The D2 economy is in a major depression

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mysticc

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The D2 economy is in a major depression

I have a few concerns about the d2 economy, and why it has to be improved in d3.

The need for perfection gone to extreme levels

I'm not sure I understand prices on items with a defense bonus range, and I understand how it got this way even less. For some reason, a defense 141 shako is 10 or 20fg, but a 139 is worth almost nothing. The same goes for belts like arachnid's. I'm not sure I understand because the defense is so low that it becomes irrelevant in practice anyway... and when taken into context with all the mods - the REAL reason you'd want to use the helm anyway - the defense stat probably has .01% effect on the overall effectiveness of the item. It's irrelevant in pvm... in dueling... in anything. The only person that knows it is perfect is the player themselves (and whoever that player happens to show it off to in a trade window).

I guess it gets this way because there is an excess of shako and arachnid meshes floating around, but it's weird why the market would say, "The defense stat is going to determine the value of Shako from now on!". For a Herald of Zakarum... I can understand... because a good one compared to a piss poor one will make 1000 defense difference after you apply holy shield to it. A shako though will hardly make anywhere near that level of impact, especially when just considering the average ones to the perfect one. The arachnid mesh is even more a joke. Some people won't even use non-perfect ones.

Perhaps this kind of mentality could be rectified with WoW's method of binding items to the player... that way the market never gets over-flooded with the same items. Either that, or they need to make the ladder resets more frequent.

Dupes

Duping and Botting has also expedited the problems within the game. It is frankly impossible for legit players to compete with dupes and botting. Playing legit can still get you lots of runewords, most of the best uniques, etc. to enjoy the game... but the bots and dupes take it to a whole new level.

Dupes actually hurt the poorest on the server the most. The rich get to sell off the dupes before the economy is affected, so they essentially get top price initially. This happens until the economy realizes, "Wait a minute... there's a lot more of these *these* than before... I guess the demand isn't so high for them anymore or are not as rare as we thought."

As a consequence, any poor player coming across a legit item that has been duped en-mass suffers because it is harder for them to gain wealth and real purchasing power. Of course, once the economy has been stabilized after dupes, these poorer players can now get runes much more easily, but they are still leaps and bounds poorer to the people who started the duping in the first place by comparison. These people managed to get harder currency for the dupes, which survives the inflation, and thus gives them more purchasing power as time goes on.

Duping, if possible, would always exist no matter how rare the items were... but I do think the extreme rarity of the high runes encourages people to figure out ways to dupe items. Maybe that was Blizzard's intention - to make them so rare that only a few people on the server would have BoTD. But if you ask me, it encouraged it even more. The same goes for Rare item dupes in classic, or the ones that managed to do well in the expansion on non-ladder.

It goes without saying that D3 has to make it impossible to dupe items, and if such duping exists, they need to take a firm stance against it.

Bots

Bots affect the game in different ways, by increasing the supply of items that are supposed to be hard to find. Of course in D2, this will happen naturally as the ladder servers get older, but botting accelerates the process exponentially. The only cure without any additional programming is a ladder reset, which would piss a lot of people off.

Bots are more or less perfect. They don't miss that Stone of Jordan on the ground, whereas the player might. They don't miss that special boss pact holding the 2-socket perfect crown of ages. Bots also pick up every magic and rare and scrutinize everything, where the real person probably won't due to time-constraints. We also don't have to mention that the human player will traverse the map many times slower as well.

The fact that mephisto is so easy beaten makes him so easily botted... and thus anything he drops is now worthless in the economy. There is virtually no point to running him at all. You can find 1 magic item from gambling that someone wants and get 30-50 amazing uniques all at once. Why even bother?

As botting has become so easy that just about anyone can do it... it encourages the poor to try and "catch up" to the rich. Of course, this only compounds the problem further. Now, just about anything you find is worth nothing within the game. The only real items of value of gambled rares and blues, crafted items, charms, etc. The fact that a tyreal's might was selling for 30fg the other day is proof that there is a very real problem. Is there really an over inflation of tyreal's might now? That's pretty sad.

Unique Item Quality

Part of the problem is the items themselves. Crown of Ages is a fantastic example. A poor generation of the item is not worth using by any character, yet it's hard enough to find that it is unlikely to find several legitly unless you've been playing for a really long time.

Armors like Leviathan, while looking cool, are worthless because of excessive strength requirements. When compared to runewords like Engima, there is virtually no point to using something like this. If Enigma was actually extremely rare, then we'd see more uniques in play... but with all the dupes... it makes MFing many, many uniques pointless.

MFing

Part of the problem is the real lack of variety when MFing. Imagine what the game would be like if you stood to get difference items just by running through all the levels as opposed to running bosses? Of course, bosses would give good drops... but just imagine that you had strategy in every location in the game. This would encourage people actually PLAYING THE GAME. Perhaps even getting mfing bonuses by doing various activities/quests rather than being 100% item based.

You lose purchasing power by playing

If you actually get items and play the game, your purchasing power in fact goes down. Not by a little - but rather, by a whole lot. Therefore, if you really care about your wealth in the game, you should always liquidate to FG whenever you are not playing. This hurts anyone who has items and goods in the game and prefers to keep these on their accounts.

I did not play for several months. I had a lightning die facet that was 5/5. It was worth 45fg. Now, people offer 10fg. It was just sitting in a stash for just a few months. I lost 35fg by simply keeping it on my character - 350% the value.

Inflation happens in the real world - the Fed makes sure to that - but they at least only do it by fractions of that number. This is how depressions start, and the D2 economy is in fact in a great depression. The moment someone can not play the game for just a few months and probably lose 2-4 times their wealth is dangerous for everyone that plays. I probably had 2500fg worth of stuff on my accounts. Now, it is perhaps worth 700fg.

Without a way to easily liquidate our wealth then, a lot of players simply won't. I personally can't be bothered trying to sell "my junk". It just takes too long. Why bother when I could bot or dupe my way faster than trying to trade it all?

That's why the economy is suffering, and why it needs to be discussed. I hope D3 does a very good fixing these problems.
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

So... what do we do about the starving kids in Africa? So far I hear about rich kids playing Diablo and getting screwed over by 350% value of their pixels...
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

So... what do we do about the starving kids in Africa? So far I hear about rich kids playing Diablo and getting screwed over by 350% value of their pixels...

Why make such an useless comparison?

Everything he said is pretty much on the spot but the problem is players cannot fix the problem, only Blizzard can.


 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

Reminds me of the last time I was selling a trap gc, some assa came in, looked at it and commented: "bad skin" proceeding to leave the game. -.-
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

you dont lose 350% of value when you drop from 35 to 10, you lose 71% of value.

i would argue that the current economy is in a state of extreme prosperity. poor people typically have several HRs and a few elete runewords due to overpopulation of runes and runewords. it allows even the worst players to solo baal at will within a month of starting off.

the biggest problem with the economy is the fact that things like fg exist. it allows players to move their assets out of the game, thereby bypassing inflation. it's like earning money in a poor country that experiences large ammounts of inflation, and instead of building on your assets in that economy's currency, you decide to move all of your assets to a relativly stable currency with the intention of buying items back when the inflation hits.

inflation only hurts an economy when something is used solely as currency. in d2, when an item becomes more prominent, they become usful to more people. Hr's are not just a currency in diablo. if they were used for nothing except buying and selling things than inflation would kill their use, and anybody that holds them would be doing something completely useless. Hr's, however, are used to create the best items in the game. the fact that there are more of them does nothing but help all players who need the items that they are used to make.

i understand what you are saying, i guess, and i agree that these things you pointed out could be considered problems. your analysis of these things as a depression though, i feel is completely wrong.

you have to remember that diablo is based on a barter system, so the fact that people barter for higher quality items on a more regualr basis means that these items are more common place and that the common man is more wealthy. since there is a limited ammount of fg and other currencys like it out there, items will drop in value to those currencies, but for just the straight d2 player that uses no outside currencies, he is rich, and the more items that are out there, the richer he will get.
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

Well you're in luck. FG isn't worth anything on these forums, so all of your items are identically valued, 'grats!
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

Why make such an useless comparison?

Everything he said is pretty much on the spot but the problem is players cannot fix the problem, only Blizzard can.

well then explain to me why make such a useless post? If he can't do anything, is there really a reason to complain? Yes we all know, it sucks, so why don't players devote their time to write up walls of texts complaining about it and highlighting the power points for the XXX time now.


 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

This thread should just be deleted. I quit reading the OP at the first reference to FG.
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

idk if anyone noticed but he complained about how p items were worth 3-5x non p items... lol
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

Reminds me of the last time I was selling a trap gc, some assa came in, looked at it and commented: "bad skin" proceeding to leave the game. -.-

Exactly. I almost managed to sell the light die facet for 20fg, but it was red and not pink, so he decided against it :/


 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

idk if anyone noticed but he complained about how p items were worth 3-5x non p items... lol

This is not "lol".

The problem is the inflation. It makes the perfect ones the only valuable ones... while the rest of them go down in value.

This means that you need to find 20 or 30 shakos to *finally* get one worth 10-15fg (2-3 hrs). This makes it much harder for a new player to get wealth, because they either need to spend exponential effort to get wealth, settle for being poor, or join the dupers/botters themselves.

Contrast this with a time where any reasonable shako fetched 5fg. Over time, you'd be a lot weathier selling average ones for 5fg than trying to get that 141 def one.

Back in the day, it was possible to "build up" wealth. You could sell good small items to buy bigger items. Not the case anymore. What consistents a "good" item is about 30 times more rare and takes 30 times more effort than it did before.

And in the case of shako, I already brought up that a perfect one doesn't really offer much benefit to a non perfect one. This isn't Eschuta's temper we are talking about - where the mods matter. This is a shako, which has static mods.

This means that as long as you hold your items in your accounts, you will lose money. It is like the dupers and bots stealing money from under your nose, and you can't do a thing to stop it. It means that you have to work exponentially harder to get the same wealth you ALREADY HAD.


 
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Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

Well you're in luck. FG isn't worth anything on these forums, so all of your items are identically valued, 'grats!

It's not a question of forum gold. High runes continue to fall in value as well, day after day.

It has gotten so bad that pgems can now buy high runes. Think about this. Really think about it.

A new player can make a bowazon, gamble some decent rings, ammy and bow... head into nightmare chaos santuary and run it over and over for pgems. Once they got 40-80 pgems, they can essentially get engima, shako, and any "non perfect" unique they can dream up... except for a few.

Pgems remarkably retain their purchasing power and have been stable, because they are consumed a lot and nobody would consider duping them. It's everything else that is changing.

This has nothing to do with forum gold. It has everything to do with the massive inflation. Forum gold merely reflects the value of items in the game, which are the crux of the problem.

--------

Let's take this from another point of view. Let's say you have a +2 assasin +3 traps +1 shadow warrior claw. Many, many years ago, you could have traded this for... I dunno... a Jah? A Zod maybe? Who knows. Now, you can get 60 zods for the same claw.

You know what this means? It means the dupers make 60 zods, and begin to trade zods for harder currency - things that are actually rare and valuable. The person left with the zod is all the poorer... while the dupers have managed to net 60 times the purchasing power.

This has nothing to do with forum and everything to do with the state of the economy within the game.


 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

You raise some excellent points. Thanks for contributing to the discussion ;)

you dont lose 350% of value when you drop from 35 to 10, you lose 71% of value.

It depends on how you look at it ;) If I had sold it at 45fg many months ago, I could acquire 3 perfect 5/5 lightning die facets and have 5fg leftover, to buy something else. In my opinion, I have lost purchasing power by keeping this item in my inventory (as well as any of my items that I own).

i would argue that the current economy is in a state of extreme prosperity. poor people typically have several HRs and a few elete runewords due to overpopulation of runes and runewords. it allows even the worst players to solo baal at will within a month of starting off.

This is a double-edged sword. It means that you can amass non-perfect uniques for very little wealth, which is good. But if you want to buy really nice items, you won't be able to. You want a 3-socket helm with life, dex or faster run walk? Well, sorry... you can't afford it. If things hadn't been inflated so poorly, it would be possible to afford such a helm with some effort.

I own such helms, so I am not complaining. I am saying though that the effort to trade for this helm is many, many times worse than it used to be. This is a sign of an unhealthy economy. The only reason it is masked is that Blizzard does not increase the difficulty of the game to compensate for the influx of godly items. If they did... then everyone would be poor and unable to compete. Thankfully, they don't do that.

the biggest problem with the economy is the fact that things like fg exist. it allows players to move their assets out of the game, thereby bypassing inflation. it's like earning money in a poor country that experiences large ammounts of inflation, and instead of building on your assets in that economy's currency, you decide to move all of your assets to a relativly stable currency with the intention of buying items back when the inflation hits.

inflation only hurts an economy when something is used solely as currency. in d2, when an item becomes more prominent, they become usful to more people. Hr's are not just a currency in diablo. if they were used for nothing except buying and selling things than inflation would kill their use, and anybody that holds them would be doing something completely useless. Hr's, however, are used to create the best items in the game. the fact that there are more of them does nothing but help all players who need the items that they are used to make.

i understand what you are saying, i guess, and i agree that these things you pointed out could be considered problems. your analysis of these things as a depression though, i feel is completely wrong.

you have to remember that diablo is based on a barter system, so the fact that people barter for higher quality items on a more regualr basis means that these items are more common place and that the common man is more wealthy. since there is a limited ammount of fg and other currencys like it out there, items will drop in value to those currencies, but for just the straight d2 player that uses no outside currencies, he is rich, and the more items that are out there, the richer he will get.

Every barter system evolves to something more complicated with time though. The problem is not the forum gold - this was bound to happen. It is not surprising that currencies like forum gold exist, in the same way humanity adopted gold and silver as a valuable form of currency (at least until modern fiat-based currency).

Also, high runes are in fact currency. It is no different than gold. The problem with high runes though is that they were duped. Real gold maintains value because we don't amass a lot more gold through mining making it rare, it's durable, it's useful in of itself, it's not inflatable as a currency, etc. Runes COULD have been like that, but the mass duping ruined that potential.

So it really doesn't surprise me that a currency outside of the game exists to compensate.


 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

I'm not sure I agree with many of your arguements. The D2 economy has grown in a natural way. Early on there were a few Shakos so they all had value. As time has gone on and general weath has grown on the realms, more Shakos are around so they lose their value. Only really good ones, ie perfect, have high value.

Compare that to RL. I have a job and I earn money. Guess what, so does just about everyone else. But I put that money under my mattress or stick it in a bank that gives virtually no interest. But as time goes on and everyone's earning money, the value of my cash is devalued by the inflation in the economy. Before I could buy a six-pack for $4, now it cost $8. My cash is your Shako. Unless I invest my cash in something that can outperform inflation, I will lose out over time.

So I do pretty well and I have a lot of cash. I buy a rare Ferrari. Over time the value of this car skyrockets because, well its really rare. You do just ok and buy a Mustang. Its a cool car but it doesn't go up in value. Mine is the perfect Shako and yours is the run of the mill Shako.

You see, it all works like it should.

However (one of) the big differences between D2 and RL is the ladder reset. When the ladder is reset, we all lose all our ladder wealth and start again at zero. This equalizer doesn't happen in real life. [Remember, your FG is no good on these forums so currency earned now cannot be used after the reset - for the most part.]

BTW - there is an edit button at the bottom of your post. The mods here don't react too kindly to posting multiple times in a row. I suggest you use it.

I'd also lead you to the the trading forums, but I think you've found your way there, but I'm curious how you've managed to trade here without achieving a trading rating??
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

Forum Gold has no meaning here. We never used it, we don't use it now, and we never will.

BTW mysticc, respondin to the posts of others is fine but please do not create multiple back to back postings like you did in this thread or it will be closed.

If you feel the need to respond to someone and no one else has yet posted since your last post, you may edit new responses into your most current posting.

I can see the occasional double post or consecutive post adding something to the thread, but when I see a few back to back postings like on the first page, and then four successive posts, I'm going to lean towards a thread lock.
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

The rich get richer, that's how it works.

Unlike many people on these forums and JSP, I get bored of MFing pretty fast. Due to that, I have never really acquired much wealth on the Ladder.

I was quite depressed on the Ladder. At my peak, I had earned 2 Ums, which was enough to get two decent items back then. All of my rich friends on the other hand, had sexy hammerdins who could be used to make them even more wealth by running various areas of the game very quickly and easily.

My only options for MFing was using my Fishymancer to run NM Meph or NM Countess at a very slow rate (slow walking, slow killing, having to find the maps all the time), which didn't really help me at all.

All of the doody of realm play and the interesting things going on at the SP forum caused me to consider playing SP. I decided to start some new characters (this time without the map hacks and character editors), and I found myself liking the nice player base and static maps.

I found much more enjoyment in single player than I did on the realms (mule programs, nice trading, even single player multiplayer), so perhaps you could try it too and see if you like it. :D
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

In a perfect world, there would be no economy. Believe me, I am a flaming leftist. (yes, call me a socialist, a commie... but in video game world, we are spot on)

I like to trade my xxx for your yyy without having to refer to a price chart. That's idealy how everything should work.

Of course, some items are more rare... so now... some people get the idea that "hum... rather than trade yyy for your xxx... maybe I can get xxx AND zzz"

Then people found this "es-oh-jay" thing to be something that everyone wants... omg, a genius came up with the idea "wait... let's settle it once and for all... your xxx is worth 2 es-oh-jay while my yyy is worth 5 es-oh-jay, and there would be no price dispute!"

and it wasn't long before someone started printing these "money"... and all that was before 1.06... gosh, people learn quickly eh? (I don't even know if there was ever a 1.00... but I know to get to 1.06 took about... less than a year?)

then god granted a new world... and money was no longer easily printed, so some people figured out how to counterfeit money. with the "fledling market" all of a sudden gained an influx of "money," true transaction economy was born

all of a sudden, it was instilled in everyone's brain that "money is good." and people no longer wanted items, they wanted to store money. the demand for money outweigh the demand for goods, and then what happened? print more money of course!

then 1.09 came, and for a moment, money printing was stopped... and the "economy" ceased to exist for a moment. Game was relatively easy with mid level items (such as the famed: "boo-ree-zar"), and the ultimate build can all be found through relatively easy "item searching"... for a short while after a long time, we came back to an item for item economy, a socialist economy. but the dark gloom of underground money transaction was always there, waiting for the right moment to blossom again.

then geniuses from all over the world told the "maker"

"we don't like what we have right now, this world is too easy to live in. make it harder!"

gods responded and granted the wish.

yet, rather than make a pyramid of useful vs rare items... some gods had the bright idea to make useful items also rare items... and a lot of them. so good were they, that all the 1.09 items were obsolete. these were the "etch-ars"

but gods did install something no one had heard of before... an agent smith type secret service that was killing mortals. money were disappearing by the masses, and also were used to buy this "dee-ka-long." currency was disappearing faster than they could be printed; it's as if people found that benjamin franklin is REALLY good to burn and replaced firewoods.

so the bright evil geniuses all over the world decide... since everyone wanted this "etch-ars," let's find a way to print that instead. boy, when there is a will, there is a way. not even the gods could see it coming, but these geniuses found a way to counterfeit "etch-ars!" through the process, many brave souls in hardcore were lost... BAM! "es-oh-jays" were gone, and in comes the "etch-ars."

aol died, cellphone became customary, and high speed internet is now standard.

so gods decided that they can't protect again these counterfeit "etch-ars," they will just create a new world for angry people... and to flood the world every once in a while so that counterfeits would only build up in a slow parabolic curve. boy were they wrong... They did not realize that 2 ums makes a mal. It takes about 2 hours for geniuses to find 2 ums... and 15 min later after that, you can create 20 zods. what gods did didn't solve the problem, they exacerbated by telling the mortals:

"we recognize your ability as godlike, we can't stop you... oh well... good luck replacing us."

but wait! story is not over... the rest is told by me through "dee-ai-ai-ai dot nat" associates...

these geniuses were first controlling these "etch-ars" through careful dstribution... why? because there are people from another dimension that possess even more power form of "money." (what blasphemy!) this form of money can buy lots of cool things... like "kum-pu-a-tars"... "ka-ars" or even the elusive "ha-owl-ce"

but in the last attempt to fight off these new gods, the creater gods decided they were finally doing something about it by annoucing 1.13... this panicked the new gods. new gods were vengeful. they decided they had enough of this "money" from another dimension, and decided to sell their elusive "money making ability" to anyone that have a "pa-ay-pa-owl" account.

(which mysteriously generate money from another dimension... it's all very weird... maybe decard cain knows more about it.)

the vengeful new gods casted the last plague that would decimate the earth by instilling "greed" in mortal's head.

crimes were on the rise, murders were frequent, theft was normal. prostitutes roam the street in the name of "ham-me-from-beehind-adin"

and people complained and complained...

to be continued:

------------------------

after writing that wall of text chronically highlighting every single events and evolution... I just came with this realization

all you @#$@ers deserve this... collective greed and retardation were the main cause behind all this mess.

we had something beautiful at the beginning... i can tolerate up to 1.06... 1.09 was beautiful from a resurrection standpoint, but that didn't last long. incessant complaints about "boo-ree-zhons" and difficulties caused 1.10

(that is not to say blizzard is not at fault as well, but man... both sides were so stupid that the dark ones found a way in. we got no one to blame but self... that's my conclusion. gg... gl... to be continue in 1.13 until d3... rinse and repeat)
 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

This is not "lol".

The problem is the inflation. It makes the perfect ones the only valuable ones... while the rest of them go down in value.

This means that you need to find 20 or 30 shakos to *finally* get one worth 10-15fg (2-3 hrs). This makes it much harder for a new player to get wealth, because they either need to spend exponential effort to get wealth, settle for being poor, or join the dupers/botters themselves.

Contrast this with a time where any reasonable shako fetched 5fg. Over time, you'd be a lot weathier selling average ones for 5fg than trying to get that 141 def one.

Back in the day, it was possible to "build up" wealth. You could sell good small items to buy bigger items. Not the case anymore. What consistents a "good" item is about 30 times more rare and takes 30 times more effort than it did before.

And in the case of shako, I already brought up that a perfect one doesn't really offer much benefit to a non perfect one. This isn't Eschuta's temper we are talking about - where the mods matter. This is a shako, which has static mods.

This means that as long as you hold your items in your accounts, you will lose money. It is like the dupers and bots stealing money from under your nose, and you can't do a thing to stop it. It means that you have to work exponentially harder to get the same wealth you ALREADY HAD.



dude how many shakos have you found? 5? 10? how many hrs have you found? 1? 2? how could you expect a low shako to be worth a hr?

the reason perfect items are worth more has nothing to do with the added benefits. it has to do with the fact that every person would prefer their item to be perfect, so the bidding on such an item drives their value up 3-5x. their values go up in the same way that a classic car in mint condition carries more value than the same car with a dent in the hood.

if a hr is worth 5 fg and shako dropps 10-20x more often than hrs. complaining that a shako is worth 1/5 the value of a hr is absurd because they are actually more commonplace and less useful in a clean economy than a hr. a perfect shako ONLY carries the value of a hr or two because hrs values have been lowered so severely and they are typically collectors items for the rich.


 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

I buy a rare Ferrari.
Jah+Pul for Ferrari if it has good sufffixes
Remember, your FG is no good on these forums...BTW - there is an edit button at the bottom of your post... I'm curious how you've managed to trade here without achieving a trading rating??
QFT, and also, I'm curious as to how many itamz he has offered on both forums at the same time... Could be none, but if it quacks...


 
Re: The D2 economy is in a major depression

Jah+Pul for Ferrari if it has good sufffixes
LL_CoolJay's Freezing Ferrari of the Blazing Highways

100% ctc lvl lvl 60 Blaze on Attack (=pressing the gas)
100% cto Pierce opposing cars when hit (still explode as if you'd hit them)
Freezes Target (you can lock target on your radar)
2 os (I suggest Nitrous and a portable machinegun)



I realize that it's personalized and only magical, but then again, Ferraris are even rarer than HRs. I gather that for 10 Zods you find one Ferrari so I think we should start negotiations at no less than 10 HRs. I may auction this baby later on the forums; right now I'm going for a test ride across Blood Moor & Cold Plains (see how many Fallens I can hit); perhaps I'll take Charsi along for the, erm, test drive too. :wink::wink:

I thought at first that this is a bugged item since it has one extra prefix; I consulted some code jock and he said "no dude, it's a Ferrari so the Piercing mod is free extra; it says in the code "if_ferrari = pierce_1" ". Larzuk was happy enough to hole this; took a good two hours though and he demanded a test ride too, the rat bastard. I hope you don't mind the small dents that the spiky beasts made to it on the Bloody Foothills... Or the spear that is sticking from the trunk. I'll have it removed when I pick up Charsi this afernoon. Wish me luck, fellas... :whistling: :cloud9:

Yes, my posts are spam. The economy is stupidly fudged up. Something must be done about it. Nothing will be done. That good enough for you? Good. Laugh along now. Merry Christmas (soon enough)! Dammit, I need my x-mas smilies; someone talk to Santa about this! Surely if he can exceed the speed of light he can give us a few new smilies... :scratchchin:


 
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