SPF Speedrunning - interest, rules discussion and other input

skiffcz

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Sep 23, 2007
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I'm sure most of you are aware of "official" speedrunning efforts of streamers and members of speedrun.com D2LOD category. Well, this is not a an attempt to duplicate that project. However, it has occured to me multiple times, that this is a segment obviously missing from these forums. I have never really figured out why, maybe the timing was never right, maybe the policy of refering to other Diablo places on the internet was too strict on the old forums, for whatever reason, this idea never took hold.

This is my attempt to scout the SPF landscape again, and maybe raise an interest in a lightweight, almost casual at first, speedrunning challenge of a game I love, on the forums one never truly leaves :)

The proposal is as follows - create an ongoing speedrunning league within the SPF ruleset. There is an excellent starting point for this project trailblazed by @Nano - Matriarch subtwo_vii - The Sub Two Hour Sorceress . I fully expect this community to beat this time.

Personally I would start with something simple, such as "any% SP(T)F allowed mods and practices RTA /px Hell":
  • real time attack (no fancy splitting software needed)
  • time starts on character creation screen with clicking "OK"
  • time ends with death of Hell Baal
  • any forum accepted mod allowed (singling, RWM ...)
  • any forum accepted practice allowed (preequipping in GoMule, multiplaying with yourself, hotmuling ....)
  • any version, forwarding chars mid run allowed, classic allowed
  • drunken HC runs allowed
  • red tinted equipment to go fasta
  • ...
You have the idea. JUST KILL BAAL QUICK. Let's just milk each and every option forum rules give us to go faster. I believe later a more refined category(ies) will naturally crystalize out of this, we might leave this "bad manners" category open and add something more restrained, perhaps more akin the speedrun.com rules with SPF specifics.

So ... would you be interested? My fingers are itching but there is really no fun in doing this alone :)
 
Although I like the idea in general this is exactly the opposite of how I like to play the game - full clears, slow pace, take my time to think about the next steps, untwinked... And with kids I frequently need to pause the game, soo... I will decline to participate, but I am interested in reading about other's efforts or watching speed runs of fellow forumites. :)
 
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I like the idea, but the forum accepted mods here I don't think lend itself well to how I'd want to play this and untwinked would be my route regardless.
 
Nice idea. Indeed speedrunning is not big around here, although there are SPFers (including myself) who frequently check out the current strategies that speedrunners use. But for me that's mostly just as a means to an end, in order to level up new chars quickly. Most recently I checked current Barb strats when I started my untwinked 99er HC Barb. In general, many interesting ideas came from the speedrunning scene and I often use mechanics/tricks I first saw used by speedrunners, such as swapcasting or Merc bugging. @Nano's Sorcs are another good example. Basically every new Sorc I level nowadays borrows heavily from the strats employed in that project, starting with a bunch of staves with charges etc.

But just rushing new chars through the game over and over isn't something I'm particularly interested in doing myself tbh. To me it's a bit like repeating first grade over and over. ;) When it comes to pushing limits, for me it's all about fully geared and more optimized end-game MF/RF builds, maximizing their efficiency... When I'm not doing that, I find it more interesting to work on 99ers or just Mats/Pats with some fun builds. :)

TLDR, most likely won't be joining myself, but I'd definitely follow other people's attempts. Doesn't seem easy to beat Nano's times tbh, but who knows!
 
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drunken HC runs allowed

This makes me feel like I've reached meme status on this forum.

I tend to agree with @Grisu in that I prefer the slow-paced playstyle of untwinked, single pass full clears. I do occasionally like to push a twinked character quickly through the game, but it's been quite a while since I've had the ability to do this. Maybe sometime in the future I might give this a go to help boost myself toward the 9920 levels I have left in the Murios project.
 
I like the idea, but the forum accepted mods here I don't think lend itself well to how I'd want to play this and untwinked would be my route regardless.
Yeah, in the end, untwinked would be the "king" category, and I can see myself trying it in the future. What I find alluring on the twinked approach is that it builds many of the base skills required to eventually try "legit" run (like map reading), but taking lot of the RNG frustration out of it. I think of it as "training mode".

.. means to an end, in order to level up new chars quickly....
In fact this was the original spark that got me thinking about this again - the need to level characters for the recent MP projects so I can finally start playing the hell builds, which I consider to be the game for me nowadays. I do have some cheese to help me get through N/NM, but I never really sat down and optimized it. And yet for every character I make, I need to, as you eloquently put, go through the first grade again and again. This way I can at least put some challenge back to those early levels and make them meaningful again, and at the same time go through them in as little time as possible.

Doesn't seem easy to beat Nano's times tbh, but who knows!

Not easy at all, the skill shown in the video will be very difficult to match. The route on the other hand has aparent spots ripe for improvement - the recent strat with farming fallen champ pack at jail WP seems extremely promising compared to barracks, especialy with twinked staves, I also believe there is a way to skip Den completely or perhaps do it way later with teleport, therefore saving minutes on this, just to name a few ideas. Well, even without you guys running, all ideas on the routing will be greatly appriciated!

Maybe sometime in the future I might give this a go to help boost myself toward the 9920 levels I have left in the Murios project.

You can still beat Max in less than half a year. Food for thought.

1.07 ravenclaw> it owns

It's a very universal option, and I love it for its simplicity, but it pretty much looses majority of its oomph in Act IV. Its other problem is lvl15 req. You can reach 12fpa@lvl16 with twitchthroe, with average ~718 aoe fire dps, but compare that to synergized lvl7 fireball charges at the same level (16) which do ~494 dps, but you can start using this setup at level 12. For reference, Sarinas minions will have if I calculate that right about 427 maximum hitpoints @p8, so fcr>ias in this case. And after level 30, everything gets dominated by cold mastery. Really, the more you start to optimize for absolute minimum required kills, the more marginal the edge of 1.07/1.09 RC starts to get and the narrower its useful level range gets ....
 
Disclaimer: I play mostly untwinked so my opinion on this is a bit biased.

I watched several GDQ and definitely want to try normal-only speed runs. Theres a stash full of plain diadems for me to imbue too. :)

I also watched several hell versions of the speed runs; but it seemed to involve too much dodging and skipping more than actual playing through the game - though i understand thats what speed running comes down to. All in all, i can see myself doing this as a sept; but probably not many more.


And while i dont mean to divert the main topic of this thread, it did give me an idea of tourney-style rules:

Typical tourney rules, but with something like an upper-limit of 15 hours of playtime. You may spend up to 5 hours per difficulty (or 3 per difficulty?); extra time may be spent however you wish, or be counted towards your score. Player with the highest score (most time saved) wins.

Now that ive talked about it, its definitely going up on my todo list. :p
 
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@Gynli the normal (untwinked?) sept idea is a nice one!

For the tournament, it may also be used strategically: a Sept with drops from previous characters allowed to be reused for the remaining dudes. Or a SP category, to make things harder...and I won't sign this particular category myself :p

Well, I'm pretty sure there's something to do, waiting for such tournament :)
 
In fact this was the original spark that got me thinking about this again - the need to level characters for the recent MP projects so I can finally start playing the hell builds, which I consider to be the game for me nowadays. I do have some cheese to help me get through N/NM, but I never really sat down and optimized it. And yet for every character I make, I need to, as you eloquently put, go through the first grade again and again. This way I can at least put some challenge back to those early levels and make them meaningful again, and at the same time go through them in as little time as possible.

This is where I might be interested, certainly speed running Hell I'm not. I feel like I have a production line running through NM at the moment, getting to lvl75 and NM Baal killed is quite interesting though.
 
^ @maxicek - yeah, ofcourse by the time you get to kill NM Baal you are like 85% done.

interesting tourney idea @Gynli I don't see this as a diversion, rather than a nice advertisement :) I would definitely participate. I bet having an upper limit on time spent on a D2 project is appealing for more people here, after all, most of us are not 20 year old bored university students anymore :D
 
This is interesting. As someone who has always been casually interested in speedrunning, I could see myself taking a crack at this once or twice.

As for waiting for other people to "join" before doing it, I say if you're motivated just do it. Lots of us can't resist the itch once we see others doing stuff. All you have to do is look at any sign-up portion of any tournament to see how easily we succumb to peer pressure. :LOL:
 
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I'm not keen to competitively speedrun, but I would love to learn and adopt methods and discoveries from those who do, and maybe even challenge myself to keep improving my own adventuring times. Thanks for bringing up the subject, @skiffcz.

I don't think folks here would object if you start more speedrunner discussion threads. Would you also be willing to solicit SPF-approved speedrunning techniques and advice, and then write or sponsor a speedrunning guide suitable for @maxicek to include in the pinned SPF community thread?

Over time, I have absorbed a few alleged time-saving habits. Example: I tend to explore act 1 catacombs' levels "counterclockwise" (find an edge and then hug the walls to my character's right), because I seem to find down-stairs and the waypoint faster when I do so. If I want to do a "full clear" exploration of a catacombs area, I might instead go clockwise (hug left wall), for the best chance of clearing as much as possible before finding a down-stair. Another example: after defeating Duriel, I talk to Jerhyn, then open a town portal in the harem in order to more quickly get to Meshif and continue to act 3. Anyway, it would be enlightening to learn others' time-saving practices, especially if they're collated in an easy reference.

If such a guide were hosted here, it might pique more SPFers to join your league. Proposed name: SSS, for "skiffcz's speedrunning society." :geek:
[edit: oh noes, I spelled skiffcz's name wrong!]
 
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Do you all keep a Khalims flail for your lowlevels until level 9?(civerbs is i feel a little better then)
Nope.
Code:
Gemmed Long Battle Bow
Long Battle Bow
Two Hand Damage: 3 - 18
Durability: 32 of 44
Required Level: 1
Required Strength: 16
Required Dexterity: 20
Fingerprint: 0x3f6f88c0
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+44 to Attack Rating
Adds 121 Poison Damage Over 2 Secs (300 Frames)
+5 Defense
+30 Maximum Stamina
27% Extra Gold from Monsters
Requirements -60%
6 Sockets (6 used)
Socketed: Ghoul Scarab
Socketed: Wraith Heart
Socketed: Raven Whorl
Socketed: Beast Heart
Socketed: Jewel of Envy
Socketed: Blanched Jewel of Envy
 
Khalim's flail isn't worth using really. :) Without going into class-specifics, I can chime in with a few twinking strategies I've used (all current-patch). Also this is with the aim of generally clearing P8 in order to consistently gain XP, i.e. aiming for Hell.

Charges
For Sorcs and I guess casters in general, the biggest edge early on (1-20 or so) is provided by staves with charges shopped with a high level char (I used 99er). This allows you to use something like lvl 11 (!) Charged Bolt on a lvl 1 Sorc. Here's what I use on Sorcs when I start a new one (for Sorc lvl reqs are -6):
Code:
Battle Staff of Charged Bolt
Battle Staff
Two Hand Damage: 6 - 13
Durability: 40 of 40
Required Level: 7
Fingerprint: 0x470a5889
Item Level: 99
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Level 11 Charged Bolt (71/71 Charges)
Code:
Battle Staff of Nova
Battle Staff
Two Hand Damage: 6 - 13
Durability: 40 of 40
Required Level: 18
Fingerprint: 0xc2bb15f1
Item Level: 99
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Level 7 Nova (56/56 Charges)
Code:
Battle Staff of Nova
Battle Staff
Two Hand Damage: 6 - 13
Durability: 40 of 40
Required Level: 18
Fingerprint: 0x2c8f41b
Item Level: 99
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+1 to Blaze (Sorceress Only)
Level 7 Nova (56/56 Charges)
Code:
Battle Staff of Teleportation
Battle Staff
Two Hand Damage: 6 - 13
Durability: 40 of 40
Required Level: 24
Fingerprint: 0xc702467b
Item Level: 99
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Level 6 Teleport (5/52 Charges)
Code:
War Staff of Teleportation
War Staff
Two Hand Damage: 12 - 28
Durability: 50 of 50
Required Level: 24
Fingerprint: 0x99e58358
Item Level: 99
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+2 to Lightning (Sorceress Only)
Level 6 Teleport (52/52 Charges)
Code:
War Staff of Teleportation
War Staff
Two Hand Damage: 12 - 28
Durability: 50 of 50
Required Level: 24
Fingerprint: 0x55cb9f52
Item Level: 99
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Level 6 Teleport (1/52 Charges)

Shopping these staves takes a while and I've only done it for Sorcs, but probably classes like Necro or Druid can go the same route.

The teleport staves I've used on all classes, they need to level a bit more before they can use them but still any twinked Hell speedrunner definitely wants these.

Skill charges are awesome because you do not use any mana and get high level skills early on. Ideally they only take 4 slots, but it's still OK to manage if a couple of them are 4x2. They need to be repaired often, but generally a full 2m+ bank account is enough for repairs until the char stops using the staves anyway and switch to their own skills.

With Sorc I normally stop using the charges when I pushed Nova to a higher level than what they give me, so normally at around level 20 unless I somehow spent 1-2 extra points in Static or so. This is then paired with Wall of the Eyeless and a 6x Tir socketed sword for the MPK needed to sustain casting. In general A3 and A4 are the acts that involve mana potting, before Insight can be used. I found it frustrating that you can't use it immediately at 27 because Merc isn't 27 yet and you can't hire a lvl 27 Merc -- so I now make sure that I have the strength points to immediately equip it myself, get a new lvl 26 Merc and hand it over to the Merc once he catches up.

Btw the 6x Tir sword + Wall of the Eyeless (or even 9 MPK tower shield with aureolic jewels) works nicely for many casters in general. Some chars can't use it though, e.g. Sin whose traps don't work with MPK, or Amazon. But e.g. for Amazon the same general idea works very nicely with an MPK javelin. Last Zon I played use a blue +1/5 MPK one and shredded everything until lvl 42 because she never had to stop spamming ChS and later LF.

Envy jewel'ed gear:
Always a solid choice for every single class, if not the best choice depending on class. 5x Envy bow, 3x Envy Breast Plate and 2x Envy Cap is what I start out with, equipped with the help of a few lvl 1 strength GCs if the char couldn't use it immediately otherwise. Even on P8 you will only stop 1-hitting things in the Barracks. Basically it's awesome for 1-18 or so, no matter the class, but not much further unless going down in player settings.

S&Us:
Staples are Hsaru's set, Eye of Etlich, Bloodfist, Tarnhelm, FCR/mana rings, Manald, Angelic for the early stages and depending on class. After equipping a mix of those, next gear change is normally 29 to swap in SoJs, Viper, SoE, and then another swap at 42 for skillers and sometimes the class-specific S&Us. Then it's pretty much smooth sailing until end game.

Also there's Death's set for melee chars, totally OP. Can carry literally through all of normal, I've had melee chars that only stopped using it at lvl 30 or so. The weapon can be Hel'ed to lower its requirements, I usually push dex as needed and get the remaining strengthneeded via charms so that I can equip it at lvl 6. It can still be used with Envy armor+helm and results in even better clear speed than just using Envy bow.

Runewords:
Spirit, Stealth, Rhyme, Leaf and Lore are all staples for obvious reasons and equipped as soon as possible. The other runewords I wouldn't bother, e.g. Malice, Strength and whatnot... pretty underwhelming.
 
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I guess you could, but I mean it's only used for a couple of minutes until going back to Spirit ;) and Merc needs polearm anyway. My twinking Insights are in ethereal Voulges as it only needs strength and no dex. The more I think about the more I think I might do a run or two just for the fun of it. :)
 
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