Lindon - Twinked SC Hammerdin on a Mission

Well I feel like hijacking the thread... so I'll move my questions under my thread.
Advice request!

Well after some tweaks, I only managed to get to 9k at 47.4s per run.
Tweaks were:
- changed some charms to get in two skillers (one offensive and my new plain combat one, so best damage would be by hit replacing my two offensive by two combats, that I don't have),
- replaced the Dwarf Star by a BKWB, bringing damage to the 10k range,
- and using now much more the teleport technique with Inventory or LCS opened.

However, even if I grabbed +1k xp/s and 11s per run (on 50 runs each for comparison), I don't see how to get to the 14k/s mark (I'd be plenty satisfied with 12k/s to be honest).

Is the strategy requiring full pack kills, or to focus on bosses only? I'd say I am leaving around 2.5 minions per run per boss. For now I just go kill seal bosses and eventual pack really close.

I don't even pick purples apart after a Convicted Infector, due to the need to heal the merc, Rising Sun is really safe. Only picks are SC/GC/jewels and rare rings/amulets, Ko+ runes and the eventual grailer, so it is not that much - I would take more HR everyday, but well...a Gul lastly, still half a Vex.

I have no shrine to get a chance at xp, but giving the curses not sure that it is something before Diablo runs.

So well, I'd take any input to improve, for a 30% to 50% improvement I must have missed something!
 
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doesn't minions give the same xp as the boss?
Yes, but if I got it right as they don't have the same lvl, they shouldn't be as valuable - that's why I am wondering that - are they xp bonus or really needed for the strategy to work.
 
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@Babyhell it's ok, I don't mind you asking questions here, or in your own thread. No worries either way. I'm quite confused though. You're lvl 94 doing 47.5s p8 2 seal runs and are only getting 9k exp/s? I think it should be more than that. 47.5s is a fine 2 seal runtime. Idk might make sense if you're ONLY killing the seal bosses and leave 2-3 minions each times (meaning not even accidentally killing other stuff that gets mixed in with the seal bosses). I recommend just uploading a video of 10 minutes of focused funning. And show exp at beginning and end.

And minions are the same mlvl as bosses. Exp'ing is all about killing high psetting minions effiiciently. That being said leaving one or two alive is usually a fine idea since I find staying to kill every single one ends up slowing down the overall pace. Good luck!
 
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@Babyhell sounds good, I'll look forward to it. I forgot to add that you are correct about shrines. Don't even look at them while you're doing 2 seal runs. Takes all of 0.5s for them to be cursed away.
 
Update 3
Hours in: 45
Level: 97.02
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Still no deaths! And got lvl 97 at 43:40!
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Defiance vs Holy Freeze Merc
Through 96.8, I was just cranking out the runs with the same gear and setup, but with 3ish hours left in lvl 96, I wanted to test if I thought defiance or holy freeze merc was better. I'd used defiance through the whole journey so far.

So first some theory. I ran some chance to be hit calcs to see the influence of defiance, and its worth about 8% DR when active, which of course is nice. However, holy freeze is worth 40ish% DR if active. So that's obviously a lot more. However, the potential downsides with HF that I see are:
  1. potentially slowing down killing in general from slower monster movement speed
  2. the color making it harder to identify boss packs
  3. the fact that it takes a second to chill a pack, whereas defiance is always working, once the merc has activated it, so less safety in that event
So for point number one, I just didn't think this would actually happen. It makes sense for a run where you're trying to kill the whole screen (so basically cows). But when you're clearing a pack whose group starts out about as big as your hammer area anyways, I just didn't see this making a difference. However, I figured why not just test it. That will give me an idea of how good each merc aura feels as well.

For number 2, I just don't think is a big deal for p8 CS exp. I would never run HF on an mf character where quickly identifying boss packs is key. But on this run, you know where the two most important ones will be always, missing a pack here or there doesn't affect exp/hr much at all, and you have time to mouse over adjacent packs while you're spamming hammers on the seal bosses. But once again, just testing should show a decrease in exp/hr if there is one.

As for number three, this isn't really tested when just running each for a while. So it's more like an extreme limit-state risk analysis. So it's like what are the chances that I make a horrible tele into a dangerous pack (likely de seis's back after lvl 97), that they kill me before they are chilled from HF, and that defiance would have saved me. I think that's entirely possible, but just too unlikely to consider, and plus holy freeze also helps pin down extra fast de seis.

Anyways those were my thoughts, now time to just test it. I rerolled my good 2 seal map in order to hire a HF merc. Then just so happens the first map after returning to hell as even better than my previous one lol. Anyways I ran this holy freeze merc for an hour and a half and got 4320 xp/s. Then I hired a defiance merc from hell difficulty to run for an hour and a half on the same map for appropriate comparison. For those defiance merc runs, I got 4149 xp/s.

These results are well within the bounds of just regular variability, but for what it's worth, I actually do think the holy freeze merc sped up killing a bit. I think maybe the enemies stay in one spot getting put in fhr from your hammers longer. And the runs were generally more comfy, which can ofc speed them up a bit.

So final conclusion is that hdin is OP and is great with either one, but I now say that, in my opinion, HF merc is the best choice.

Finds
Runes: gul, pul, mal, mal, um, ohm, ist
Noteable s/u: gris shield #6, eth guardian angel, wisp projector #3 (10/12 :()
(the number next to item is the number I've found across all characters)
Skillers: 7 (captain, expert, fungal, hexing, mentalist, preserver, shogu)
7mfscs: 2 (one with 2 mana)

Still none of the sur-jah runes I'm hoping for, put this stint at least really picked it up on the rate of the mid runes drops, so that was nice!

Also found my best ebug opportunity for exile base I've found yet, to disappointing results (will be in the screenshots)

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Thoughts for 97-98
So first thing I did after getting lvl 97 was do like 50 runs of my good ole 2-seal runs on that nice map. This just for comparison data for when I test runs including de seis and diablo. The result of that was 6.2 million exp/hr, which I was very pumped about. That's a projected 43 hours for lvl 97-98. On my untwinked sorc, my top end exp was under 5 million, and with the two deaths I had with her, the lvl took me 65 hours 0_0. So this is looking MUCH better.

However, I am assuming that I will be running all 3 seals and diablo, since it's just been pretty consistent that it's been better for the last few 99er hdins by others on the SPF. So that will make de seis the most dangerous threat by far in my opinion. Also, I think some more plus skills will probably help more for telestomping him and for killing diablo. So I think I want to run the maras hotspur setup. Slightly less life than the other two setups I tested, but not much less, and the most +skills of the setups I tested. And I thought the 90 fire res felt substantially better than the 80 fire res plus dwarf star of the wateralk maras setup while killing infector. We'll see if I miss rising sun too much, but I respec'd to that setup.

Additionally, for the de seis telestomp, I definitely want the merc to wear fortitude to hit de seis harder. And I also want him to wear vamp gaze, since I've found in the past that he dies too often to de seis's minions otherwise, even as I babysit him a bit. Plus andy's is the other obvious options, and I don't love the -fire res on it for his durability vs infector. So the coh + steelshade merc is likely in the past, and i'll mis his absurd durability when venom lords are around. Also, using a might merc is perhaps a good idea for this for even more dmg on the de seis telestomp, but I won't be doing that. I want as much safety advantage from the merc as I can get, and plus the slowdown for catching extra fast de seis is at least worth something in terms of speed.

And I think I'll do vizier seal first since now with no rising sun, I'd say he's the least dangerous boss, so that will make sure HF is procd by the time I fight infector which should help a little bit, just from less melee dmg, as well as when they attack or move it will longer periods between inferno casts.

New Map
So now that I had tested the two seal runs and respec'd to the new maras setup, I needed to roll a map for 97-98. And this map rolling time IS of course going on my overall timer. So I didn't want to spend an absurd amount of time on it. Trying to capture most all the time involved on the character. I wanted at least 3 shrines in rof/cs, ofc a y-shaped vizier layout, and also want a right-corner-seal de seis layout. I VASTLY prefer that orientation for de seis's wing since the spacing just always seems to be much more consistent and safe. I consider a t-shape infector layout to be a slight benefit, but not mandatory at all when looking for a map with this much stuff. Anyways my approach for rolling a map was like this:
  • reroll till i get a shrine next to the rof wp (tele backwards once to check)
  • then check to see if its y-vizier layout
  • then check for a right-corner-seal de seis layout
  • if all three of those are yes, then tele back though looking for more shrines, and if there are at least 3 shrines total, keep the map
This took around 25 minutes to get a keeper. It's not as good as it could be since it two tele's backward to check the first shrine, which I don't like, and there are exactly 3 shrines total (was hoping to luck into 4 total). But I think it will do, and I don't want to waste too much time rolling maps. I checked the a1 waypoints as well, and there are 3 shrines close to the cold plains waypoint. So anyways I think its a decent keeper, but if anyone who's done this type of running before (@ffs @PhineasB @Bewitch) and has any advice on other stuff to look for, and whether or not I should be content with this map, definitely let me know.

So after hitting 97, the 2 seal test runs, the respec'ing, and the map rolling took me almost to the 45 hour mark. So I did a couple of other practice runs and that brings us to here. Next update I expect to have a lot of comparison data for different running strategies for xp in lvl 97-98. Like I said, I'm already pumped at sub 45 hours projected from those 2seal test runs, so no matter what happens, should be great. I'm feeling very motivated on this character and want to make good progress, so I might just keep pushing hard on him till 98 before taking a break and playing other characters, but we'll see how it goes. Hope everyone is well, cheers :coffee:!
 
Wow, great progress @Luhkoh (y)

For what it's worth, I would recommend sticking with your map, especially because it checks the layout box and has 2+ shrines. Full disclosure though, I am not a fan of rerolling maps. My sense is that you have at least as much odds of spending time rolling maps as gaining speed from an improvement based on your description of this one, or at least that's I generally evaluate things. Also, as we discussed separately, I don't like the A1 shrine checking, so that isn't as important for me in evaluating a map.

Good luck on the next stretch!
 
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@PhineasB Thanks! And thanks for the input! So far haven't been able to see a big boost in xp/hr from the shrines, whether from only checking the 3 in rof/cs or from checking them and the 3 in cold plains. Probably need a good bit more practice on the new type of run.
 
Update 4
Hours in: 60
Level: 97.38
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Still zero deaths, but a couple of close calls this time. I think 97 is the most dangerous lvl per hour of gameplay for me, but we'll see how 98 goes of course :D.

Finds
Runes: ohm, Lo, mal, pul
Noteable s/u: veil of steel, stone of jordan, hotspur, pluckeye
Skillers: 5 (burning, fanatic, fungal, spiritual, trainers)
7mfscs: 1

Am still praying to RNGesus for some jah runes and stormlash. But at least we upped the highest rune found to a Lo.

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Lvl 97 exp
Level 97 is the most interesting level in my opinion, from a theorycrafting point of view. When both mlvl 88 minions and the high level superuniques (nihla, diablo, baal) both can be a heavy contributor to exp/hr, the options expand and the analysis is interesting. So I wanted to test several running methods. Here is a summary of what I did/tested for this 15 hour stint.
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First, as I mentioned in the previous post, I did about a half hour of 2 seal runs on my previous map at my regular pace and got 6.2m. Then I rerolled my map for that one previously mentioned, with 3 shrines in rof/cs and 3 in cold plains. I then tried running p8/p7 with no shrines, just for a benchmark of data, and then p8/p7 just checking the three a4 shrines. Although the latter should definitely be better, I ran a bit slower during its test, and everything stayed around 6.2-6.3m.

Also at this time, I calc'd the number of hammers it takes to kill diablo on p8 vs p7. For my setup I calced it takes 3 more hammers for a p8 kill (which takes 1.2s to cast). And since I think I waste at least a half second each time I change psettings, I just decided to leave the whole run on p8. Then next ofc, I tested checking all 6 shrines, and slowed my runs even further, so got just under 6.2m. Next, I wanted to test a method where you run like this: check the 3 rof/cs shrines, and if none are exp, then just do a 2 seal run. If one is an exp shrine, do a full run. This one stood out a bit and gave me just over 6.5m.

So while I'm totally fine with 6.2m-6.5m exp/hr for this level, I had been thinking that much more was possible, from seeing @ffs 's lvl 97 numbers with his untwinked hdin here. I believe his testing sessions were rather short, so probably a good bit of variation from a small sample size, but even considering that, he was definitely getting much better exp than me (almost 7m on his full runs). So I chatted with him a bit, and while he had much good advice, my main takeaway was just that I wasn't pushing myself as hard as I could be on runtimes.

During this same time, I messaged enpherno, a non-FAM twitch streamer, about lvl 97 exp'ing. He had gotten 7.3m over an hour with a twinked blizz sorc doing two seal runs. His advice was, during two seal runs, to pay less attention to extra bosspacks and just rush the seal bosses for the most part. Now I thought I had tested this strategy back at like lvl 94, and found it to be about the same as hitting extra bosses, and we have seen several other people on the forum in the past test it and say adding in a few extra boss packs was better. But I was like whatever lets try it. I buckled down and was running as fast as I could, picking up very little, and concentrating hard. Was pretty amazed seeing those sub 40s runs, and even more so, when at the end of the hour I hit just under 7.4m exp/hr 0_0.

Wow. Thats the most exp I've heard of anyone getting at 97, so needless to say I was verrry happy. It also called into question if more people should test rushing just the seal bosses and pushing runtimes, at least for me. Because this was head and shoulders better than any other result I've gotten. But I will say, I knew I needed to test if this was replicable, and in a run stint that will be included in the next update post, I tried this strategy again, and was only able to get just under 6.9m. So still an excellent result, and MUCH more competitive with full runs than I think has been shown on the forum so far, but not quite the insane 7.4 result. So keep that in mind as I discuss the next run type.

Next, still inspired by my discussion with ffs, I played an hour with one goal: get sub 90s full runs with checking all 6 shrines. Again this was me playing very hard. Picked up very little, probably missed a few gem shrines, etc. Also had my worst NDE so far, in a crowded de seis pack ofc. Not sure what the hp got down to but that hp bulb looked empty. Very scary times pushing speed against de seis... But it was a success! And gave me my second result that was greater than 7m, at 7.15m. I felt very good about this result and, although it didn't quite match up to the crazy 2 seal hour I had, it's very competitive. And plus, I mentioned that my second attempt at the 2 seal runs shows that maybe the 7.4 was a bit of a fluke. We'll see with further testing. But either way, in my book, 7m is a nice result to be excited about.

Anyways I preferred doing the full runs at this point, both for just something different from the 2 seal runs I'd done till 97, but also for more chances of diablo dropping stormlash in this project (no unique scourges at all so far). So after all this testing, I decided to chill out, and do slower, safer, full runs, and avg'd 6.35m exp/hr for the rest of this stint doing that.

Runs Video
Here is a video of the full cs runs. I'm sure I will get faster with more practice, but wanted to show what they look like.

Next update I plan to retest most of these methods and see if my results are replicable, as well as test that "if no shrine, 2 seal run" method more. We'll see how it goes. Either way very pleased my progress and VERY pleased with my best 1hour of exp results. Hope everyone is doing well. Cheers :coffee:.
 
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As previously mentioned, very nice stuff.

Now I thought I had tested this strategy back at like lvl 94, and found it to be about the same as hitting extra bosses, and we have seen several other people on the forum in the past test it and say adding in a few extra boss packs was better.
Wasn't quite sure what you meant by "hitting extra bosses". I think it's not worth stopping for extra packs unless you're fighting a seal boss at the same time. What I (and probably others you refer to) mean by this is to have extra boss packs together with seal packs, so that they just add free XP without increasing run times in comparison to just killing the 2 seal packs. It can be fine tuned a bit more if the map allows, in relation to where they tend to spawn exactly: At Infector seal, it doesn't matter if the pack is not precisely clumped together with Infector because Infector pack will run towards you. So even if the pack is a little bit away from Infector, you can teleport to the extra pack and start throwing hammers, killing both packs simultaneously as Infector dudes run into the hammers. They die pretty much at the same rate as if you were teleporting into the Infector pack directly. For Vizier it's a little different, because these guys don't run towards you. So there you always teleport right into the Vizier pack. But ideally they spawn on top of a pack that is already in that location. So on that side an extra boss pack spawning "nearby" is not quite ideal, whereas on Infector side that's all you need to get a little extra XP/h. I did see maps where Vizier frequently spawned right with another pack though. Anyway, something like that with extra packs on those locations is what an ideal 2 seal maps would look like in my book.

That's why I asked in our PMs how many boss packs you get right at the seals. But it sounds like you don't get any extra packs? For 97-98 in my case 2 seal runs weren't as good as P8/P7 Diablo runs, so that I concluded I'd need a godly 2 seal map as described above for this to be better.

The XP shrine approach as to whether or not to go for a full run is interesting, too. Never tried this, but sounds very reasonable.
 
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@ffs thanks! And fair enough. Yeah I think I've seen people meaning different things when they say "hit extra bosses or not". Or maybe it's just me who thought so. So now I'm thinking it's definitely best to not stop for any bosses whom you cant dmg simultaneously with dmging a seal pack. I might be late to that conclusion, but I think it's sound. And I'm very impressed with how competitive just blitzing the seal bosses alone stacks up when you get your runtimes low enough. As to my occurrence of simultaneously killable bosses at the seals, I definitely get a few, but not many at all. Though ofc now I'm thinking I must have had more than I realized for that 7.4m stint, and am guessing my latest 6.9ish attempt is more indicative of what rushing the seals on a completely average/random chaos map (with the correct wing shapes ofc) will yield. I definitely wasn't getting or killing many extra things in that (6.9) attempt, but the runtimes were sooo fast. Some were like 32-33s.

And I just finished testing an hour of hard running of that "full run if xp shrine, else 2 seal" and got just barely over 7m. I think it can definitely be competitive and would be even better with a 4th shrine, but I don't think it really distinguishes itself. The 18% chance of exp shrine on those a1 shrines is so good. So I'm thinking at level 97, 2 seal runs on a good map, full runs checking a4 and a1 shrines, and this hybrid 2seal/full runtype can all yield roughly equal results. But I'll keep doing a few more testing hours during the level and present more results next update, and people can decide for themselves ofc.
 
Update 5
Hours in: 75
Level: 97.71
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Welp de seis finally got me 😭.
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Glad this wasn't HC. I've had some nde's vs de seis where I was playing stupidly, but this was not even a situation like that. Felt like i just got really unlucky. Not even really sure why I died. Extra fast blessed aim venom lord pack next to de seis pack, I killed de seis himself and I died with him. There weren't many enemies around at the time, just was adjacent to de seis and one venom lord I think and there was no might aura. Took one hit and went down to 2k hp then seemed like I got 1 shot from there. Not sure if it was some death explosion from de seis (not sure what his mods were) or just a crit from that venom lord. Honestly didn't even trip my sensors as a dangerous situation.

Ah well, body recovery was smooth and it took just over 1 hour to recover the exp.

Finds
Runes: mal, mal, pul, ist, sur, ist, um, mal
Noteable s/u: vamp gaze (8/19), blinkbats, arcanna's ammy, veil of steel
Skillers: 2 (captains, mentalist)
7mfscs: 1

Nice upped the highest rune found so far to a sur. Stepping up one by one. Still feels like they're coming in more slowly than I'd like, but a sur and several mid runes helps a ton of course. Also several rare scourges from diablo, but no unique. Am sorta considering going with a higher mf approach for 98-99 even though that goes against the original plans.

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Other discussion
Not as much to say here. As I mentioned in the above comments, I was unable to replicate my 7.38m exp/hr with the two seal runs. Got just under 6.9m. Still some of the better exp I've seen reported on 97 on what I think is a subpar 2seal map. I think this method could use more extensive testing on lvl 97. But I also ran hard on my whole "if no exp shrines in rof/cs then do a 2 seal run, otherwise kill diablo" run for an hour and got just barrrely over 7m. So managed to crack 7m with 3 different run types. That feels pretty good! But the death did take the wind out of my sails as far as playing aggressively and pushing for time goes, so I finished out the rest of this 15 hour stint playing chill, more conservative full runs.

Am getting loads of shrined up amethysts with this runtype. Might have to mule on flawlesses from the general stash midway through 98, we'll see. Might have to do an epic crafting session after 99 as well :cool:. Anyways should hit 98 within the next 15 hour stint provided I don't die more. Fingers crossed! I'm gonna keep playing a lot till I get 98 (and finish up the next 15 hour stint), and then will take a break from Lindon. Hope everyone is well! Cheers 🍻.
 
Update 6
Hours in: 90
Level: 98.01
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Woohoo! About halfway through this project now! Big moment. Wanted to get 98 before the end of january, and just squeaked it in. Bought a new puppy last weekend, which derailed the schedule a bit, but got it done :). Wasn't without issue though...

Ugh. So I got to literally 97.99, had right around 20 minutes left to lvl, and did this...
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There was no reason at all to die here, and it was just a pure self-sabotaging choke. Made up for it and got 98 the same day, but I kid you not, on the very last run that got me 98 I burned through 4 rejuvs to stay alive, barely holding it together (bad tele into de seis pack for no reason was first 2, crit for >2k dmg from one minion was second, and then I ended the run with good ole conviction infector, using the 4th). Starting to wonder if I'm not cut out for an eventual foray into HC :unsure::unsure:.

Whatever got 98 at 88:56, for an avg of just under 5.9million exp/hr over the course of the level. Would have been 6.2m without those two deaths.

Finds
Finds, however, were not half bad this stint.

Runes: mal, ber, mal, ist, pul, pul, cham
Noteable s/u: first unique scourge! (was horizons :(), 2x gargoyle bite, lenymo, pluckeye, 4/3 cold facet, steel carapace, tals amulet, eth warshrike, 10fcr/13mf rare ring with AR
Skillers: 1 (fanatic)
7mfscs: 1

I said I was stepping up 1 rune by one, and indeed found a ber pretty quickly into this stint! Next is jah?.... No! Lol the game skipped over jah and gave me a cham right at the end of the stint from a p1 de seis minion. Never sad to see chams ofc, but that's my 7th cham overall, and I don't really have any use for them haha.

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Level 98-99
The plan here is to stay in CS and do p1/p7 runs, except I think I'll switch to p7 before doing the vizier seal (as the last seal) for better rune drops from his minions. I was thinking I could manage to get >3m exp/hr with this method, and sub 85 hours for the level, but during the hour I've done so far of this type of run, I was only able to get just under 2.9m, and that was without checking for gem shrines. So not sure, but we'll see. Maybe I'll improve substantially. If I do luck into finding stormlash, maybe I would try out some nihla runs or something, but for now all CS.

Furthermore, as I mentioned in my previous post, I did decide to run a high mf approach in hopes for finding stormlash, even though this goes against my original plans. I already managed to die twice, and now maximizing survivability at the expense of stormlash chances doesn't feel so important to me. I calculated and planned out a bunch of gearing alternates for this, including running a 1/10 pala fcr amulet with big fire res, switching back to rising sun, and even calc'd out some setups with ist'd branch or wizzy. In the end, it turned out that keeping the same hoto/maras setup (except with ist in shako and travs for boots) and just dropping skillers for mf scs gave me better dmg than any of those at the same mf levels.

So what I settled on was ist shako, maras, hoto, enigma, spirit, trangs, fcr/41fres ring, nagel, arachs, war travs, using my 3 best skillers (they have 90 life on them combined), a few fres/life scs, and a bunch of mf scs (some with fres) to get:

hp - 3185
mf - 402
dmg - 10k-10k
defense - 7800
fire res - 80(69 convicted)

Dumped 10 points in resist fire to get that fire res up to 80, so only 11 hard points in holy shield lowered the defense a bit. But overall quite pleased with that setup. I'll show it on video sometime in the future when i record some gameplay after I've improved a bit.

Was very pumped to hit that 98 in January goal. Now I will take like a month break at least from Lindon, and then idk if RFL will be started. But I'll be back to running him before too too long. Hope everybody had/is having a nice weekend! 🍻
 
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@Babyhell thanks a lot! Haha yeah I guess current pace would put it before end of March, but don't worry about that. My pace this month was definitely not sustainable for me. 99 will be a mid year thing at best I think :D.
 
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