Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

thefrag

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Apr 24, 2005
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Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

In the situation where you have to shael your claw + 15/15 your circlet for the trap lay breakpoint, is it worth it for that shael on a hybrid sin? You lose 25% open wounds, how big of an impact will this make?

Does this weaken your whirlwind too much?

How important is that trap breakpoint in comparison?

This is the dilemma I'm having for almost every single fools claw I find. Basically all of the decent fools claws with 3 LS and other mods included lack the proper IAS, or lack the proper base claw type. This means I have to make a hard decision, and it's not one I like to make >_<

Also I asked before and got no answer, how viable is using highlords instead of maras for that 20 needed IAS, which allows you to UM claw?

Highlords + um = 33% deadly strike and 25% open wounds, makes your whirl a lot stronger.

Maras + shael = More resist, 1 more skills, and 5 all stats. You get no open wounds or deadly strike, but have better overall stats/res.

ISO: Feedback!
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

hi frag, nice to see you here (disregard this message if you're not the same frag in other forum).
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

I definitely am :D I remember this place being a whole lot more active a year+ ago though, seems nearly dead now >_<
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

Right away, it seems this is a claw choice issue. It'll kill your OW unless you have another high source, but only important if you focus on it (usually a venom one and all).


Is 9 frame traps worth 25% OW? Certainly. Will it kill you to do that? hardly.
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

It's definitely a claw choice issue. What it comes down to is the stats available and my alternatives.

Basically the fools I'm looking at right now:

Greater Claw with:
2 assassin skills
3 lightning sentry
1 dragon flight
Fools
20 IAS base

Another claw I was looking at earlier:
Suwwaya
2 trap
3 lightning sentry
40 ias
fools
cruel

Both of these fall short of 9 frame trapping, but make up for it by being trapclaws as well as fools claws. So far the best claws I've seen for it >_< Are these claws ideal? Not at all, but assuming these are my best option, what should I do >_<

highlords -or- shael -or- ignore the trap bp all together. I'm assuming shael is the best bet atm? I freaking hate having no um >_<
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

Ah, now it just falls to a technique error ;)

If you get a "Chaos" Suwayyah, and WSM bug, it requires 19% IAS on a -30 WSM fools claw. Oh hey, lookey there! you have such a claw :p
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

Ah, now it just falls to a technique error ;)

If you get a "Chaos" Suwayyah, and WSM bug, it requires 19% IAS on a -30 WSM fools claw. Oh hey, lookey there! you have such a claw :p
Since when was greater claw -30? It's not greater talon >_<

Either way I was under the impression that:
GT + GT (-30 average) requires 42 ias total.
GT + GC (-25 average) requires something like 55 ias.
GC + GC (-20 average) would require even more, forgive me for not looking this up since this setup seemed impossible to work with regardless. (since 40 ias is best possible on claw + 15 from helm = 55, anything more requires socketing the claw for IAS)

Anyway, wouldn't WSM bug with Suwwaya chaos and a fools GC end up with -20 average? I thought WSM bug essentially gave both your claws the base speed of your glove side claw.

If I'm wrong and as you said the post above, this is easily done with 19 ias somehow.. please tell me why that is. I may just be misunderstanding the WSM bug.



 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

O.O I could have sworn It said GT...That's what I get for reading too fast. :(

A GC is already -20, so WSM bugging wil be faster (-30, so 42 IAS). If 20 IAS, then yes to shael + jewel.

Bugging works differently. It's job is to give you as faster speed than your primary.


the 19 was ME misunderstanding. ><
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

Ok well the problem I see here is:

You usually WSM with a fools GT and a suwaya chaos right? Reason being the faster claw of the two has to be your fools claw, since that ends up being the claw your char screen uses the attack rating of?

How can I WSM with a GC fools, and make my fools even faster? Explain lol.
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

You usually WSM with a fools GT and a suwaya chaos right? Reason being the faster claw of the two has to be your fools claw, since that ends up being the claw your char screen uses the attack rating of?
Correct.

If WSMing with a GC fools (assuming the Suwayyah still), then there's not much to do. It'll act as -30 WSM, so 42 IAS. The only way to really fix that is a GT / RT instead of GC.
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

In the situation where you have to shael your claw + 15/15 your circlet for the trap lay breakpoint, is it worth it for that shael on a hybrid sin? You lose 25% open wounds, how big of an impact will this make?

Does this weaken your whirlwind too much?

How important is that trap breakpoint in comparison?

This is the dilemma I'm having for almost every single fools claw I find. Basically all of the decent fools claws with 3 LS and other mods included lack the proper IAS, or lack the proper base claw type. This means I have to make a hard decision, and it's not one I like to make >_<

Also I asked before and got no answer, how viable is using highlords instead of maras for that 20 needed IAS, which allows you to UM claw?

Highlords + um = 33% deadly strike and 25% open wounds, makes your whirl a lot stronger.

Maras + shael = More resist, 1 more skills, and 5 all stats. You get no open wounds or deadly strike, but have better overall stats/res.

ISO: Feedback!

maras + shael is a bad idea.
Um claw socket if possible, using ias jewel or shael for claw socket is a waste imo. Highlords helps with the ias and is recommended for claw damage anyway.

as stated by sass, by wsm bugging with the fools/20ias claw and a suwayyah chaos you'll have -30 wsm which you can get with 42ias (claw + highlords + helm socket)
this will be nice for the duels where you want more trap damage however.. the claw lacks any ed% so the highlords DS% doesnt use the potential it should have. this is pretty bad and your only big hits will be coming from the chaos, so do pay attention to your chaos ed%.

the other claw.. has some really amazing mods but unfortunately its a suwayyah so getting the trap bp is an issue. 10fpa trapping @ suwayyah fools/runic chaos regular equipping is 44ias bp, but 10fpa isn't ideal, although very playable for casuals still imo. 9fpa trapping is 75 ias which well.. you actually could make since the claw has ias on it, 40ias on suwayyah + 20ias highlords + 40/15 jewel in helm.
so ya, you could make the bp with suwayyah fools/runic chaos regular equipping. very nice claw mods there. Um the claw.

btw, how is your dr% looking with a hybrid build using highlords 65fcr setup? have a ber in the circlet? shadow gc inv?



 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

maras + shael is a bad idea.
Um claw socket if possible, using ias jewel or shael for claw socket is a waste imo. Highlords helps with the ias and is recommended for claw damage anyway.

as stated by sass, by wsm bugging with the fools/20ias claw and a suwayyah chaos you'll have -30 wsm which you can get with 42ias (claw + highlords + helm socket)
this will be nice for the duels where you want more trap damage however.. the claw lacks any ed% so the highlords DS% doesnt use the potential it should have. this is pretty bad and your only big hits will be coming from the chaos, so do pay attention to your chaos ed%.

the other claw.. has some really amazing mods but unfortunately its a suwayyah so getting the trap bp is an issue. 10fpa trapping @ suwayyah fools/runic chaos regular equipping is 44ias bp, but 10fpa isn't ideal, although very playable for casuals still imo. 9fpa trapping is 75 ias which well.. you actually could make since the claw has ias on it, 40ias on suwayyah + 20ias highlords + 40/15 jewel in helm.
so ya, you could make the bp with suwayyah fools/runic chaos regular equipping. very nice claw mods there. Um the claw.

btw, how is your dr% looking with a hybrid build using highlords 65fcr setup? have a ber in the circlet? shadow gc inv?

First of all I want to be clear on the WSM bugging. How does a GC with -20 WSM and a Suwwaya with 0 WSM end up with -30? I thought bugging with this setup yields -20 as my result (as opposed to -10 without bugging).

Anyway, I haven't finished making this sin yet. I realize that while planning this build out, I was under the assumption that I had max fade along with full shadow GC's etc, which is unrealistic. As a result DR is indeed going to be an issue. (again it has been like a year and a half since I played d2, I forgot how much every skillpoint is in demand for a hybrid specifically >_<)

If I have 1 point base fade, then I can expect level 26 fade + 8 dr from enigma without fade prebuff claws, or add 9 (potentially more if I use a 3 shadow ammy / soj / etc too..) Either way 34 without prebuff, and potentially 45+ with prebuff isn't maxed out, so yeah I guess that's a flaw I failed to notice. I don't like to rely on prebuffing to begin with, but at least I can potentially make due if I choose to, so I guess there is always that.

Back on topic though, highlords + a nice fools claw is actually viable then? I consider deadly strike a massive benefit, but I always thought that the actual physical dps you dish out doesn't even compare to open wounds / venom damage you do during a whirl. Am I underestimating the value of claw damage itself with a cruel/fools in general?

I was basically searching for claws under the assumption that 2 sockets is more damage than cruel + 1 socket due to the other um.



 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

First of all I want to be clear on the WSM bugging. How does a GC with -20 WSM and a Suwwaya with 0 WSM end up with -30? I thought bugging with this setup yields -20 as my result (as opposed to -10 without bugging).
That -10 non bugging is added by the -20 (right minus left (-20 minus zero = -20). -10 + -20 = -30. Formula:

WSM Bugging

WSM bugging is a little trick used to lower the AWSM of your two claws, lowering the IAS requirements for trap + non-WW animations. It works by placing your secondary claw in your inventory first. That means that after you switch to your weapons, lift and replace your glove-side claw, and it’ll bug your WSM.

Instead of just averaging the WSM’s of the two claws, your AWSM = average + (right WSM – left WSM). So, for example, if you use a Runic Talon (-30 WSM) in the boot-side slot and a Suwayyah (0 WSM) in the glove-side slot, if you bug the WSM, you’ll have an AWSM = -15 + (-30 - 0) = -45 instead of -15 like you would if you didn’t bug it. It’ll help you reach your trap IAS BP’s if you use a slow claw on one hand. If you look at the equation, it’ll tell you to make sure that if you DO use a slow claw, make sure the fast one is in the secondary slot, so when you bug it, it makes your AWSM faster. Otherwise, it’ll actually slow down AWSM. To simplify, a chart is included below, showing the AWSM’s for every claw combination after WSM bugging.

I don't recommend pre-buff for either Dr or venom, or any other reason. it is too time consuming and just not worth it.

That 34 naturally + another Ber from helm gets you 42, so works if you have a 1 soc circ, or BerBer a 2soc one. ~40+ DR is usually fine in a pub environment with mixed chars anyway.

There's always the classic venom vs phys damage. Don't let either scare you though. True, physical damage (and the DS) benefits from high ED on the fools (and a good base like runic). On a hybrid, it is usually harder to pull off than using venom, and if you have GT/GC's as claws, then the base dmg is lower already. Not a bad thing since venom / OW can be deadly, especially on hybrids.

Now, a Cruel + 1 soc can get more ED / DS on it, AR/damage, etc. 2x Uming will boost odds that it triggers, without adding more damage itself. A high OW is always good, so low damage claws are absolutely perfect for a source of OW.

The Cruel is usually a powerful claw, and fools ones can be amazing. Built around it, they can indeed be strong claws, and perhaps many do underestimate how well they can do. These are harder to get though.
 
Re: Shael or Um Claw for hybrid

I would suggest getting a Runic Talon/Greater Talon Chaos and just WSM glitching your fools claw (probably the suwayyah since it seems better). Just need that and 15IAS from helm.

Don't believe the lying character screen you don't lose the AR from fools if you bug it.
 
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