Justification for cheating?

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I have to say that this thread has been exceedingly entertaining to read. Thank you all for doing this again. They say that "ignorance is bliss" well I've just discovered that the voicing of that ignorance is even more entertaining :D


I have one tip for Lord Chaos .... In a battle of wits it's better if you come armed.
 
Lord Chaos said:
Now I will have to shoot your cat!!!...stupid n00b...I hate you so much, lamer lamer lolz lolz.

I hate you so much because today Battlenet went down because you could better see the healthbars of monsters...its so horrible...and earlier today, 30 Iraiqies died because you...you so stupid, **** n00b!


YOU KILLED KENNY!!!
 
I didnt bother reading the rest of the posts...i wanted to play d2 and not grow old reading all the posts...Heres my 2 cents on the matter... Blizzard hasnt fully adressed the issue with hackers and 3rd party programs. They cant it seems (logistically) Just too many damn clever people out there. lol
I used the mh especially in late stage 1.09 in hc for a 1 big reason (the chicken mode). Trigger hacks. I hate trigger hacks. I hate any hack that gave someone else the ability to just point and kill basically and the other guy never have a chance. Some of you may not agree this as being legitimate because its still cheating...yes i did bow to their level by using a cheat. Personally...i hate that bnet has made a policy against hackers...any 3rd party programs and can only/or only chooses to ban/delete a small number of the cheaters. I took matters into my own hands because they werent(and only formyself)

I've wondered about the opening the mpq files thing for a bit today...many say its fine...other say its cheating. Tell me if you guys think they're really is a difference from reading the mpq files to discern how the game works therefore be able to optimize in ways many dont know about...vs others who dink around with loopholes that are always going to be present in the game that allow them to dupe..without even interupting others gameplay. Or even the bugs in the game that may allow for mutliple quest rewards..(there was one with the hellforge quest awhile back) For those of the people that say cheating is black and white..i mainly wanted to consider this last statement. Sure optimizing a character is different then duping items...but the purpose is to gain an advantage..this advantage is being better or having more items... I dont care if the information availible to everyone. Maphack is availible to everyone too. Not everyone knows about it or chooses to use them. The main reason is...if you want to take the black and white approach...they're staying pure. Experiment with the game on their own...if you defame the ones who use mh, but still use this forum and consider youself a legit player..i seriously question that logic. You are "gaining" that advantage that you seem to detest that other players get by using any 3rd party program. Yes this makes me a hypocrite in ways. I used mh to block the trigger hack. And yes i detest people who use hacks to kill other people. We as people though cannot go through life w/o being a hypocrite though..except for religious icons maybe :) What i've basically said in this posting is that all the people who complain about hacks...still do the same basic action of seeking a edge...whether or not its morally right is another matter...but many of us gamers do it, and will continue...there doesnt seem to be anyway of stopping it. So in closing...please dont cheat excessively...and please for the love of god..remove ebay buying from this game...it ruins the game IMO and brings in too many negative elements into the game...more hackers...more people who will do anything to make a buck.
 
To quote the great Obi Wan

"You will find that many of the truths we cling to, rely greatly on our own point of view."

So there it is .... we all have a point of view, a background from which our individual ideas of logic originate. Morals and our sense of right and wrong are man made concepts not laws of nature. Who can argue that what is right for one person must be right for another? Is maphack wrong or right? in the end that question does not matter. The question is "does it break any rules?". The answer is "Yes" ..... end of story. who cares if it is more right than something or less right then something .... these are abstract and flawed ideas.

If you have a party at home and you tell your guests that there is no smoking in your house, then those who smoke are breaking a rule and you may wish to ask them to leave. Well blizzard is in a sense having a party on battle net and we are all lucky to have been invited .... there's no cover charge and it's all you can drink. They have simply asked us to follow a couple house rules ... so who are we to say "to hell with your rules" ?
I for one am simply happy to have been invited and will therefore obey the house rules. Maybe blizzard will come to my next party ;)
 
Azonian said:
The main reason is...if you want to take the black and white approach...they're staying pure. Experiment with the game on their own...if you defame the ones who use mh, but still use this forum and consider youself a legit player..i seriously question that logic.


Since you didn't read the whole thread, I'll bring you up to speed. The subject in the above quote was all ready addressed and debunked. The sharing of information on a forum board -- or through this site in general is in no way comparable to using a 3rd party program on BNet. It's a horrible comparison.
 
Azonian said:
if you defame the ones who use mh, but still use this forum and consider youself a legit player..i seriously question that logic.
That is one of the most flawed and erroneous statements I have ever read in my life. Your opinion is wrong. Although Dredd already pointed out your obvious folly, I must further do so. Maphack changes the way the game displays certain things, IE The Map, socketables, charms, runes, other players' equipment, etc. How again do you compare that to information you can read on many sites, including Blizzard's own forums and arreat summit?!?!?!

Information ? Cheating.
Modifying game code to change the way certain things are displayed = CHEATING.
 
I'm going to be a moron and drop my two cents in without bothering to read the thread either.

(lol j/k I did go back and read from page 7 or so on, but there's so much bs)

Let's start with the facts, shall we? I'll use Maphack as an example.

1. Maphack alters the game in a way not intended by the game makers.

I think this is pretty incontestible. It's something that you're not "supposed" to have.

2. Maphack gives its users a competitive advantage over players who do not use it.

Gee, I wish I could find Durance 3 in a matter of seconds. It would make Meph runs so much easier, which means I MF faster, which means more gear, which means more tradeables, which means more wealth.. you get the idea.

3. Maphack can get your acct banned and/or hacked and looted.

If you're an idiot and get a trojaned, or if Blizzard figures out a way to detect the apparent 'undetectable', well.. I hope you don't mind shelling out for a new cd key and potentially losing all your gear.

And here's the biggest thing:

4. Maphack is a HUGE time/hassle saver.

This is pretty much the only argument I can see in it's favour. Let's be honest here - we're not all hardcore players. We don't have unlimited time to play D2. In the time that we have, a lot of us just plain want to have fun, and teleporting blindly around durance 2 or worldstone keep 2, directionless and being attacked on all sides, is generally not very much fun. The fun part is scoring the kill and getting the drops and finding the sweet stuff. Anything that accelerates that, in essense, increases the fun of the game by excising the tedium. So an argument could be made that Maphack makes the game more fun.

Now tell me truthfully: who here hasn't wished they could "legitimately" find the gear that hackers seem to find with amazingly regularity? How many of you legit folks have never even SEEN a Windforce, Tal armor or Ber rune drop? Doesn't it suck, just a little? Hasn't the thought run through your head that "oh man this would be SO much more fun it I could find things just a LITTLE bit easier"?

Has Diablo whispered his dark words of destruction in the back of your mind? He has in mine. I've considered it. I've cussed out the people who tele baal in 0.0001 seconds. I've envied those who have 10+ sojs and an unending amount of Jah/Ber runes and godly items.

But at the same time, there's a quiet recognition that if I COULD get everything incredibly easy, then the game wouldn't be fun anymore either. Sort of like playing on single player with a character editor. It gets boring after a few minutes.

Something like Maphack is a middle-ground toy. It makes the game a LITTLE easier, illegitimately, but not so easy as to rob it of challenges. You still have to spend time and effort finding stuff, but not as much as you did before. This is how it can add fun, without ruining the fun.

In my opinion, if you want to have more fun and Maphack/hacking is how you get there, feel free to go right ahead and use it. I don't care. However, there are some things you should consider before pursuing the route of hacking..

1. Are you going to reduce other people's fun as a result of your methods?

This is the big issue. I imagine many legit players answer to q1 would be an immediate yes. So then the question becomes: do you even care? For most hackers, the answer is no. They don't give a rats as long as THEY are having more fun.

This is the crux of the issue. Just knowing someone else in the game is hacking can suck all the fun out of it. I can definately sympathise with that sentiment, as it's one of the major reasons I joined a particular website of legitimate players who put in a specific effort to play amongst themselves in a co-operative fashion.

2. Do you particularly mind if you get hacked/banned/looted/have to buy a new cd key?

If potentially restarting from zilch after purchasing a new copy of Diablo 2 doesn't trouble you, feel free to risk it.

I don't give a rats what people do, as long as they don't mess with me while doing it. Now, there is a world of difference between something like maphack and being able to bring ITH on the realms. One can be seen as a timesaver.. the other is nothing more than game breaking, an item so overpowered that it actually sucks the fun out of the game. And that's where I personally draw the line - where the hack makes the game UN-fun.

Lastly.. maphack isn't a legitimate tool. Please don't argue the legitimacy of it, it's a no-contest. At the same time, if you don't have any problem, ethically, using an illegitimate thing, then that is YOUR decision. You should be honest about yourself as to whether you have an ethical problem with altering the game with third party tools. But please, do not attempt to transpose this lack of ethical conflict with any legitimacy on the part of the hack you're using. If you don't see any ethical conflict, then all the "it's a HACK!" arguments in the world aren't going to mean a thing.

That's my two lengthy cents..
 
Let me repeat myself one more time, I think Maphack is cheating, my whole point is that I'd like some of the features added to the game, either as a legit tool or directly into the game.

This is my OPINION as a player.

I do not like the map reveal thing, the chicken HC thing, etc...but I do like the things that are comparable to seeing uniques rares and sets in a certain color.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, people will do as they please and Blizzard will do as they please...we're not going to make an ounce of difference most likely.
 
Dredd said:
Since you didn't read the whole thread, I'll bring you up to speed. The subject in the above quote was all ready addressed and debunked. The sharing of information on a forum board -- or through this site in general is in no way comparable to using a 3rd party program on BNet. It's a horrible comparison.

So you say, in the end it remains an opinion, even if it is shared by others.

I have propably gained a 100 times better advantage using forums, than I could ever had even if I got the new maphack which apparently have tons of features. With it I can find better items of all kinds, know tricks to shortcuts, save tons of time...and all of this *ISN'T* avaliable to all players since many don't even know this place exist or even what to look for.
 
Lord Chaos said:
So you say, in the end it remains an opinion, even if it is shared by others.

I have propably gained a 100 times better advantage using forums, than I could ever had even if I got the new maphack which apparently have tons of features. With it I can find better items of all kinds, know tricks to shortcuts, save tons of time...and all of this *ISN'T* avaliable to all players since many don't even know this place exist or even what to look for.
This site is available to everybody. How the hell would you expect the people not to know what to look for? It stands to reason that they would look for 'Diablo 2' since that's the freaking game they're playing. Why don't you do a google search for Diablo 2 and see what comes up.

Furthermore, the ready availability of the information and its value is not the point. The point is that it isn't cheating, whereas maphack clearly is.
 
Legit player or cheater, you all have to remember that Diablo 2 is still just a game. Some of you take it too seriously, IMO.
 
Yashiro said:
Legit player or cheater, you all have to remember that Diablo 2 is still just a game. Some of you take it too seriously, IMO.
I'm not even specifically talking about diablo, although that's what this discussion spawned from, and that's what I'm using as an example.
 
Usufruct said:
This site is available to everybody. How the hell would you expect the people not to know what to look for? It stands to reason that they would look for 'Diablo 2' since that's the freaking game they're playing. Why don't you do a google search for Diablo 2 and see what comes up.

Furthermore, the ready availability of the information and its value is not the point. The point is that it isn't cheating, whereas maphack clearly is.


Hrmm i think you missed my original point....there were people who were using loopholes in the game aka code searching and in general researching the game thoroughly...to find things they could exploit (duping runes-sound familiar?)...tell me thats not cheating. What this forum does is something different granted...its INTENT is not to "cheat" but to "help" The actions this forum took though to obtain that information is still the same as those who exploited the game to dupe/hack what not (they researched code..they tried different combos of actions to see the effect. I've never really felt comfortable using the mh back in 1.09 and i dont use it now. My intent was not to "cheat" but to help myself just survive vs the hacks that were out there. As i said...i felt it was my only choice in the face of all the trigger hacks that 1 button killed helpless players because bnet WASNT adressing the issue fully. We all know we see hacking still...If i'm still branded for using the mh for this purpose and for my choice not to use it in 1.10, then fine...i've already discussed this and how i felt. My arguements arent that erranoeous though. I've already shown that actions that are taken by both "sides" are almost exactly the same. Its information thats made availible. This information can be used for good or abused. Just as those who found the loopholes and bugs that let them do willy nilly (druid drop bug-sound familiar?) I dont understand why you seem to think my arguement is bad..but you're only choosing to see 1 sentence...if you tell me that my point is wrong tell me how it is wrong.
 
I have never had to download hacks to protect myself from other hacks. It sounds stupid in principle.

Oh btw: Gettig a copy of the exam so you KNOW ahead of time what's going to appear (sounds like MH, eh?) is cheating. However, studying your butt off with a bunch of friends (sounds like this board) is NOT.

And WHY the HECK are we still on this topic? The horse is beyond dead! Not only have we killed it, we've probably kileld whatever it reincarnated into! It's been ground up into canned meat! Stop beating it!
 
I'll tell you how your point is wrong.
Azonian said:
The actions this forum took though to obtain that information is still the same as those who exploited the game to dupe/hack what not.
Read the whole thread so you don't sound like an idiot anymore. These actions are not the same at all. And *even if they were* it still would not be the same thing.

You need to understand the fundamental difference between these two things:
1. Reading .mpq files containing game data
2. Changing Game Code in violation of the EULA.

You have argued nothing that we haven't seen before in this very thread. You are comparing the information available on this website to third party cheat programs, two things which are dissimilar both fundamentally and practically.
 
tl998 said:
I have never had to download hacks to protect myself from other hacks. It sounds stupid in principle.

Oh btw: Gettig a copy of the exam so you KNOW ahead of time what's going to appear (sounds like MH, eh?) is cheating. However, studying your butt off with a bunch of friends (sounds like this board) is NOT.

And WHY the HECK are we still on this topic? The horse is beyond dead! Not only have we killed it, we've probably kileld whatever it reincarnated into! It's been ground up into canned meat! Stop beating it!

Hrmm you never got killed by an amazon shooting guided arrows at you then i take it in 1.09? I lost 2 characters 90+ in hc because of that trigger hack. And I woulda lost another 3 if it wasnt for the chicken feature on mh.
I wouldnt let that hack dictate in which games i play in or not...i shouldnt have to. Bnet is supposed to be hack free.

Oh does anyone remember the talk about mf on bosses when 1.10 first came out? The talk that was coming from blizzard was that they nerfed it. It was later found out that mf still worked on bosses. How was this found out? Code searchers. Without this information people would have assumed it was this way...but either by a mistake of bnet or purposely (who knows) it was left as was...so what happens? People go mf meph and others yet again. Also the bug associated with andariel and her drops being always the 1st quest drop (which is better in quality). This was a bug in the game that WAS NOT INTENDED. NO WHERE DID BNET OR AREAT SUMMIT POST THAT THIS WAS THE WAY IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE. THIS "STUDYING" LED TO AN EXPLOIT THAT WASNT!!!!!!!!! INTENDED. So tell me ... if you were told by the teacher to study for certain things...and told you not to study for other things...and later you found out he lied...so you studied for the parts you needed to .... this isnt cheating by finding out what the teacher didnt want you to know?
 
tl998 said:
Stop beating it!
Well now I think I see the why Chaos is still on the topic, he's been doomed to "beat it" for life and is frustrated :D (ya, direct attack but I couldn't help it with a set up like that)
 
Usufruct said:
I'll tell you how your point is wrong.
Read the whole thread so you don't sound like an idiot anymore. These actions are not the same at all. And *even if they were* it still would not be the same thing.

You need to understand the fundamental difference between these two things:
1. Reading .mpq files containing game data
2. Changing Game Code in violation of the EULA.

You have argued nothing that we haven't seen before in this very thread. You are comparing the information available on this website to third party cheat programs, two things which are dissimilar both fundamentally and practically.

oh fine...how do you get the freaking code? 3rd party program...someone already mentioned this. So you're also telling me that you thought the duping of rune episode isnt cheating? because its not altering the code? They most likely used a program to read the also to find out what part of the code could be exploited. We did the same. Bnet chooses to let us know what information we need to know. We're just the customers
 
Azonian said:
oh fine...how do you get the freaking code? 3rd party program...someone already mentioned this.
Wrong. You again lack understanding of a key difference. Mpq files do not require decompilation, and therefore reading them does not violate the EULA. Changing actual game code does violate the EULA, and it's completely different from reading info that is in .mpq files.
Azonian said:
So you're also telling me that you thought the duping of rune episode isnt cheating? because its not altering the code?
The first dupe did not require altering the code but it did require causing large amounts of server-side lag, in effect, a DOS attack through Diablo. The second dupe, the larger one, required third party software called 'd2hackit' to work.

Cheating requires breaking a rule. The creators of this website did not break any rules.

I can't stress enough, you have no place arguing here until you have read the whole thread. All of your inane arguments have been addressed at least once before.
 
Lord Chaos said:
Let me repeat myself one more time, I think Maphack is cheating, my whole point is that I'd like some of the features added to the game, either as a legit tool or directly into the game.

This is my OPINION as a player.

I do not like the map reveal thing, the chicken HC thing, etc...but I do like the things that are comparable to seeing uniques rares and sets in a certain color.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, people will do as they please and Blizzard will do as they please...we're not going to make an ounce of difference most likely.

You don't have to repeat yourself again. You've done it already too many times. It almost seems your bumping this thread.
 
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