean, its a 1-point wonder. One point, super fast travel.

It would be a lot more fair if you had to put points into be able to teleport farther. It would still be useful for escaping from enemies, but not as broken. A timer might not be too bad of an idea either.
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

I haven't really been talking about problems with d2 and how hammers aren't really a problem... Idk how it got here.
@ancalagon: Enigma won't change because it's too much a part of the game. d2 won't remove a large aspect of the game, they really just add stuff.
@razen: Ppl love hammerdins... it's just this forum. Log onto d2 and you'll see that hammerdins are everywhere.
@CombatShrine: They won't change teleport, its too much a part of the game. THAT would make ppl quit.

Why has this turned into a "what i think would be better" thread?

I'm sorry for all you guys out there who would like to see engima removed or whatever, but it's not going to happen. Good luck convincing the thousands of players whose goal is to make a lvl 90 character in 3 hours and start pvping, ubering, mfing, etc right away.

The point is that the Hammerdin has been weakened by Blizzard enough to not cause an uproar in the diablo fanbase (we are a minority here if you didn't know). At the same time, they kind of tried to increase the power of the other classes to make the game more balanced. What I am certain of, though, is that Hammerdins will no longer be able to run diablo and baal games as fast. This is a big deal because a lot of people expect to have a level 90 char within 3 hours... when leveling takes longer, people are less interested and they stop playing.

That's why I called it the death of the "Age of the Hammerdin". I made this thread to shed some light on the issue and present ideas some might not have though of initially. I also hoped people would present their ideas on how 1.13 will change Diablo, not how Diablo should be changed...

So here's some questions: How do you think the Diablo community will react to 1.13 and how do you think the game will change? If you agree with my ideas, what are some ideas you have to handle the situation (not crisis, I guess)?

-brick
 
Re: The Death of the 'Age of Hammerdin'

Wall to wall sorc problem: put a casting delay on tele. Of course, I'm sure thousands would leave the game, but I'm of the mindset that this is a good thing. Fewer strangers on a less exploitable bnet!

a brick, I believe the game just got tremendously easier with patch 1.13. So according to the notion that way-too-easy is oh-so-good for players, more people will play. Imo, I doubt anyone will quit just because of the one little nerf to hdins. Maybe they will just move on to the next best thing?
 
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