pvp ww/kick/trap vs ww/traper

[akumaxyz]

pvp ww/kick/trap vs ww/traper

i have a pvp sin base on speedlander's guide, was wondering how a mix trap/ww sin with synergize traps would do

 

[Moritz]

I got a ww/ls/kick, and I actually don't see any point why NOT to have kicks on a ww/ls assassin.
It only costs 1 hard skill point and with the +skills you have you easily reach 3 kicks usually. (I got +2sin skills on my fools even, so I get +14 all skills = lvl15 DT)
And kicks are just superior to WW in certain situations in my eyes and DT chainlocks are simply awesome.

Just follow HappyAssassin's guide and put one into DT.

 

[akumaxyz]

hehe its too late for that, i aready max alot of skills like claw mastery, mindblast, even if i do traps now it wont be powerful enough, although max mind blast is really funny

 

[Glorft]

You could use Wake of fire - its an option but not superior to ls though not a bad one . You wont get that much dmg but i suppose if fully synergised it wont fall under 0.9k - doesnt sound much but in some cases does miracles - ive played a kick/wof hybrid and i can say that in some cases its better than ls . But for all round use i recommend LS . Its your choice . But if i were you id try it out to see if it fits my gameplay . A fully synergised wof requires 60 skill points .

 

[akumaxyz]

i have level 1 base ls and wof, i am trying to see which build is better overall for pvp, ww/kick/ with base lvl traps just for stun or ww/synergize traps with kick but, level 1 base claw mastery, lvl 2 mindblast.

 

[Speedasin]

Not sure there is a clear better overall, but I think the pure ww/kick/base traps is more my style, higher ww/kick damage, better AR, better mindblast, probably better weapon block, etc.

It's all personal preference, I think fire or lightning can be negated pretty easily, especially on a hybrid and the other advantages I listed or didn't list. Still, nice to have and lots of people have tricked out hybrids, seems to be the new thing lately.

 

[akumaxyz]

i barely do damage to barbs unless i use ww and that is a bit hard since going ww vs barb ww is suicide,all i do is mb them doing little damage.

synergize traps seems definitely better on paper, with a 7k lightning sentry you will do about 170 max damage to someone with tgods on, does anyone have one that can share some thoughts?

 

[Speedasin]

So, you think 7k traps are going to handle them? Widowmaker might be a better option if you want a ranged attack.

 

[Moritz]

7k traps + tele/ww flashs will definitely handle the mediocre barbs =)

the godly ones cant and will never be beaten by a wwsin or any hybrid type.
but I think that the 7k traps help a LOT against barbs and all kinds of palas, even if they could abs it, not all do so. And after all they must sacrifice their first choice gear for tgods and wisps etc which brings you at least a little bit.

 

[Smithenator]

I agree with moritz, a godly wwbarb will never be beaten by any wwsin of any sort, including the 10k trap ones that prebuff for entire seasons.

 

[order]

ive played both. i currently play with my ww/wof/kick even though im not totally finished. i maxed trap and synergies and venom and she works very well, altho i think ls traps work better against nonsorbing melee. i find that i dont get sorbed when using wof nearly as much.

at least in my realm i find kicks really arent all that effective altho maybe i just havent gotten the technique completely down yet.

i really want to try a fully synergized ls trap hybrid eventually but i havent found an adequate fools claw to compensate for the loss in venom dmg. i think they have the most potential to beat any class... 12-13k traps and 2-3k ww damage is achieveable with optimal gear choices.

 

[Speedasin]

I believe trap hybrids are easier but not by any means better, actually quite the opposite.

 

[Moritz]

hmmm I still don't understand why so many people think that a ''Speederländersin'' was better for 1v1s than a nice ww/ls/@.

I mean, what does a ghostsin provide that a hybridsin doesnt have?
for example, my hybrid has 5k ar with fury without ench, 11k with fools without ench and 16k ar with ench, 22k ar with ench and angelics.
My venom dmg is (if prebuffed) exactly the same and if non-prebuffed slightly lower. I reach all the breakpoints that a ghostsin reaches (65fc, 48fhr, 60% clawblock with 1 skill in it, over 4k life, 75++ resi without anya, 50%dr all the time, 7/3/3 kicks, 9fps traps).

The only difference between the builds is that you lose some MB dmg and swirl dura but gain 7k+ damage traps to support you instead.
The conclusion that I draw here is that a hybrid is superior to a ghost-oriented-sin as the traps help a LOT against barbs and all kinds of paladins.
Now you'll say ''traps will get sorbed easily etc''. Well, so what? Except for the lower MB dmg (a hybrid has still about 150dmg though) and the slightly lower ar and ww dmg it's still the same. And by using massive abs gear, your opponent won't be able to use his gear of first choice so this countervails the lower MB dmg.
I wanna add here that in gm duels people usually don't sorb 100%, and even with a tgod's you still do a nice amount of damage with traps.
As for bm duels I also wona say that a ghostsin is no good for bm duels neither; the assassin as a whole class isn't competitive in bm duels imo as they can all either be absorbed or almost absorbed (e.g. with anitdotes or andy's against any wwsin/kicksin).
And for FFA duels, a hybrid does a better job as she can't be absorbed fully by all the players in a game, or they won't be able to abs any other element than light at all.
So, in a all vs all, damaging traps tend to be very helpful.


And Speedasin, what exactly do you mean by ''hybrids are easier''?

 

[Speedasin]

I didn't say they were easy, just easier and IMO less time to master than a pure WW sin. Regardless, one of the more difficult builds to get good at.

Your AR will be lower, some can get 30 k WW w/CM mastered your venom damage won't be the same, I'm disregarding venom prebuffing because that throws all numbers off. Lots of things are possible with pre buffing. Your WW damage will be lower.

Maxing Mind Blast is pretty nice, I've noticed a difference in 40+ mind blast and that my SM spams it like crazy compared to even level 30+. This allows for more stun locking opportunities.

I think hybrids are fine but everybody thinks hybrids are the be-all-end-all and superior to a more pure WW sin and I don't think that is true at all.

I think the huge appeal is ranged damage and can be acquired with a widowmaker. Plus, better range.

 

[Speedasin]

I believe trap hybrids are easier but not by any means better, actually quite the opposite.

Just wanted to add that I posted the last part in jest, I don't even think pure builds are clearly better than a more trapper orientated hybrid. I don't even PvP anymore (not rich enough, just restarted)

 

[Moritz]

hmm okay, I agree with some points and ofc the venom dmg can be lower, but you could also have a 3ls 3venom 1-3df chaos or whatever and a +2sin @@ fools so the dmg difference can be really minimal, depends heavily on gear though.

But I can't really see why you say hybrids are easier to play than pure wwsins.
Isn't it pretty much the same? except for the fact that there's a more defensive aspect added, in case you wanna fall back in your traps sometimes to regroup or anything.
You stunlock just in the same way, I use wof and LS combined just like a wwsin with only base lvled traps.
I played a ww/kick/stun assassin before my current one and I thought that the points in df and sm were pretty much wasted, because the high DF level will most likely cause your sm to go on suicide missions and my sm is often immune to cold/light/fire when it's baselevel'd (I have +25 to all shadowskills on my hybrid), and I don't think that CM is really worth to be maxed because the ar and damage gain isn't that big. So I decided to spend the skills rather on some traps.
After all, I think it's a matter of preferance, but I was just wondering why people actually think that a hybrid build isn't as good for 1v1s as a pure ww assassin. The stats speak for themselves in my eyes.

 

[Speedasin]

Dflight worked wonders in situations involving sorcs for me as a means of a secondary short tele device and applying OW.

I think it's easier as the learning curve isn't near as steep, you can lean on your trap damage in areas you may lack in WW usage or applying kicks, namelocks, chainlock skills, etc.

 

[Moritz]

yeah possibly, but if you imagine someone who is really experienced in wwing and kicking and add then traps, dont you think he might be able to combine all to a even more deadly mix?
I understand what you mean and it's probably true that pure wwsin players have the better wwing and kicking skills, but that has nothing to do with the build itself.

 

[HappyAssassin]

Just wanted to add that I posted the last part in jest, I don't even think pure builds are clearly better than a more trapper orientated hybrid. I don't even PvP anymore (not rich enough, just restarted)

Maybe you should try a little dueling in the modern PvP enviroment. The reason everyone is using hybrids these days is that they are seeing greater effectiveness. Your venom should be EXACTLY the same with a well geared hybrid or a well geared ghost (maybe 1 less if the ghost has a a 3/20/2 shadow circ). Your MB will be less. Claw Mastery is completely worthless. Every WWsin I've know who build CM on their assassin (even the hybrids with 4k traps) has gotten rid of it on a remake. Max'ed MB is nice.

If you wanna talk about learning curve, consider that max MB shortens the curve. You don't need to manually MB nearly as much.

As for Widowmaker, try actually dueling a little bit and then tell me its an equal ranged attack. There are some very, very skilled duelers (wizadept on these forums for example) who can use Widowmaker effectively in dueling. For the most part, it is slow, lacks serious damage on a teleporter, you have to use the weapon switch (which is harder than it seems), you cannot recast BO and you have no block at all. Traps maintain block, are part of the stun locking proccess in the 1st place, don't miss as much and take less time to put on the target.

It's not so much about stats as how things mesh on a character. Actual dueling doesn't have a lot regard for stats.

 

[akumaxyz]

i have remake into max synergize ls it works alot better in pubs, still missing those nice 3 venom 3 ls runic talons.