HC Grailer almost ready~ Pit Zerker Or Pit Singer?

Yori96

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Hey guys, asking for some assistance from the professionals. :) I finally got my barb to LK, he was WC up until Hell then I switched to Zerk, farmed NM Meph until I found bone snap and then slowly pushed up to LK, started farming today and found 2 ber runes in less than an hour O.O unreal RNG, so now that i'm getting close to Enigma, I need to know what you guys would recommend for HC, from what I've found Pit Zerker is a very risky play, how risky is very risky? Whereas the Pit Singer has almost the same efficiency but is limited to basically pits and /p1.. Just want some feedback / arguments each way to decide. I still have my hell stat reset and I'm going to farm meph in hell to get Shaggo / Travs / Chancies / Goldwrap (still deciding on gear ect) but I will farm Meph for that before I go to the pits and I will still obviously have to farm enough for Enigma / Grief or Hoto or w/e way we end up going. I know it's going to be a long journey but I want to make the right decision as well. xD Any help / thoughts would be apprecaited.
 
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Babyhell

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Well for what is worth, here's my own PitZerker building thread, and Gripphon's comparison between Zerker and Singer in the Pits.

For HC, I am not sure about maxing MF all the way up, even though it's much more safe than I thought initially...being my first experience with a Zerk build, I needed some time to adapt, but now I just don't die anymore (yes, I'm SC on this char), leaving plenty of full purples on the floor, so... I guess it means that's quite a safe build. And it's a p1 build too btw.

@Luhkoh has taken quite a bit of time to make sheets for Zerk optimization, the link shall be in my own thread at the beginning.

Regarding option, the one that makes the more sense is probably the Trang Oul Girth, to have well rounded belt without MF but with CBF, life, etc...

For the gloves, for a zerker LoH are providing quite a boost in damage to have smoother and safer runs while being as or more efficient. But for a Singer, I don't know.

Health pool seems to be quite safe around 2k6 after BO, but in HC I would probably sacrifice some MF to get 3k. 500+ mana after BO is also somehow enough not to fear about mana burning as long as the aura 17 Insight merc is alive.

Anyway, those were few words, all the details are given in @Gripphon's thread and/or resources linked in my own one (i just learnt from those resources, but linked them in mine as references). If you're interested in, I put a MF table reference and the formula for uMF breakpoints in my own thread too.

GL on your journey!

Oh, and btw...join the hunt!
 
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Luhkoh

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Singer has to be the best hc mf build period imo. Nearly 5k life and great cc with 700mf? What's not to love? You can absolutely make zerker work for hc if desired (ive seen hc players mention playing one with rhyme or with stormshield offhand to get max block), but I think singer would likely be both better and safer.
 
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Yori96

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Thanks for the feedback. :) The reason I am thinking Zerker is because he has more uses than just pits if I want to go take him to 99 ect.

I also don't have the ultra elite gear yet to take a singer to 5K life ha, and 700MF I would assume takes a pile of 7% SC's? What would you gear him up with otherwise? Also why Rhyme over SS for maxblock? ( I think I saw DB say this but he also doesn't play HC)
 
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I would strongly recommend a Singer if your intention is to MF as much as possible to build an item base.

I ran a HC Singer in the last MFO to good results (3rd place in the A85 category), and he was extremely safe. His full gear breakdown is here, so you can see what I used. His gear is by no means super elite, so probably a decent comparable for you once you get your enigma. The reason I suggest Singer is the same as everyone else; to not die. My Singer "only" has 4k life, and he's so safe it's practically boring.

Yes, a Zerker is a bit more efficient and can run more areas, but only if he survives. If you want to bomb around in other spots, you can always make another char for them with all the goodies your singer will find. :)
 
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Yori96

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So what would the difference be between singer and using a zerker w/ max block? I feel like the only time zerker using howl and max block would be at a loss would be when he's attacking and if you're being careful and have 3.XK HP + howl, wouldn't that be almost the same survivability?
 
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Zerkers are a very involved build. They can be very safe but when you play them at top speed there is a lot going on, and a lot of attacks can get through. Remember, we're talking potentially thousands of runs here, you have to expect that a nasty situation will crop up.

Singers by nature are basically unkillable with halfway-proper equipment. Their main attack literally stuns everything around them, leaving very few surprises. There is a lot more room for mistakes.

This is not to say that Zerkers are glass cannons or anything, they are great and you can find many testaments to their prowess throughout the forum. I can only speak for myself, but I've killed my (SC) Zerker a few times, and I've never once killed a Singer (including an underpowered tournament one). It all boils down to one thing though: do what you WANT to do! It makes no sense to make an MFing character that you don't want to play, since the whole point is to play them lots. You can always try out the Zerker build, and if you find it too fragile or dangerous, switch.
 

Yori96

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I think I need to go Zerk... Just my feels. :/ I just want to smash stuff, I don't want my mercenary to do ALL of the work LOL.

So if I was to go Zerk & HC, I know it will be slower than a sorc but what would you guys recommend for Skills/Gear?

I'm thinking Skills :

20 Zerk
20 BO
20 Howl
20 WC
Rest Find Item?

My thoughts behind this are as much life as possible, as much defensive skills as possible, I think the teleport in -> howl -> WC in HC would be required?

Then for items... Going to farm Hell Meph for quite some time for this once I've farmed my Nigma, but...

Shako
Enigma
W1 :Grief PB / StormShield (or should I use something else?)
W2 : Wizspike / Spirit (to hit FCR breakpoint) ; in a Monarch
Goldwrap
Chance Guards
WarTravelers
Rings : Nagels? (Maybe 1 Raven Frost until I can cham shako?)
Amu : Highlords or cats eye or maybe a crafted amu? idk...


Charms, obviously, enough to make sure I have max res, then focus on life until I'm over 4K and then rest MF?


STR - Enough for gear
Dex - Max Block?
Life - Rest?
Mana - None?


With this setup I hit the 63fcr breakpoint, probably not as fast as the 105 but much safer I feel? or maybe I should be trying to hit 105 to cast my stuff quicker in a pinch, if that's the case then... I don't know what to switch out, I guess I would need to farm arachnids mesh and craft a caster amulet? 50 from wiz / 35 from spirit / arachs gets me to 105? I feel like this is going to be a very long journey haha. :D


Any feedback would be appreciated. :)
 

Luhkoh

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Zerker isn't as safe as singer imo, even if you build him tanky. Warcry offers a lot of cc and it means you don't have to be right up in the enemies face quite as much. The play is just more simple so you it's easier to pay attention to not dying. And he'll just have a lot more hp no matter how you build him. But I'm sure you can make zerker to where he's still more tanky than most other classes. So if thats what you want to do then go for it, and keep in mind this advice is coming from a sc player. Also singer is easier to gear up in the beginning since you dont need grief. As for more areas/99ing, I dont really see it. Unless there's somewhere with a lot of physical immunes but not magic immunes that you want to run. But zerker is not a viable 99 character. A lot of people seem to think this and i have no idea why. 99ing is all about killing loads of minions fast, and zerker kills one enemy at a time. You could get to 95 or 96 in a semi reasonable amount of time if you play either one a whole lot, but more than that would take loads and loads of play unless you respec to ww like most 99er barbs do.
 
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Babyhell

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@Yori96 going that route, do not use Ravenfrost - you don't want to shatter things with cold damage.

In my opinion it would be better to use a second Nagelring, and a Trang-Oul Girth instead of the Goldwrap (you also get some mana and 66 BOable life from it).

From there, you need your additional IAS either from amulet (HLW), or LoH instead of Chancies (which also adds massive damage bonus to demons).

Using such stuff, at clvl 90, you would have
90 from Enigma,
74 from PTopazed Shako
30 + 30 from such Nagelrings
up to 50 with War Traveler's
30 if you Ist your Stormshield
--> total 304MF without inventory.

I bet that in HC 700+MF is clearly not the target, without 6 ists pb I don't see how, but maybe 500 can be a thing if the resistances to be maxed are chosen (that would make a lot of nice charms in inventory).

But maybe I missed a point somewhere.
 

Yori96

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Yeah, 99 was a bad example but I just don't want to wait around for my merc to kill everything LOL

Ok so let's play devils advocate and say I'm going to go the singer route ;

What would the build be then and what would the merc wear for maximum efficiency?


I was also sent this video from a guy as well ;

Doesn't seem that risky and he's not at the 105bp and doesn't look like he's playing very well lol, not even using WC
 

Babyhell

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Yes. 5k life after BO, and full damage oriented (Death/Beast, HLW, LoH, Guillaume's, SoE, even Ravenfrost). It is an option I didn't think about to be honest, I was more around getting high MF...Well, you'll have to choose which one fits your needs!
 

Yori96

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Ugh... So hard to pick, I think being efficient and being able to take on the world is important. I'm in no rush to finish my grail and know it will take a very long time, but I want to have fun too and I don't find WC barbs fun, we will see what runes drop and what way I go... He did go full damage, not sure how he got his life so high either but I feel hitting 4K life, you would have very low risk of death.... Hm...... What to do. Maybe I will farm the reset skill tokens and then use AKARA to play WC for a time and then if I farm what I need switch to Zerk. :/
 
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Yori96

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Ok, so after reading @Luhkoh & @Pb_pal 's post here.... I've decided to go singer for now. xD I managed to re-roll a map that drops me both a Thresher every 1/10~ games or so and a Wyrmhide ever 9/10 games, while trying to finish my enigma (no luck so far....) I've rolled a 1023 Def Eth Treach Now and a 4OS Eth Thressher 17 Med insight, I still only have a steal skull on him that I farmed off NM Meph but for now I think once my enigma is done, this will at least allow me to farm pits very safely.... I will however probably switch once I farm the right items to do a berserker (or if I manage to farm a Lo while trying to finish enigma lol)

So then I just have a few questions I suppose. :/

Once I'm done enigma (on run 570 at this point, found ber/ber/gul/um (ber ber I found in the first 35 runs on this barb), I can use spirit sword / sigons and my basic gear until I find what I need

OR

I can stick with Zerk which I switched to to get through Hell and farm Hell meph until I find shako/travs/chancies/nagel ect

then switch

because I still have my up'd bonesnap I farmed off NM meph

I know I'm getting ahead of myself as I have a lot of farming left before I find either another Ber or two Sur, but which way would you guys go? I may also switch back to pushing through Trav - > to meph so that I can start alternating between meph and LK (if I have a good meph map, not risking re-rolling to try and get both, but can't hurt to see)

What do you guys think?


Edit : Also, I'm just getting back in to the game... I assume making Enigma in a Wyrmhide is fine? Trying to find the best one I can while running these maps obviously, also cubing every base above 460 I find to try to get 3/4os to either mule off or use for Enigma
 

Babyhell

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It depends if you want to share that armor or be only for this char. Breast plate will give some less def but much more BOable life due to less strength req (30 vs 84), and the fact that Enigma shall give enough strength to hold everything else. Light and Mage plate are also nice options to be considered.

Edit: you want to wear Stormshield, so it has to be taken into account, my bad!

So at clvl 80 it is 60 Strength from Enigma, 85 is 63 Strength, 90 is 67 Strength.
Given the War Traveler's, you will need 10 Strength less for Monarch, 12 including Shako, so by wearing Enigma alone you shall have 144 Strength. In the end:
clvl 80 -> 84 raw str
clvl 85 -> 81 raw str
clvl 90 -> 77 raw str

Based upon the clvl you have when completing Enigma (and the War Traveler's/Shako availability), either Wyrmhide or Dusk Shroud are the best options statswise. But if you do prefer Wyrmhide for the style, it is up to you too ;-)
 
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Pyrotechnician

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Here is a HC Singer gameplay video from an old forum member, he is not around much (or at all anymore) but I used to play with him pretty frequently. If I recall he always played without a mouse and on a track pad on a mac book so take that into account while you watch:


Edit: This one is probably better since he previews his gear (although very very quickly)

 

Yori96

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@Babyhell

I'm not 100% sure on SS yet and that's only when I switch to Zerk anyways so for now maybe lower STR would be better, although I'm not sure it completely matters as of yet. Would you recommend the SS way on HC? That guy went for a 6 ist sword which is probably the right way, I don't even have 1 IST at the moment however so that's a ways away and I don't have the crafted amu he has so I think going Wizspike / Spirit Monarch (if I'm going the SS route anyways/potentially) is the wiser choice anyways.

Edit : Your response also indicates I have farmed the rest of my gear with the assumption of stats, so I Assume you think I should farm meph once I finish Enigma

@Pyrotechnician

Very interesting that he went max taunt instead of max howl, the rest makes sense... I wonder why.
(Really appreciate that share)
 

Babyhell

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I probably would recommend SS in HC for obvious reasons until enough HP are available at least.

Also, you can use temporary Strength charms if you don't find WT or Shako quickly but want to go Berserk with only one respec available. Or a Strength jewelry?

The 6 Ists Phaseblade is the obvious MF choice. Maybe to be kept for <chose an HP amount> life to be available!
 

Yori96

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I think I'm going to farm Hoto/Enigma and transition to WC quickly and just start farming pits, tried Meph, would be a very long grind, whereas my merc is already geared, I think I can do pits with WC and start farming gear faster that way
 
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