Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

[stephan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

But you're closing the option out of the iron golem from the act 2 merc side as well as I mostly play nonladder and I do a lot of trist runs so having the golem die isn't fun. I use medi golem / pride golems. Its da bomb.

I'm not sure if I understood the comment. What am I closing out?

 

[ISawYouTry]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Your defense doesnt bring in the fact the I get an iron golem which i can use too. I'm not saying the build is bad, i have actually spent the last half an hour getting all th gear to try it, but with a pride iron golem and infinity on your merc you should see significant damage in relation to a infin golem and faith merc

 

[NumtyDoo]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

I'm not for sure what ISawYouTry is trying to say but maybe this will help. Stephan didn't put it in the calculation because both builds can use infinity so both get the benefit of it, so it kind of cansels out, no need to put it in the equation.

Skellies have quite good CtH against regular mobs, the only time you will notice the increased CtH is against bosses. Infinity for sure helps with mages and CE, but I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

I think what ISawYouTry is saying is that with the standard setup that everyone uses you get more ED than this special build, might/conv/fana and might/conv/fana/conc will do more damage than fana/conv. I think that Stephan was backing that up noy arguing it. I think Stephans argument was the damage between a might merc's might aura and lvl 15 fana comes out barely noticeable and that is before the lvl 9 fana from beast.

I hope that answers your question/statement, because I am not sure what you were saying.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

My numbers included a level 18 might for the non-Fana setup.

level 18 might (level 87 merc), level 40 RS/RM = 10830 DPS
level 15 fana, level 40 RS/RM = 11284 DPS.

Oh, I was comparing straight off lvl 9 beast and lvl 15 faith.

 

[ISawYouTry]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Ya, something like that. The usual build is built to max out damage for your skeletons, which plays slower because you yourself are less survivable.

This build loses some of that but utilizes the max FcR and a good fhr
Which for the most part makes it better for all around play. The max damage is imo better if you are doing ubers, but aside from clone/trist hunting this seems to be a good build .

 

[stephan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Your defense doesnt bring in the fact the I get an iron golem which i can use too. I'm not saying the build is bad, i have actually spent the last half an hour getting all th gear to try it, but with a pride iron golem and infinity on your merc you should see significant damage in relation to a infin golem and faith merc

I'm advocating for the act 2 merc as well, so I'm not sure if we are in disagreement. :smiley:

 

[ISawYouTry]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Also the "do not put point into dim vision, atract, confuse on final build" is only partly right, you should always have 1 point dim vision. It helps in so many situations and basically nutures anything outside of your screen.

 

[mephistophilis]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

My proclamation:

1) The Summoner as it was built before focused on damage potential when it really didn't need to. The summoner is the strongest character in the game. We don't need to add 3 damage enhancing auras (conc, might, fanat) and conviction to it to be effective. We need a balance between playability and damage. This is precisely the reason why people play sorcs and hammerdins over Summoners. The sorcs and dins don't have more damage (in most cases a summoner is more effective) they just have more playability features.

WE want the summoner to be the premier character. My focus was on ENOUGH damage and Maxed out playability features.

So you guys dont like the site that gets you massive stuff dirt cheap and thats fine, I think you should because you would be a lot more liberal in your play since you could get better gear cheap and have more fun.

On that note, I also play classic and once a month my buddies and I start a new character to run through the whole game without x-fering anything. What you find is what you use. So I still have that fun, but to do that every day gets extremely boring (especially when you are playing against kids who just dropped $150 on their new Java-Zon and come to rub it in).

To the kid who said I stole his name: First of all, nice spelling. Good work there. Second Read Marlowe's Dr Faustus for reasoning. And by the way its also my B-Net account that I've had for 4 years. So lets not go there.

Everyone else: I am sorry I put you on the offensive. This was my first post on this site and I am use to JSP People who absolutely LOVE my guides (after trying it out of course. that is one thing I will give them over you guys) so I was cocky in my own right from past experience with peoples critique.

To complement you, your arguments are more thought out and a better debate, but unfortunately none of you have really tried it out yet and that makes me sad.

And I don't get how saying hero editor will get me kicked off much less do I care. Hero editor is an excellent way to try out a character before you build it on closed realms. It's the single greatest tool for trying new things.

So I stand by my build 100% with absolutely NO alterations whatsoever. At this point The only things I will respond to are posts of people who try it out (via real bnet or hero editor) because every hypothetical argument has been made and I promise you all you will change your mind when you build the character.

The only variation I would deem viable is Switching out Carin for Hoto and Magefists for Frostburn Gloves. Even then you will need mana potions but most people here don't mind that it seems. I hate using potions so I don't use this setup.


Thanks for all your feedback whether negative or positive. A special thanks to the few people who considered this and may have attempted it before commenting--those are the people who deserve the most props because they at least could see past my 'arrogance' and listened to what I have to say.

I was not trying to disrespect anyone. All I was doing was posting something you all needed. A fresh perspective on an old character. All your summoner guides stickied are slower by playability and focus on maximized (unnecessary) damage.

Every summoner can uber. Someone said you need max damage for this. I say you don't. With 15 Skeletons. 10 Mages, and 22 Udars I have cleared ubers in under 2 minutes. I am not appealing to 10% of the game over 90%. I am appealing to 98% of the game over 2% (Baal and Diablo die faster ONLY when I don't have udars--if I do then I kill as fast as A2 Merc).

I have had 1 iggy poof on my in all my years of D2. It doesnt happen as you are all saying it does. I have never had one mysteriously Poof this ladder. Pay attention and he wont die. Its not that big of a deal. And its E-Items for god sake. Who cares. Its not like I am asking you to spend 10 bucks if he dies. Just go on jsp and get em cheap.

So please take this as an apology, and at the same time a wake up call. I've admitted I was wrong in my approach but my principles stand. My build is better on a playability level. I was a big man, now you be one and try it before you attack it anymore.

 

[Mad Mantis]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

So you guys dont like the site that gets you massive stuff dirt cheap and thats fine.

Actually it's Da Rules, specifically rule 5; Thou Shalt Not Pimp or aid the Pimping of hacks, Cheats or Farming.

And I don't get how saying hero editor will get me kicked off much less do I care.

Again I refer to Da Rules, specifically rule 5; Thou Shalt Not Pimp or aid the Pimping of hacks, Cheats or Farming.

It is great that you want to spend time in discussion over at this site, but remember the rules.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Well, anyone wants to try it out? I don't have too much wealth on ladder, and I certainly do not want to make an infinity iron golem on NL, even though I can afford one. (how many HR's are infinity in NL? 10? 20?) Unless, of course, somebody wants to hand me one for free......

 

[JayhawkFan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

To complement you, your arguments are more thought out and a better debate, but unfortunately none of you have really tried it out yet and that makes me sad.

So please take this as an apology, and at the same time a wake up call. I've admitted I was wrong in my approach but my principles stand. My build is better on a playability level. I was a big man, now you be one and try it before you attack it anymore.

Maybe some people on this forum havent tried YOUR summoner but trust me, a lot of the players who post here have played a necro that uses CE and summons. They usually dont vary that much unless you have or dont have an enigma. To say your's is best is an opinion. An opinion that apparently only you have about your guide.

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

To the kid who said I stole his name: First of all, nice spelling. Good work there. Second Read Marlowe's Dr Faustus for reasoning. And by the way its also my B-Net account that I've had for 4 years. So lets not go there.

lolz.

the correct spelling is actually Mephistopheles, a ye-olde worlde term for the devil. i substituted in the Z's because b.net won't let you create a character with "mephisto" somewhere in the name.

and i have read Dr Faustus, although i admit it's been about 15 years since i did so.

I was not trying to disrespect anyone.

calling me "kid" is highly disrespectful and overall keeps with the tone of absolute superiority you seem to have effected. just FYI: i'm most likely older than you are, so keep you base and pathetic insults to yourself.

again: get your own screen name please. i have a bit of a reputation around these parts as a legit player (by which i mean the Barons Bazaar definition of legit, not the jsp definition). i certainly don't want to be blamed for/associated with for this kinds of dupe-whore guides.

you appear incapable of accepting criticism, perhaps you are too used to the sycophancy on your average jsp member to be able to tolerate the kind of well thought-out shredding that 99% of guides posted on these forums invariably get subjected to.

 

[mephistophilis]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

1) the proper spelling depends on the version of the book you read.

2) Your shredding has no grounds because the basis of your criticism is comparing this build to one that caters to a completely different style of play.

First thing you have to do is accept that.

And your name is awful with the z's. I really dont care what you have to say. Untill someone tries this and gives feedback that warrants proper debate, you wont see me on this ****ty forum again. You guys have no imaginations.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Untill someone tries this and gives feedback that warrants proper debate, you wont see me on this ****ty forum again. You guys have no imaginations.

You do not have to try a build to give a proper debate. I mean, if I claim that a barb with dual 6x zod crystal sword, 4 zod armor, 3 zod helm is the best thing in the world......, would you believe it? I suppose you will call me crazy for even suggesting such a thing. Certainly, you are not going to try it, right? So, don't use people not trying your build as your sole defense.

By the way, imagination merely suggests a method. Rigorous proof (and or scientific testing, depending on your field) irons it out and prove it works.

 

[mephistophilis]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

You do not have to try a build to give a proper debate. I mean, if I claim that a barb with dual 6x zod crystal sword, 4 zod armor, 3 zod helm is the best thing in the world......, would you believe it? I suppose you will call me crazy for even suggesting such a thing. So, don't use people not trying your build as your defense, especially when it's your sole defense.

By the way, imagination merely suggests a method. Rigorous proof (and or scientific testing, depending on your field) irons it out and prove it works.

How are you supposed to test it if you don't try it.

Theoretical defenses only go so far when it comes to a video game.

Sure the math says A pride golem with an insight might merc and beast on your person does more damage.

Again I go back to saying, this is a build that does ENOUGH damage to be very effective and it adds another element that makes the build better than its predecessors-- speed and character involvement.


Try it is my only defense because thats all it takes.

You guys can do all the calculations you want in your hypothetical runs. Ill just stick to trying it in the game. But I forgot, you are all too cheap to sacrifice an infinity and too whipped by bnet to download hero editor.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

You guys can do all the calculations you want in your hypothetical runs. Ill just stick to trying it in the game. But I forgot, you are all too cheap to sacrifice an infinity and too whipped by bnet to download hero editor.

Well, you can give me an infinity that I can golem on west NL......, I have all the other pieces except for skillers (which I can trade for).

Anyways, if you haven't realized, there are 2 setups that you need to "defend" against (to show why it's superior).
1) Pure damage setup, which you claim is unnecessary. I will take your word on that.
2) Lamerdin based setup, with beast on switch and AoKL prebuff, and not worry so much about the CtA (or heck even CtA on switch if you think the damage is enough, as might merc's damage increase isn't really worse than the faith). Wizzy +2x SoJ would give enough mana, and it's only 1 less skeleton than HotO (or even use HotO if you already have enough mana). Of course, you can still use faith merc if you fear IM. This is actually what I am interested in.

By the way, since a program is a logical construct, theoretical defense is the ultimate defense, if all elements of it can be accounted for. :wink3:

 

[mephistophilis]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

By the way, since a program is a logical construct, theoretical defense is the ultimate defense, if all elements of it can be accounted for. :wink3:

I use to agree. But what are you proving by doing a theoretical test?

Exactly what we already know.

A2 merc set up does more damage.

That does NOT mean game play will be better.

If you are trying to prove the best game play you need not focus on overkill of damage but mobility, vitality, energy consumption, and damage as a combination rather than a single element that is more valuable than any other.

That was the system I was using and the reason I came up with this gear set. It beat out hoto, wizzy and every other combination as the most efficient match up of the above outlined criteria.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

That was the system I was using and the reason I came up with this gear set. It beat out hoto, wizzy and every other combination as the most efficient match up of the above outlined criteria.

The problem is you merely claimed it. You never clearly explained it. For example, a necro circlet w/ 10+ FCR, 2 skills, and 2x shael can also easily hit your FCR and FHR breakpoints, and in the end has more resist to boot. Why would this circlet not beat your setup, be as detailed as possible.

 

[mephistophilis]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

The problem is you merely claimed it. You never clearly explained it. For example, a necro circlet w/ 10+ FCR, 2 skills, and 2x shael can also easily hit your FCR and FHR breakpoints, and in the end has more resist to boot. Why would this circlet not beat your setup, be as detailed as possible.

For one thing I put several choices in here to balance the price to that of a a2 merc rocker. A circlet is a lot more expensive than a shako.

If you use the 2/20 circ it will also need mana (remember we are trying to get a lot of mana) Yes both shako and Carin do not count towards the Bo able mana but you also need to consider that if you take the +% from hoto with no mana on your circlet you are going to come up much shorter in the mana department than the 250 shako/carin offer.

So then you substitute Carin for Hoto (another major expense) and You gain skill and fcr. Now you can wear Maras and get more resistance. You could also take away a fcr ring and wear soj (another expense). then you lose strength from your fcr ring (again a good circ will have that but your price went up again).

So now you have a very limited base mana and you add an soj and +15% mana from hoto and +20% from soj. You also might have added about 60 mana on your circlet and 20 mana from soj. Now you have 80 mana thats bo'able +35% of that so call that even 170 (to be generous) and you STILL lose more mana than the other way and you just spent a fortune on a gg circlet, hoto, maras and an soj.

Obviously if you use Insight golem this isnt an issue but when you have no real mana booster like meditation, you lose mana a lot faster if you dont have it piled on. Im not saying hoto/circ/maras/soj don't work. Im just saying my way optimizes every possible scenario.

Also, if you get a rare circlet, you will only be able to shael it once (unless you have the god of all circlets and you have a good rare 2 os circlet). That means you will need to sacrifice 2 res all scs for fhr scs. Obviously that isnt as much of an issue since you gain res elsewhere.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

You forgot 3 fixes.
1) mana charms (you have more free space because of the setup, you need less resist)
2) mana pots
3) hard points in energy