Some Basic Questions

[Krim]

Some Basic Questions

Hello all. I have some very basic questions for most of you in here I guess.

#1 Does the duration of the swirlies of mind blast increase with an increased skill level?

#2 If I take a lvl 20 BoS then I'll hit a 7/3/3/3/3 kick rate with a crescent moon long sword right?

#3 I've read somewhere in here that about 120% f r/w is required for desynching, not that I'm aiming for desynch but is this for item provided faster run walk, and if so, what is the limit for skill provided faster run walk (i.e. level 20 BoS together with some item f r / w)

Thank you.

 

[Silent Shaddow]

wow, lvl 20 bos,
i dont think i ever heard anything so crazy
erm, with lvl 20bos ull definately hit the break point (u would have done ~15 skill levels previously as well ) and u gain 61frw (this is skill mod and so the effect is different to item mod iirc)

massive dimishing returns means that you wont have gain much from putting 1 point in and letting skills bring it up, ofc u could prebuff it higher but it seems a waste of hard skill points to me

frw is uncapped and has no breakpoints but suffers from diminishing returns

 

[Krim]

wow, lvl 20 bos,
i dont think i ever heard anything so crazy
erm, with lvl 20bos ull definately hit the break point (u would have done ~15 skill levels previously as well ) and u gain 61frw (this is skill mod and so the effect is different to item mod iirc)

massive dimishing returns means that you wont have gain much from putting 1 point in and letting skills bring it up, ofc u could prebuff it higher but it seems a waste of hard skill points to me

frw is uncapped and has no breakpoints but suffers from diminishing returns

Thank you for the answer.

According the the stickied speed tables of D-Talon I would need level 20 or 21 BoS to reach the 7/3/3/3/3 kick rate with a -10 long sword. But this isn't so according to you, couldn't you please enlighten me in the point where I read the tables wrong? Thank you.

Yes I've found the formula of f r / w and should probably have precised my question, I've done the math myself but wants it confirmed if possible, to be more precise. I've read somewhere in here there is needed 120% f r / w is required for desynching. I assume this must be 120% from items which has diminshing returns, since I think I read it in the amazon forum. (Maybe the pvp forum well really not sure). Since there isn't dimishing returns on the skill increasement itself of f r / w, then I wantet to know how much +% from skills you need for it to be just as effective as the 120% f r / w from items. Thank you.

Again thank you for the answer I really do appreciate it.

PS: You don't know about #1 with the mind blast do you? :sad2:

 

[Dimmu Borgir]

One note, if you're using a Crescent Moon longsword to increase your Lightning Sentry or Death Sentry's damage, you're out of luck. Traps are considered minions and do not benefit from your mods.

However if you're going Claws of Thunder / Phoenix Strike, that's a different story. EDIT: Just remembered CoT is claw-only, and you have a longsword, so that's a no-go. So basically only the 2nd charge of Phoenix Strike.

As for Mind Blast, the only things increased are the physical damage, stun duration and chance to convert I believe. Since you really only want the stun out of it, its not a good idea to invest in it 'cause you'll convert more often and the enemies will therefore just be a niusance, because their damage-to-health ratio is so rediculously messed up. Mind Blasts' stun duration isn't affected by difficulty switch like War Cry or Smite's, so you don't need more than one point in it for the stun.

 

[Silent Shaddow]

plz be aware that the ias on bos is different to the ias on weapons etc and therefore can not be compared,
on bos it is know as Effective IAS or from hence forth EIAS,

however if u have no ias on weapons or anything you are going to struggle for max speed, however beyond ~ 5/6 it becomes much easier to just equip some ias as bos suffers from dimishing returns, at lvl 9 bos you only need 19 ias to reach the fastest speed, easily picked up on gloves however on a cresent moon sword you have 20 ias all set, therefore from an speed point of view greater than lvl 9 isnt needed,

futhermore you are kicking, so it makes much more sence to make it in a faster weapon, ie the best bet would be a phase blade, allowing you to hit the fastest speed almost instantly (lvl 2 bos)

 

[Krim]

One note, if you're using a Crescent Moon longsword to increase your Lightning Sentry or Death Sentry's damage, you're out of luck. Traps are considered minions and do not benefit from your mods.

However if you're going Claws of Thunder / Phoenix Strike, that's a different story. EDIT: Just remembered CoT is claw-only, and you have a longsword, so that's a no-go. So basically only the 2nd charge of Phoenix Strike.

As for Mind Blast, the only things increased are the physical damage, stun duration and chance to convert I believe. Since you really only want the stun out of it, its not a good idea to invest in it 'cause you'll convert more often and the enemies will therefore just be a niusance, because their damage-to-health ratio is so rediculously messed up. Mind Blasts' stun duration isn't affected by difficulty switch like War Cry or Smite's, so you don't need more than one point in it for the stun.

Thank you for your answer Dimmu Borgir.

I guess I should had stated I'm planning on using the CM for a kicker, or atleast for the pvm part of my assassin, I do also expect to use a DS, but the lightning part of the CW runeword didn't even struck me so none the less I guess I'm not going to get any dissapointments :grin:

Yeah it says so on the skill, but I wondered, when the stun duration increases, does the swirlies also? I intend to use mind blast for pvm, as well as pvp, the swirlies are very interesting for the pvp prospect.

Well I'm not going for any of those elemental material art stuff, that is more like a shadow warriors betting, I mean after reading the SW teacher guide it's easy for one to see that a SW can get an insane damage with Claws of Thunder lvl 50 + Phoenix strike lvl 50 as a synergy, on top of it you'd off course have to maks your SW, and even maksing faith would make her almost indestructible, beside since Phoenix strike would her only prebuff for synergising she wouldn't take long to recast, she could probably kill diablo on hell alone, but hey what minion can't do that these times (thinking about SuperDave here :wink3: )

plz be aware that the ias on bos is different to the ias on weapons etc and therefore can not be compared,
on bos it is know as Effective IAS or from hence forth EIAS,

however if u have no ias on weapons or anything you are going to struggle for max speed, however beyond ~ 5/6 it becomes much easier to just equip some ias as bos suffers from dimishing returns, at lvl 9 bos you only need 19 ias to reach the fastest speed, easily picked up on gloves however on a cresent moon sword you have 20 ias all set, therefore from an speed point of view greater than lvl 9 isnt needed,

futhermore you are kicking, so it makes much more sence to make it in a faster weapon, ie the best bet would be a phase blade, allowing you to hit the fastest speed almost instantly (lvl 2 bos)

Thank you for taking your time for another answer silent shaddow.

I wasn't aware of the difference between IAS, and EIAS, since EIAS was introduced in the FAQ in a way I really didn't understand well. But on the other hand I didn't compare those out of some formula I compared them out of a table here on the assassin forum. The thread containing this table is called something with "attack speed (recent)" and it's stickied. I looked for the table with Dragon Talon, and found that for a -10 WSM (Long Sword) I would need a level 20 BoS for a 7/3/3/3/3. If I've understood the tables correct that I'm not sure off, and from what you're writing it doesn't seems like it. I must admit it would be nice to only invest a little bit in BoS because of the dimishing returns you described earlier.

Yes I know about the phase blade, but since my char is a low budget char (she may only use the items she finds herself) then wont have enough +stats to make the dex she needs and still makes sure she gets the amount of hit points I think she deserves. That's why I'm considering the long sword option. On the other hand I might just use a black flail or somehing.

Against thank you to both of you to take you the time for answering my question.

 

[BIGeyedBUG]

According the the stickied speed tables of D-Talon I would need level 20 or 21 BoS to reach the 7/3/3/3/3 kick rate with a -10 long sword. But this isn't so according to you, couldn't you please enlighten me in the point where I read the tables wrong? Thank you.

You're reading it right, but forgetting the 20 IAS you automatically get from Crescent Moon. (Plus any other IAS you might have on your gear.)

Not that it probably matters in this case but just FYI, it's easier and often enough to aim for 3 frame secondary kicks rather than 7 frame primary. Every frame you chop off of the secondaries saves you multiple frames on an attack cycle, whereas dropping a frame from the primary saves you...1 frame.

edit: just saw your follow up post...

After you cross reference WSM and BoS level on those tables, the target number given is the amount of equipment IAS you need to reach max speed. Hope that helps.

 

[Krim]

You're reading it right, but forgetting the 20 IAS you automatically get from Crescent Moon. (Plus any other IAS you might have on your gear.)

Not that it probably matters in this case but just FYI, it's easier and often enough to aim for 3 frame secondary kicks rather than 7 frame primary. Every frame you chop off of the secondaries saves you multiple frames on an attack cycle, whereas dropping a frame from the primary saves you...1 frame.

Hi BIGeyedBUG thank you for the answer.

I guess I didn't see the 20% WIAS, or maybe my item source is wrong. I'm very fond to hear that I've read the tables correct.

I'm not sure what you're saying, but I guess you mean that since the secondaries of attacks have the same speed, then for everytime you lower those 1 frame, you actually make a total lowering of 1-5 frames all depending on your gear. If that's the case I do off course agree with that, but well when you can get that 7 frame initial kick then why not. :wink3:

Edit: PS: Doesn't anyone know about the swirlies and mind blast comeon guys after all you're the experienced deathly assassins you must know your own skills hehe :wink3:

2xEdit: Haha, and I just saw your edit :grin: yes that do really helps a lot, now I know I can safe a lot of skill investment, and I have also got a better understanding of what silent shaddow was telling me.:smiley: Thank you again.

 

[BIGeyedBUG]

Hi BIGeyedBUG thank you for the answer.

I guess I didn't see the 20% WIAS, or maybe my item source is wrong. I'm very fond to hear that I've read the tables correct.

I'm not sure what you're saying, but I guess you mean that since the secondaries of attacks have the same speed, then for everytime you lower those 1 frame, you actually make a total lowering of 1-5 frames all depending on your gear. If that's the case I do off course agree with that, but well when you can get that 7 frame initial kick then why not. :wink3:

Just to be clear on the table question, with just level 5 BoS and the 20 IAS on Crescent Moon, you'll have a 7 frame primary kick.

As far as primary vs. secondary kick speed goes, here's an example:

8/4/4/4/4 kick cycle = 24 frames total
8/3/3/3/3 kick cycle = 20 frames
7/3/3/3/3 kick cycle = 19 frames

So getting to a 3 frame secondary kick saves you 4 frames total, while that last breakpoint for a 7 frame only saves 1 additional frame. Consequently, getting 7/3 is nice, but if it requires a lot of sacrifice, it's not really worth it.

If you're committed to a -10 weapon and BoS, it doesn't really matter. You'll be at 7/3 regardless with no BoS investment once +skills are taken into account. However *it does* mean that Fade rather than BoS is the usual option for most Kickers, because it's very doable and getting all those resists and PDR is so valuable, whereas shaving one frame off a kick cycle is just a luxury.

If you look at the table for follow-up kicks and notice how comparitively easy they are to achieve, you'll see what I mean.

 

[Krim]

Just to be clear on the table question, with just level 5 BoS and the 20 IAS on Crescent Moon, you'll have a 7 frame primary kick.

As far as primary vs. secondary kick speed goes, here's an example:

8/4/4/4/4 kick cycle = 24 frames total
8/3/3/3/3 kick cycle = 20 frames
7/3/3/3/3 kick cycle = 19 frames

So getting to a 3 frame secondary kick saves you 4 frames total, while that last breakpoint for a 7 frame only saves 1 additional frame. Consequently, getting 7/3 is nice, but if it requires a lot of sacrifice, it's not really worth it.

If you're committed to a -10 weapon and BoS, it doesn't really matter. You'll be at 7/3 regardless with no BoS investment once +skills are taken into account. However *it does* mean that Fade rather than BoS is the usual option for most Kickers, because it's very doable and getting all those resists and PDR is so valuable, whereas shaving one frame off a kick cycle is just a luxury.

If you look at the table for follow-up kicks and notice how comparitively easy they are to achieve, you'll see what I mean.

Hi BIGeyedBUG thank you for your comment.

Your example shows that I understood exactly what you ment, and yes I do agree with you that comparing 1 frame of speed against the power of fade, fade sure wins, but I'm guessing that since a kicksin is so viable already, and with a life tap charged wand shopped in act3 normal, then I can go for the luxury, and the 1 frame faster killing power :flip:

I guess I'll only have to use fade against uber meph if I use life tap together with some high damage boots (upped gore) a high % of CB, and some medicore resist, which really isn't hard to get even with budget gear.
Gooo Assassins :grin:

 

[Krim]

First: Sorry for the bump this post is going to make.

Second: Comeon can't anyone in here answer the Mind Blast question? :wink3:

I dare you! :grin:

Thank you in advance.

 

[Silent Shaddow]

took me all of 5 secs to chek arreat summit to see that yes it does increase duration, altho this is mostly unhelpful in pvm as it also increases chance to convert (not helpful )

 

[Krim]

took me all of 5 secs to chek arreat summit to see that yes it does increase duration, altho this is mostly unhelpful in pvm as it also increases chance to convert (not helpful )

Thank you silent shaddow, although I fear we don't talk about the same thing here.

If the time the swirlies are activate is the same as the thing you've checked is correct then I'm you very thankful, but I fear that you've just seen that the stun duration increases, which doesn't have to have anything to do with the swirlies to do.

Yes I do agree with you as you told me that high level mind blast isn't any better than 1 point for pvm, but I'm also both pvm, and pvp intended.

If the swirlies goes longer, then I can have my opponent in hit recovery for a longer time in pvp and in the same time transfer some venom damage.

Just what I had in mind. :smiley:

 

[HappyAssassin]

The main purpose of a high level mind blast is to aid in trap stun, the longer duration makes it more likely that the oppoenent will get tripped up by a trap as they teleport or run around.

 

[Krim]

The main purpose of a high level mind blast is to aid in trap stun, the longer duration makes it more likely that the oppoenent will get tripped up by a trap as they teleport or run around.

Hey HappyAssassin

Exactly iff the swirlies duration increases. As long as there is swirlies the trap will make the opponent go into faster hit recovery animation or in good english stun. So as far as I can understand from your current statement my question:

Does the duration of the swirlies in mind blast increase with an increased level of mind blast?

Would have the answer: Yes.

For a follow up question, how much then? (Notice I don't think that stun duration, and swirlies duration is the same, as an example you could mind blast a zombie, the swirlies will be down for 1 second, but the zombie can be stunned for 5 seconds, on the other hand if you did this to e.g. a sorc, the sorc would maybe only be stunned for 1 second (if hitted by e.g. WoF) and then be in faster hit recovery animation for the last time she was hit during the duration of the swirlies probably making it of a total 1.8 second or something.)

If the case is stun duration = swirlies duration then you could in the principe easily kill most casters using a high level mindblast in a WoF trap field or just in a far out case have some minion poundering the opponent while you Mind Blast all the time.

Thank you for your input.