Futility of radical WW theories.

[rikstaker1]

Futility of radical WW theories.

WIAS doesn't matter,range doesn't matter,whats next?

This has always baffled me.

If according to them, range doesn’t make a difference in "general gameplay" u will surely see more Barbs with weapons like Nord's tenderizer-decent damage,reaches bp its own.Gpas/zerks wouldn’t sell for ~30$.

I don't get it, why is range being treated like a pushover?-infact the long range weapons also happen to be high damage weapons. What's their point? Do they have any realistic benefit in mind? Are there any range 1/2 weapons that stand up to zerkers or gpas if damage is the benchmark?

I WILL not use a 1h weapon shorter than range 3 for pvp or pvm & I am sure I am not alone. The only exceptions I'd make with range is with 2h weapons: ribcracker, IK maul, windhammer. No more no less. That too just because of the damage & uber mods like cb they have & the set bonuses of IK, in elemental damages which make it attractive for ww. But that doesn’t put them at par with long range weapons if hit frequency/radius is the benchmark.

9 out of 10 barbs I build are pure ww barbs, I know there are thousands who build 10 out of 10 & much frequently. One thing I can bet my tail on is that apart from damage, IAS & Range, are two things which are crucial to the effectiveness of ww. And anyone who has built an IK/ribcracker barb and a gpa/spear barb will know that there is considerable disparity between them in hit frequency & hit radius.

If someone tells me that the performance of ww barbs when using short range weapons & long range weapons doesn’t differ or doesn’t differ much-I have nothing to say to you-you believe in that-I know it’s totally false from my experience with building ww barbs with varying range weapons.

One thing I do know & beleive-not from tests but by observing while playing, is that the difference between range 1 weapons & range 5 weps isn't 5x.Or range 5 weps dont hit monsters from 5 times further. I am certain that weapon range is an extension of "base range" which has a certain 'reach' of its own. Range 1 weapons are more like range 2 or 3 and range 5 are like range 6 or 7-It brings down the difference between them from 5 x to 3x or so. But that doesn't make range less important.

WIAS doesn’t matter is another radical theory doing rounds-I really don’t see the point of claims that all weapons get 2 free hit checks regardless of the WIAS on the 4th & 8th frame,if I am not mistaken. I dont care if it is true.I cant prove it wrong,neither can I confirm it.

They say by keeping your whirls “short†aka DOD, one can expect the same performance as barbs who use weapons that are lwbp compatible(last ww bp). Short meaning 8 frames-& it doesn’t take a genius to realize that Heck!! that’s short.

What these test junkies fail to realize or state clearly, is that their test conditions are tooootally different from actual gameplay. They carry out their tests on a single/stationary target, observe results which vary every time they test, make out a rough average or establish the result of one of their test as facts.

IMO oberving,learning when playing yourself or watching others play,provided one plays enough & varies his style,will paint a more accurate picture of facts than some leaky air tunnel testing.Actual experience will always be superior.p.

I tried that out in actual gameplay with a lwbp incompatible weapon to understand the implications. Apart from getting gangbanged, I found I couldn’t sustain my attack to keep my life & mana balls filled up at comfort levels with leech. Plus in hell there is always the threat of mana burns. Using DOD against them is well...

Besides it is a general tendency of all ww barbs – to try & hit as many monsters in a single whirl-After all, isn’t that half of the reason which makes ww so special?

What is even more aggravating is when people read about these tests in places like Lurker lounge-and say wow! And instead of doing what a www (wise whirlwind)barb should do, i.e use judgement-try to recollect what they know & what is established through consensus as facts or better still hit the road & see for themselves if that really is the case or if the test results are too technical, they try and ask the implications of it.

"Alright, you are saying something which is way over my head"

“what’s your point here?†Does it mean I should throw away my gpa/zerk & go back to war pikes or use t.mauls? If he says yes, they say –“Nice knowing youâ€

While others.. read that stuff get thrilled & go hunt for subscribers but… once in a while they stumble upon and face the wrath of a jerk like me.

*That was cool Rik*
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Citing the ever increasing frequency of such radical theories plus the flooding of the forum with questions on things such as breakpoint.

We..decided…

Nahh it goes like this

We Would take this opportunity to humbly announce a…

Comprehensive WW barb guide.

A Joint venture between me & Xpumafang.

It will comprise…

- PVP(casters,melee)- separate sections
- PVM(2h,wep/shield, dualwield-separate sections)& an exclusive IK section.
- Listing & grading of all lwbp weapons-with full focus on bp.
- Poor man’s ww section
- WW for special occasions (mf, clone killing)
- Apart from the above an in-depth analysis of ww’s requirements & factors.
- Strategy & “Pain zonesâ€(mana burn,unleechables,chaos sanctuary)
- Tweaking ww for extreme performance.

Work has been under way for a month now. Puma is carrying out extensive "actual gameplay" testing in pvp with ow/dualwield, while I am taking my ww barbs through hell (questing)in pvm for some dmg to mana & slow r/w speed testing. Besides he has the list of all lwbp weapons handy, we’ll just shave it & grade those weapons which are suitable. Intro section is done,Skill points is under way.I had originally thought about releasing the dmg to mana test results with the guide, but since it was potentially useful information, decided against it. We are trying our best to get it out asap-but alas work…..

I fully realize there are two many guides stickyed & there is already a ww guide by Gmoura. Full marks to him, but we believe the ace skill deserves a bit more coverage than it got. Plus we actually evaluated the need-based on the numbers & category of ww questions being asked.

Honestly, our motive isn’t fame,We are just trying to simplify something which has been unnecessarily complicated. Plus as said above, the real motive is providing a comprehensive guide which covers everything that players seek. We are just supplying the demand. It will open up the forum for some really crazy OT dis…shutting up.

We will not demand it to be stickeyed-it will be on a webpage-if it does get a good response & is stickeyed fine-if it doesn’t, then no hard feelings on our part.

rIK

* Puma!! check ur mail*

 

[Oversized_D2player]

I can't wait to read your guide. Your answers to WW questions are always well thought out and seem to come from "In game experience" rather than plagiarising someone elses work. A small suggestion is to include the effect on fast r/w on ww in both pvp and pvm and a detailed breakdown of breakpoints and a good explanation of how all that stuff (i admit i don't totally understand) works. With no disrespect to gmoura (his guide is awesome and the inspiration to my build) there isn't a lot of information on PvP in his guide.
I would also like to see a section that breaks down:
If i add 300 more base defense how much will that net after shout and natural res (something more simple than a mathematical formula x4(shout-natural56)*pie).
Also a comparison of best weapons
EBOTD+Beast>EBOTD+Wiz in xxxxx duels.. but EBOTD+Beast<EBOTD+Wiz in yyyyy duels
Enigma>stone etc etc...
Just a few suggestions look forward to reading your guide

 

[mstrnicegui]

go rIK and puma, rah rah sis boom bah! I'd have loved to make one of these a long time ago, but I don't have the time nor the.... nah, I'm just lazy :lol:

I 100% agree with the disparity between testing limits and actual gameplay limits. While it is possible to make a range 1 weapon hit as often as a range 5 weapon, it is much harder to do so, and why? except for the purpose of pushing the limits to see where they lie, there is no reason.

You've all heard rumors...
- range isn't important
- bps don't matter
- blah blah blah

I'm here to tell you they're all true. WHAT?!?!?! Yes they are all true in leaky airtunnel tests. Now stop following all the rumors and go play. Once rIK and puma are done testing, come back and read their guide. Think on it and take their word as god. Seeing as you do that with constantly wrong information already, why break an old habit on good information?

Good luck guys and hurry up, I wanna learn something already.

 

[Ash Housewares1]

that crap kept coming up because there was no definitive source to reference, we couldn't say "just ask Darius"

so good luck, it would be great to have something to point to when those questions/theories come up

 

[kayge]

I cant help but feel this was aimed at me and i just want to remind you that all the info we have on ww was garnered through testing by players is it so hard to believe that those players test contained a margin of error or were simply not taken to the next level. I should also state Fully 90% of the testing on this site was done in pre-1.10 environs. I am not saying it is wrong I am simply saying you are being an elitist who thinks long range weapons are the best weapons for ww and your gonna gonna write guide to prove it and at the same time disprove all the testing done on other sites.

fyi speed only matters after the first two attacks every weapon regardless of speed will get a minimum of two attacks in the first 8 frames of a ww. Why are you so willing to discount this information?

 

[kfowler]

Just a thought. I think two reasons why people ignore range are they can't "see" the benefits and they don't understand it. I us a Tomb Reaver and one of the biggest advantages for me is skirting the edge of a pack of monsters. Ex: With Minions of Desetruciton, I can skirt along the edge of the pack landing multiple hits at safe distances instead of plunging through the middle of the carnage. I definietly see the benefit.

 

[Ash Housewares1]

Just a thought. I think two reasons why people ignore range are they can't "see" the benefits and they don't understand it. I us a Tomb Reaver and one of the biggest advantages for me is skirting the edge of a pack of monsters. Ex: With Minions of Desetruciton, I can skirt along the edge of the pack landing multiple hits at safe distances instead of plunging through the middle of the carnage. I definietly see the benefit.

it's really nice, I've always been a skimmer, not a hold down whirler, I would find my spot and pass by the enemies skirting the edge

I remember when they changed WW in the beta so it had a windup I never noticed it because I don't hold it down, I like the tactical use of WW alot better

 

[acceleration turkey]

Range

first of all, i think it was a worthy effort on the part of myself and others to dispell the myth that there is a mathematical relationship between hits and range, as if there is an equation in the game code. there is no such equation, but a lot of people do enjoy longer range more because of the reality of the game environment. longer range often allows you access to more targets, but that is not a function of range per se.

the game environment is adjustable, and so you can get out of it what you put in. if you are like me, you use a lot of war cries. i put the monsters where i want them, then begin attacking. if i get lazy, i have to deal with sometimes not reaching far enough with a ribcracker.

what i was protesting before was the order of WW priorities, that range came before crushing blow. obviously its not possible to discuss exactly, because it depends how much range and how much crushing blow. but i would say that, for every point of range under 5 that i had to give up, i would want the crushing blow to scale up.

this means:
range 5 0% CB
range 4 10% CB
range 3 22% Cb
range 2 36% CB
range 1 52% CB

that is 10 + 12 + 14 + 16, a rought estimate. i am scaling it because the difference between a range 2 and a range 1 weapon is more significant than the difference between a range 4 and range 5 because of the margin of difference.

with these CB estimations, im talking minimum, as in base, as in the weapon had really better have this if i am giving up the range. as it turns out, there are several weapons that rik named, ik maul, windhammer and ribcracker, which meet my demands at range 2.

in my opinion, you will not kill faster with a long range weapon than with crushing blow, you will only clean up weak monsters faster. i really dont care how many fallen i grab when whirlwinding through an encampment. in fact, i often care more about concentrating hits on players 8 lister pack, because if i were to 'land a few extra hits' by skirting the pack they would regenerate it before i could hit them again. when facing strong targets, getting a few more scattered hits wont decrease your kill time significantly the way that crushing blow will.

there was an argument a long time ago that seems to have fallen by the wayside...the minute they changed WW from a 1 frame attack (constant hit checking) to having a limited hit check, people were already doubting the lancers because they realized that the hits were sometimes being spread too thin, and so if you had a stronger and shorter weapon it could actually work in your favor (sometimes).

im not saying that its better to have a short weapon. what i am saying is that range is not inherently valuable, because it is a matter of play style. when i started out i wasnt trying to prove that short weapons were any good, i was just saying that i felt that, largely, decent crushing blow would serve you better. since it is all proportional anyway, if you feel you are getting your money's worth, i dont see any reason to shove anything down anyone's throat.

just dont repeat the old lie that there is an equation where range increases the number of hits, or that more range automatically means more hits, and less range automatically means fewer hits. you need targets to get hits, and targets are dynamic, so there is no exact benefit of range. with the barb especially, you can have a few or as many targets as you want, and you can literally put them wherever you want them. if you are willing to do the hotkeying work and not be lazy, you can kill faster with a high CB/low range weapon. if you just want to drive around on screen, i recommend a long weapon.

however, if you want to stay very safe, i recommend a long weapon for skirting ability as mentioned, which is indeed unique to long weapons, because they outreach most monsters. when you are moving past a monster, they have to wind up to strike you, and you are often past them by the time their weapon comes down.

i think gui's argument for range is the strongest, but it relies on the distinction between 'what is good to have on a WW weapon' and 'what is good to have, in sum, on a WW character.' range is inherent to weapons, and cannot be found on other gear, whereas crushing blow can, so if given the choice it is conceivable that one could have very high crushing blow in addition to a range 5 weapon, but that you cannot have a range 1 weapon that has 100% crushing blow on it and use your boots to get more range. if you work hard enough, you can certainly have a lot of crushing blow on a setup where the weapon itself has none.

halberd/great poleaxe remains my favorite weapon base, for any character and any build. it looks great and i love the range. i am rolling a gpa in the stash of every one of my hell characters when they find flawless gems. i am trying to get a cruel/quickness gpa to make a WW character. im telling you this because i am not a gpa hater or a range hater. i am simply saying that there is sometimes too much taken for granted about WW that is not a given.

Hit check:

as for the 4-8 frame hit check, it exists. go test it. i just put a normal pike, great maul and war staff, all base [20], on my barb and used WW in hell blood mood. with no ias and a [20] base there is no way that slow thing can hit at 4 frames, but it was hitting if i began the whirl in range of the monster, with the 5, 3 and 2 range weapons. you can hear two 4-frame hits, and then the lack of hits that follow the initial quick burst because a base [20] weapon has such ridiculously poor check frequency.

obviously i dont know exactly what frames are being checked. all i can say is that it scores 2 quick hits off the bat, and that the space between the hits is 4 frames, and that if i start out of range of the monster i never get the fast double. could be a 5 and 9 frame hit check for all i know. the point is that there should be no way for a base [20] weapon to hit even at 8 frames let alone 4, but you can hear and see it. check it out.

what i am not going to do is recommend that anyone use 8 frame whirls. to me that seems beyond the pale of the whole dynamic environment argument. making 8 frame whirls is not only a large pain, but also dangerous to your mana because you are relying on those 2 hits to fill you ball. i imagine that you could easily get stranded. it would also be difficult because if you wanted to hit a particular monster you would first have to walk next to it to begin, which may not always be safe, or a good use of time.

Conclusion

i am not going to make the leap from 'there is a 4 frame hit check on any weapon for the first 8 frames' to 'ias does not matter.' similarly, i am not making the leap from 'if you adjust your play style you will probably enjoy high crushing blow more than high range' to 'range does not matter at all.' of course range is desirable.

needless to say, there is a 4-8 frame check (or something like it), and there are ways to make a short weapon useful. i personally dont go to lurker lounge, and i do not play online. i get my info from this forum and the stats forum, and from online calcs and tables, and from my own testing. no one 'told me' that range doesnt matter, it is my opinion. someone did post here that there is a 4-8 frame check, and i doubted him but expressed that he might be on to something. having tested it, i think he is right, but that asking people to make their whirlwinds 8 frames long is a little too ridiculous. but that does not mean it is not true that the check exists. the guy deserves a lot of credit for finding that out.

i hope in your guide you give the facts as well as well as play strategy. i believe that these two things do not have to be at odds. i think you have a lot to offer as far as play strategy, and so i hope you do not get carried away and forget that the existence of the 4-8 frame check and a lack of existence of the range equation are the true facts about WW, even if they dont factor or shouldnt factor heavily, in your opinion, into a player's gear choice. if you wish to undervalue the importance of the 4-8 frame check or undervalue the ease by which you can make a short weapon useful, it is your prerogative to do so, and as always i respect your opinion as someone who is passionate about the barb class and delivering good information to the forum. good luck with the guide.

 

[RTB]

I seriously suggest all of you to read through this thread:
WW mechanics

Those are the facts. I suggest you build your theories around those, and not game experience.

 

[Gothrius]

Whoa ... this sure is an intimidating thread.

To read this is to believe that building a WW barbarian is an enormously complicated undertaking that can be accomplished with a modicum of proficiency only by the intensively learned and thoroughly schooled.

I think I'll stay with soft, warm, fuzzy builds like Concentrate, Frenzy, and Leap Attack.

:cheesy:

 

[Loca`ne]

ok... lets get a few things out into the open...

why do you pick a range 5 weapon over a range 3 weapon? because it has the reach and you'll be able to hit more monsters but using the tactic I call skirting. Moving around in semigeometrical paterns on the outside of mobs... not through them. This in turn makes them A: come after you, moving into your range and there by giving you more attack opportunities. B allows for more hits on a single apponent instead of just spreading the damage out too evenly and actually takes LONGER to kill.

As a Whirler range is key, if you are a Concer/Zerker/Frenzyer damage mods are key IE CB, DS blah blah blah... so range becomes second in the line if that. Why else is range key for WW? Because if you're the savy and experienced player your weapons(or other EQ) have several status mods to them, IE reduce target def, prevent monster heal, slow by %, whatever you like. Take the staple of most melee weapons out there, the ebotd weapons... I would take a range 5 weapon over any lower range botd any day of the week/month/year what have you. Why? for two reasons, pure unadulterated damage, and for the range itself. Why would I want to use a ebotd zerker axe when I can do nearly 2x the damage with a ebotd great poleaxe or warpike. The lowest range I'd want to go for a WW barb would be 4 and even then I wouldn't accept anything else but a glorious axe.

Fact remains is even if CB, DS, OW or whatever else doesn't work well at the full range of 5 it doesn't matter... at that range, you concider any damage done as a preimptive strike. They'll move towards you anyway and then your can start talking to me about CB.

rik/xpuma, hurry up with that guide I'd like to see it soon if ya need any help ... don't ask me I'm on east

Loca

 

[mstrnicegui]

Gothrius, there is a reason why ww is such a complicated skill now. It started when the mechanics of ww back before LoD were much simplified. ww was a godly skill and did crazy damage and got a ridiculous number of hits in. Ever since, Blizzard has slowly been nerfing ww down to its current state, which is complicated as hell. You don't have to understand the mechanics to build a good ww barb, but in order to build a great one you definitely need to have a general understanding of some of the finer points. While I don't like how complicated ww has become, it is a decent trade-off that allows ww to not be too godly easy. It can still be godly with some knowledge and practice, but the general majority will only ever been good with it.

 

[rikstaker1]

Now way RTB. Count me out.
---------------------

I have this stickeyed on my refrigerator .

**
I paid for a game,I got a game,I use it as a game,I PLAY IT.
**

* I see someone just got scared away from ww*

This was never aimed at any particular forumer,not even kayge.I/someone just had to do it finally-it was like a trigger.Turkey,tell me you never thought I aimed it at you. I am not an elitist-btw.I never meant any absolutes.Besides I would never make an avatar out of my IK barb if I dig range so much.Just for clarification IMO range 3 is good,range 4 better,range 5 better still,that certainly doesn't mean absolute.Note, I'll always give exceptions to IK,ribcracker & windhammer.Any other weapon<range 3 isnt suitable for ww.

turkey,you are in my buddy list,I have no hesitation in saying you are an asset to this forum.Unlike others u don't argue-u open up ur book of facts & logic & let others draw conclusions,I'd like to think,I do the same thing in a way but while making some really ugly faces.Thats why I enjoy talking to you.I know u never said ias & range dont matter,and I know u are the last person who would blindly beleive such tests without self testing it.

before going any further-

I titled the thread Futility or pointlessness not Falsehood-Just trying to address the lack of viable benefits of these alternate theories & the aggravating effect its having on the popularity of the skill.I am not trying to force it into anyone's mouth. My idea was to question the point not the accuracy,since to me atleast, it always takes precedence.

First the issue we seem to concur at:

HIT CHECKS:

Did I ever question the accuracy of the 4-8 frame check theory? No.The test I carried out in actual gameplay after the theories started spreading,was not with the intention to hear the two quick thwacks, it was to understand the immidiate motive,can high damage but lwbp incompatible weapons be used in that way to be fairly & consistently effective? But it wasn't to be.Like many others,I closed the chapter then & there.I had no second thoughts ever since.Call it lazyness or rookieness, but I am not interested in knowing or talking about the rate at which some dying fish empties it lungs.So I am not going to test it,argue it,agree,disagree whatever....

Necessity is the key word here,the base of every research/exploration however trivial it may be is established on an aim/motive or if there is a viable benefit in mind. :spy:

DOD idea is moot.Moreover, in 1.1 there are loads of lwbp weapons from the very elite & expensive to the effective yet affordable.Who can't afford some perfect gems for bonehew?This has been covered to death,so I'll cut it short.

Now the one, which i see no end to:

RANGE:

Turkey, if range is given preference to cb,I dont think it immidiately means a trade off.Thats all I gotta say-U can manage cb elsewhere like u already said :cheesy: Besides,u know it, one needs to supplement cb with raw damage especially so in larger games.See... u unintentionally confused someone up here with ur range/cb argument.

besides didn't I make exceptions with ik,ribcracker,windhammer.Are there any more that I missed,Are their any range 1 or range 2 weapons with such high cb and raw damage?.

if you are trying to dispell the myth that "there is a mathematical relationship between range and ias"-if at all there is a myth,I am with you. Since regardless of range a weapon cannot attack faster than what is allowed at the bp.I know that well.

Got to say this now.My arguments on hit frequency isn't on mathemetical or game code grounds."The ability to hit monsters from further away" argument is simplistic but when u rub it & analyse it deeply,by playing and applying logic,u'll understand more.

The dynamic nature of targets is not an argument against range-infact it is for range and against the test conditions/arguments which prove otherwise-the way I see it.

This is one of the reasons why I always feel & know why long range weapons perform better on hit frequency/radius benchmarks.:

I'll walk u thru this:

- Before barbs start their whirl they readjust their position so they cover as many monsters as possible.(generally)
- But the number of hits they end up landing is never at par with what they expected due to the dynamic nature of targets.That is,some monsters are in ur range while checks occur and get hit as a result but some that u thought u'll manage to land hits on, have moved out of range while u pass through adjacent to them,which results in missed checks.Meaning, you could have managed to hit them with a bit more reach. To sum up the difference between long range & short range weapons-

The difference in range lies in the disparity in the hits to missed checks ratio generally & not in particular areas/monsters where/which line up nicely such that there is hardly any chance of missed checks regardless of range.

To simplify:With long range weapons,u will land more hits on flesh & less on air in comparison to short range weapons in general gameplay & not in particular area or against certain monsters formations.Thats why we feel,observe that long range weapons hit more, in general gameplay. The reason isn't mathemetical or absolute by any means.

The longer range simply ensures that less checks are wasted.The difference however becomes evident over time in fewer whirls to finish off crowds.

Plus I know,that long range weapons allow target(s) to be in range for more check(s) for that slight extra time/frames than short range weapons.Perhaps a hit more on the way in & the way out. besides,isn't that too obvious?It has implications in PVP as well as PVM,against high life but lesser in number monsters like frenzy minos whom u often find either in small packs or as loners.

Agreed,barb has the ability to put targets where he intends to but thats when another important factor time comes in.How much damage can a long range whirler dish out while the cb-low range whirler is busy foul-mouthing the screen? Trust me I am a variety preacher & loath the idea of watching a spinning human pinball bouncing around the screen. Besides the long range whirler can do the same thing.. but when the situation actually demands it.This is just a wider efficiency/effectiveness argument.I understand, there is no rule that one should sacrifice playstyle/variety for efficiency or time.I realise,in the end, its all upto the player.

Plus there are the added advantages in skirting,as already covered above.

On a side note an indirect benefit of range is affordability,if u allign range with 2h weapons.price of two botd zerks or botd/doom>botd gpa.
---------------------------------
CONCLUSION-OUR GUIDE:

We will include what deserves to be included-if we feel players are bound to benefit from it,its in.You saw what happened above -these "intimidating" theories/pointless arguments scare away prospective players from ww.

We will provide all information which we feel is meaningful, helpful to the readers.Though,Gui,thats one thing we dont want the guide to be-rigid.

Trust me, we have something up our sleeves in entirely new & fun whirl technique which will utilise range & slow r/w speed.have paitience.We are humbled with the anticipation. :uhhuh:

In order to speed up the work,I'll have to do what puma is doing i.e resist my urge to come here.

rIK

 

[acceleration turkey]

i can dig it :thumbsup:

to speak to a few things, as far as intimidating and scaring people, this thread isnt the guide, so it doesnt need to be user friendly...the point of you guys doing the work to make the guide is to refer people to it. scientists dont have to keep notes that the public can understand, but when they present their findings to the media and general public, the work has to be condensed and easy to understand (not that we are scientists, but you get the analogy). by having a thorough discussion now, a conside report can be produced that details what the player needs to know.

i will say though that WW is the one attack skill out of all the barb's main attack skills which is the most easy to do poorly and the hardest to do really well. so i think it deserves discussion. because it is a cool skill and people may end up saving themselves from wasting time by using WW with an upgraded bonesnap and getting no hits.

i enjoy talking about this game. when i played counter strike and my friend ran a server, we would clear it out late and night and password it so that we could do bullet damage tests will all the guns, at varying ranges, on various parts of the body, with and without armor, and through obstacles. needless to say, we logged a lot of data when we could have otherwise just been estimating and playing the game. i also logged precise reload times for every gun in CS. i enjoy the information and mechanics of games and harvesting those details. diablo 2 is a game where people are required to come together to produce data, because it is fairly complicated, at least i think it is. so what i am trying to say is, for the casual reader, dont freak out if you see people like me going on and on. some people like to discuss details even if the conclusions dont have large in-game application.

rik, i understand your 'dynamic environment' argument, and in fact i considered in my post that 'dynamic' may not have been the best word to choose for the reasons you outlined. a dynamic environment is a changing enviroment, as you said, and higher range makes you more able to handle the change. what i meant by dynamic is changeable rather than changing, but the environment is both ultimately. as far as taking the time to cuss out monsters, i almost never hit a monster which is not both cursed and stunned. for reasons that i have revealed before, i still manage to kill fast with all that casting...warcry drops killing time for me in the long run, especially against fierce melee monsters. :winner:. the phenomenon i am referring to does not appear to be present at the lurker lounge, but RTB would know for sure. i think he reads and posts there. perhaps it is widely known and i did not discover anything new.

anyway, good luck writing. i didnt feel singled out... i feel it is a worthy project and i think you guys are providing a great forum resource. :thumbsup:. looking forward to the final cut.

 

[xpumafangx]

Well on my duel wirler I am thinking about doing some thing. Where I have a low runwalk and a high ias on my weapons with at least a range of 3. I do not think there is any thing new to this ideal. But basicly I wanted to mix crushing blow with a large amount of open wounds. I have some other ideals but I would like to test them out before I actly talk about them.

 

[Loca`ne]

In all honesty, in pvp it's a much harder environment to test with.

for one bvb you score so few hits that it's hard to see the range of 5 working for it often enough for any conclusive evidence.

for two bvcaster the casters take one or two hits they go down anyway.

I've been whirling with barbs sence before the xpac came out and I've always enjoyed how userfriendly it is. I never 'mastered' it until I started coming to these forums and saw just how diverse stratagies were. The use of skirting, boxing or even howl/taunt/whirl was completely foriegn to me. I used to just whirl back and forth because that's how I thought it was done.

To my credit I had figured out that quick short back and forth whirls in tightly packed mobs was prefferable sometimes, with out the aid of the forums ;D

WW will always be one of those skills, as some of you have already stated, that some just do, others do horribly, and a few do really well.

Loca

 

[rikstaker1]

Hold on...

I think u guys got the impression ,the sections I listed above are complete. no:These are just the contents,we are spending some quality & quantity time with our barbs,jolting down points on our observations,we arent testing for technical stuff on bp,range & dualwield,we are testing for the effectiveness of certain weapon/gear setups in pvp & pvm.We are working on a guide not a report.The term testing is somewhat misleading here.Its not that I am scared of technical stuff.In fact I'll discuss it as long as I see reason.With turkey-its a totally different story.

Puma is sniffing out the effectiveness of dualwield ow oriented builds in pvp.While, I am systematicaly examining slow r/w factor with range 3+ weapons & heavy armors while exploring new whirl techs in pvm.

Those are just some of the things we are examining,plus as said earlier,we are grading lwbp weapons in a sort of rank system-based on damage,range,bonus mods,affordability & looks .A special preferential/weighted average-which will be clearly stated in the final cut,will determine the weapons class/rank.So.. all criteria are treated on grounds of merit.But like already said-there are separate sections for dualwield,2h,wep shield-so u wont see 2h weapons graded against 1h. We wont preech absolutes-each of the above setups has it own strengths/weaknesses-so expect no cross-comparison.

The paper work has just barely begun-we took a month just to chalk out everything & gather the necessary gear.Its a huge project-obviously,its like multiple guides in one.Plus our sked is hectic to say the least.

So-no more revelations from us now(Puma.. I'm locked up tight)-we are getting to work-if anyone feels something should be included let us know.

rIK

*Turkey,check your pm*

 

[Loca`ne]

I'm not taking anything for granted here... I'm just discussing a baba attack which I've been using for over 4 years now (on and off) while I'm no expert at it by any means I'd like to think I have some game play experience to draw off of

either way, I'm not arguing with anyone, just discussing a favored subject

 

[mstrnicegui]

...that some just do, others do horribly, and a few do really well.

I fall into the category of those that just do it. :lol:

Ok, no more corny jokes for me, I'll go crawl back into my hole now.

 

[RTB]

Note, I'll always give exceptions to IK,ribcracker & windhammer.Any other weapon<range 3 isnt suitable for ww.

I have to disagree. There are more weapons that work with WW, but cannot be considered end-game weapons, because of lack of dmg, or range. I play SP, which means no boosts at all. I can't go leech in baal runs, so I can't use my end-game equipment without ever having to resort to other set-ups.
Bloodletter works fine, since I don't have to care for desynch, I can be sure I can hit a target with just range 1. Lack of dmg is what this weapon suffers.
Imagine playing untwinked SP, how would you handle a WWer? Without easy access to the big guns, you're gonna have to find a weapon decent enough for WW.

besides didn't I make exceptions with ik,ribcracker,windhammer.Are there any more that I missed,Are their any range 1 or range 2 weapons with such high cb and raw damage?.

Rune Master Ettin Axe, Heaven's Light Mighty Scepter. While not quite as powerful, these can work.

I will continue my post later. Now, I've got a movie to watch :evil: