New patch 2.4.3 - opinions?

[snickersnack]

Whatever, I've started a barb two hours ago, but I'm not sure yet which endgame weapon(s) he will end up with. That depends on what I can figure out how WW really works. Probably not something with phase blades, as PBs are range 2 weapons (respectively rangeadder 1) which is not that good for WW... and definitely no BAs, they don't look manly enough on barbs and two-handed swords are making that nice WHOOSH sound when being swung.

I have a single Grief PB (on my zealot), but I don't like the idea of putting high-end stuff into the shared stash, in order to share it among my characters. I'm no communist !!11!

Oath is a good option if you have some good bases. My WW goldfind barb in 1.14d uses a Grief PB with an Oath Cryptic Sword (eth from 1.07). If you have plenty of Lo runes, Grief in a Flamberge is pretty good.

 

[krischan]

Yes, Oath is among the options for my WW barb. It has a quite huge %ed range though, so, I'm a bit afraid of eneding up with a low roll. But I think I have enough Mal runes and socketables for several rolls on it.

I have no HRs to spend at this moment. Everything went into Grief and a Faith bow... I totally love physical bowazons and once I had a lucky Jah find (and getting 4 sockets in a +3 GMB with the cube recipe) I had to make a Faith GMB. For me, fixing strafe and dodge/avoid/evade was a major accomplishment of D2R! Have a physical bowazon with Faith, enter the Pits, press the button and everything dies. It's awesome!

I'm probably not making a goldfind character in D2R, as gathering gold has become so convenient with auto-pickup. Too bad that it doesn't combine well with /nopickup though. I would also like auto-pickup of scrolls or ammunition if the tomes or quiver aren't full.

 

[Kruemelmonschda]

Too bad that it doesn't combine well with /nopickup though. I would also like auto-pickup of scrolls or ammunition if the tomes or quiver aren't full.

That has been fixed in the patch 2.4.2. Since then you can use /nopickup and still auto pickup gold.

 

[bill_n_opus]

Just levelled a dual swing/frenzy barb through Normal and into Nightmare and respeced it for WW, combing my stashes for suitable levelling gear.

Found a bonesnap and it worked great on p8 for quite awhile. Everything eventually dies ... whirlwind is fun and pretty effective.

Now, refitted with a lucky drop I had a long time ago, an eth hone sundan with 2 shaels and an amn and that works pretty good too. Still on p8 in NM.

Next stop will be grief/lawbringer or grief/grief. I'm not too worried about range ... the usual YT content guys say that it's the shiznit.

so, 2.4.3 has been good because it prompted me to play a barb at this time. Plus the cube id thing is QoL for sure.

Just wished they did a loot filter. Was running LK for more charms, gems, runes and sheesh ...

 

[DarkMaster]

Update: Whirlwind breakpoints for all single-wielding (1H and 2H) weapons

The post is updated to reflect latest known info. Whirlwind speed for barbarian is split into 2 categories - all 2-handed weapons except swords (slow); and all 1-handed weapons + 2-handed swords (fast). Since 2.4.3, all non-weapon gear, skills with attack speed and slow effects affect...

us.forums.blizzard.com

^ Someone did some research on the new breakpoints for 1H + 2H swords and all other 2H weapons, no info on duel-wielding as of yet though.

Whirlwind is being adjusted · Issue #7 · ChthonVII/d2r_24ptr2_wereform_calculator

While it's not exactly relevant to your calculator (and you may not be working on it anymore), anyone who saw our previous work may return here to learn about how it works, so I'll continue using t...

github.com

^ Here's another thread with much more technical explanations of the new IAS logic (way over my head). It says wereform but it links to another section regarding the 2.4.3 whirlwind changes.

From what I've come to understand the patch can be considered a buff to early game WW and overall probably a nerf to late game WW now that it can be slowed by Decrepify and Holy Freeze (you can use Fanaticism or Frenzy to counter the slow but that forces you to use Faith or Beast, and if you use a 2H then Frenzy will be rather clunky to swap from), and for the slower 2H weapons it can be very hard to reach the higher breakpoints.

Having said that though, I'm still excited at the new weapon possibilities. I was personally thinking of an eth Death colossus sword since it benefits from the faster 2H sword breakpoints (it uses the 1H breakpoints regardless of how many hands are used to wield it), decent damage, fairly cheap, and awesome style points.

Also from my understanding the meta will still be dual Grief (or rather now it will be for anyone that abused the broken offhand glitch) especially now that the 4th frame hitcheck uses both weapons now. Gonna have huge implications for both PvM and especially PvP.

 

[snickersnack]

From what I've come to understand the patch can be considered a buff to early game WW and overall probably a nerf to late game WW now that it can be slowed by Decrepify and Holy Freeze (you can use Fanaticism or Frenzy to counter the slow but that forces you to use Faith or Beast, and if you use a 2H then Frenzy will be rather clunky to swap from), and for the slower 2H weapons it can be very hard to reach the higher breakpoints.

Increasingly, it seems like the current devs don't understand the game very well (e.g. werewolf ias). OTOH, maybe the game mechanics are just that complicated and they don't do enough testing before rolling out changes.

Also, I thought that freeze/chill always did affect WW speed? Or is only the move speed and not the attack frames that were affected? I intentionally don't have CBF on my trav barb in 1.14d partly because I want to WW slowly....maybe that answers my question.

 

[Triple Helix]

Also, I thought that freeze/chill always did affect WW speed? Or is only the move speed and not the attack frames that were affected? I intentionally don't have CBF on my trav barb in 1.14d partly because I want to WW slowly....maybe that answers my question.

It affected move speed only IIRC, so you would get more hits from staying on target longer. I don't use CBF on my WW barb either for the same reason.

 

[krischan]

That has been fixed in the patch 2.4.2. Since then you can use /nopickup and still auto pickup gold.

Wow, I didn't notice that. What's worse, sometimes I thuought "hmm, perhaps I should try if it's working", but then "nah, probably not worth bothering about". Doh!

^ Someone did some research on the new breakpoints for 1H + 2H swords and all other 2H weapons, no info on duel-wielding as of yet though.

(...)

Thanks!

 

[DarkMaster]

Increasingly, it seems like the current devs don't understand the game very well (e.g. werewolf ias). OTOH, maybe the game mechanics are just that complicated and they don't do enough testing before rolling out changes.

Also, I thought that freeze/chill always did affect WW speed? Or is only the move speed and not the attack frames that were affected? I intentionally don't have CBF on my trav barb in 1.14d partly because I want to WW slowly....maybe that answers my question.

I think they do understand the IAS changes actually, see this VoD from Rob Gallerani (design director of D2R):

1 hour, 17 minutes, 18 seconds if the timestamp didn't work. Watch from 1:17 to 1:20 or so. I'd actually recommend watching the whole thing, it was a pretty cool look into the design and inner workings behind D2R.

They knew the werebear's attack speed was nerfed, and they wanted it that way because they think that was the intent of the original D2 developers that werewolves are the fast, nimble attackers while werebears are the slower, stronger, tanky unstoppable force.

As for the WW speed, I wasn't very clear with that. Prior to 2.4.3 only WW movement speed could be slowed, the attack speed was always constant (i.e. unslowable) and only changed based on your weapon IAS.

Wow, I didn't notice that. What's worse, sometimes I thuought "hmm, perhaps I should try if it's working", but then "nah, probably not worth bothering about". Doh!


Thanks!

No problem, I didn't do any of the research but I thought I'd share it here to help disseminate the info.

Speaking of which, there's an IAS calculator that was updated and finalized today for the 2.4.3 whirlwind IAS changes. Check it out!
https://warren1001.github.io/IAS_Calculator/

 

[snickersnack]

They knew the werebear's attack speed was nerfed, and they wanted it that way because they think that was the intent of the original D2 developers that werewolves are the fast, nimble attackers while werebears are the slower, stronger, tanky unstoppable force.

I didn't mention the werebear's speed being nerfed. I was thinking about how they rolled out a change for the wereforms and then changed it again after people complained that they nerfed the werewolf. At least that's what I recall. Now that they seem to have maybe nerfed whirlwind.... I think my point stands. I could be wrong, though.

Edit: based on the new ias calc you linked, if I forward my WWsin to D2R, I'll need 13 more ias from gear to reach the last bp. I haven't checked how barbs are affected, but that seems like a nerf to me. Then again, maybe they wanted to nerf WW. I haven't worked out how the new hit checks affect the overall DPS. Maybe it's the same or even buffed slightly with these changes.

 

[DarkMaster]

I didn't mention the werebear's speed being nerfed. I was thinking about how they rolled out a change for the wereforms and then changed it again after people complained that they nerfed the werewolf. At least that's what I recall. Now that they seem to have maybe nerfed whirlwind.... I think my point stands. I could be wrong, though.

Edit: based on the new ias calc you linked, if I forward my WWsin to D2R, I'll need 13 more ias from gear to reach the last bp. I haven't checked how barbs are affected, but that seems like a nerf to me. Then again, maybe they wanted to nerf WW. I haven't worked out how the new hit checks affect the overall DPS. Maybe it's the same or even buffed slightly with these changes.

I know you didn't mention the werebear, I just meant that these nerfs probably aren't out of negligence or lack of understanding about IAS mechanics but deliberate design changes. In that same interview Rob mentioned that if any change receives very heavy negative feedback then they'd revert it, or something to that degree. I'm too lazy to search for the timestamp though.

I think overall the changes are a mixed bag, for 1H weapons + 2H swords it can be considered a buff in some ways since slower weapons can now reach decent IAS breakpoints (Death berserker axe/colossus sword, Schaefer's Hammer, etc.) and the 4th frame hitcheck now hits with both weapons but also a nerf since WW attack speed can now be slowed by Decrep/Holy Freeze and a very slight Enhanced Damage nerf at level 25+ WW and higher (though the additional attack rating probably outweighs the lost damage).

2H weapons on the other hand got the short end of the stick, the IAS requirements to reach 5 frame WW for 20/10 WSM weapons is 174/125 IAS respectively which requires massive gear sacrifices and/or using a Faith merc. Even weapons that hit 4 frame WW prior to 2.4.3, let's say an EBotD Great Poleaxe, now only hits 6 frame WW and requires an additional 29 IAS from gear to hit the 5 frame WW breakpoint, speaking of which the 4 frame WW breakpoint is no longer attainable for 2H weapons which is a sizable nerf.

I like the idea behind the WW IAS change, but they need to greatly reduce the IAS needed for the 2H weapon breakpoints because they're currently just way too punishing especially if you get Decreped/Holy Freezed.