Fire Avenger

prexus said:
Why Magnus'? 100ar? Why not use LoH (for PvM) or Lavagouts for the +fire damage that will become much more with conviction figures out?
Cheers,
Prexus

Magnus' Skin or Bloodfist for PvP
LoH for PvM

Lavagout does add damage, but not enough to be enhanced by conviction...but this is up to you. I believe the added damage to demons provided by these gloves would be invaluable versus bosses since they fall into the category of demons....

Also, I do wonder how a Sazabi sword would do with Vengeance and Conviction versus bosses. Does the 318% damage to demons get calculated before the damage added by Vengeance versus demons and bosses?
 
Considering that, I'd rather use the redeemer. More damage, + pala skills and other better bonuses. What makes magnus skin superior? the +~200ish AR after enchant? And the problem with using bloodfist is that I'd be missing 10% IAS which means another 15IAS/x jewel which won't be that good. Maybe a rare crafted with life/res/IAS?
Cheers,
Prexus

EDIT: I calculated and my final damage with phase blade is roughly 1250-1550 (before PvP pnalty). Which won't make the cut for PvP, so could this build be viable? Can someone else check the math? If it wouldn't be viable because of low damage (even tho I didn't calculate the -res from conviction)
Please help me figure out if I should begin collecting stuff for it?
Prexus
 
prexus said:
Considering that, I'd rather use the redeemer. More damage, + pala skills and other better bonuses. What makes magnus skin superior? the +~200ish AR after enchant? And the problem with using bloodfist is that I'd be missing 10% IAS which means another 15IAS/x jewel which won't be that good. Maybe a rare crafted with life/res/IAS?
Cheers,
Prexus

Magnus' Skin offers 100 to AR and would be useful in PvP. Many PvP set-ups include these gloves. If you would be short IAS from using Bloodfist, then these would be the way to go.

LoH would be an excellent choice for PvM as they enhance the damage dealt to demons. A great quantity of monsters (including bosses) fall into this category.

Using a Demonlimb to pre-buff with lvl 23 Enchant eliminates the need to use Lavagout. Demonlimbs are easy to acquire...many people disregard them as trash. I however do not consider them to be.

Crafted gloves can certainly do the trick...provided you have the resources and patience to craft a worthy pair. It will take you a very long time to craft something of value. Also, consult the Crafted Items page on the Arreat Summit to determine the optimal level for crafting high quality items.

The ilvl of a Crafted Item is equal to half the level of the crafting character (rounded down) plus half the ilvl of the input item (rounded down). Put another way: ilvl = int(.5 * clvl) + int(.5 * ilvl).

This means that to craft a high quality pair of Blood Gloves you would need to find a pair of Magic Vampirebone Gloves and begin crafting around level 90:

ilvl = (.5*90)+(.5*47) ---> 45+23= 68

At ilvls 51-70, there's an 80% chance of 3 affixes and a 20% chance of 4 affixes. This is something that can prove to be quite worthwhile...I however do not have the patience for such an endeavor.

Also, the Redeemer is a painfully slow weapon. As is the Sazabi sword...I was only contemplating the effectiveness of the "% damage to demons" mod and its use with the Vengeance attack. I would not use it...

I hope I did not confuse you!
 
I understand, and it looks good!
Now my only problem is that it dosen't look effective enough to be good in PvP. Can anyone prove me wrong / shjow me ways to make it more effective? I was thinking again about using a caddy and trying hit it 9 FPA instead of 8. Over 5 seconds (120 frames) 8FPA will hit 15 times while 9FPA will do 13. IMHO, 2 hits over 5 sconds dosen't justify loosing more damage AND possible +3 vengence +3 conviction. To hit 9FPA with a caddy means I need 60 IAS that's fairly easy to get: 33% (HoJ) + 20% (Magnus') +20% (Highlords if I won't get Maras) or +15 (IAs jewel). That leaves me with 0.4 less attacks per second, but with higher damage and more stat points to put into resist (if I get the +2/3 conviction and +2/3 Vengence) Wouldn't it be a much better option? A zerker won't do because it needs much more IAS to hit 10 fpa, but if I won't be able to find a caddy I can use a scourge - same avg. damage, same speed and always 4os. What do you think now?
Cheers,
Prexus
 
All I can say is your HoJ Phaseblade is definatly abnormally low. How much have you put into the synergies and Vengeance...? You should hit 2k ele dmg at least I think.

EDIT: That's also WITHOUT adding the 500 fire dmg from Holy Fire...
 
prexus said:
I understand, and it looks good!
Now my only problem is that it dosen't look effective enough to be good in PvP. Can anyone prove me wrong / shjow me ways to make it more effective? I was thinking again about using a caddy and trying hit it 9 FPA instead of 8. Over 5 seconds (120 frames) 8FPA will hit 15 times while 9FPA will do 13. IMHO, 2 hits over 5 sconds dosen't justify loosing more damage AND possible +3 vengence +3 conviction. To hit 9FPA with a caddy means I need 60 IAS that's fairly easy to get: 33% (HoJ) + 20% (Magnus') +20% (Highlords if I won't get Maras) or +15 (IAs jewel). That leaves me with 0.4 less attacks per second, but with higher damage and more stat points to put into resist (if I get the +2/3 conviction and +2/3 Vengence) Wouldn't it be a much better option? A zerker won't do because it needs much more IAS to hit 10 fpa, but if I won't be able to find a caddy I can use a scourge - same avg. damage, same speed and always 4os. What do you think now?
Cheers,
Prexus

Another thing to consider Prexus (have enjoyed the banter back and forth BTW...you too Rane!) is the HIGH cost of repairing rune words. I have a Beast Caddy that costs 400K to repair when only half its durability is spent. A Phase Blade is INDESTRUCTIBLE and it is a speedy weapon. I think speed over power is a better way to play it.

Also, finding this Caddy will take quite some time...you may wish to make a HoJ Phase Blade until such time as this ultimate base weapon for HoJ materializes. Phase Blades are so incredibly easy to find...and finding one with the appropriate number of sockets is not that difficult either. Also, there is a formula for adding sockets to items that you can use as Larzuk will give the PB six sockets. The formula is as follows:

1 Ral Rune + 1 Amn Rune + 1 Perfect Amethyst + Normal Weapon = Socketed Weapon of same type

The number of sockets created will vary. The item must be normal and unsocketed. Low-quality items and superior items do not work. The item gets 1-6 sockets, randomly.

However, the number of sockets is then restricted by the maximum number of sockets that base item with that ilvl can have. For example, if you have an item that can only have 2 sockets, there's a 5/6 chance of getting 2 sockets and a 1/6 chance of getting 1 socket.

Since the runes and items used to create a potential 4 socket Phase Blade are COMMON, you will have a much easier time making HoJ from this base weapon.
 
My build:
20 Vengence
20 Resist Fire
20 Salvation
10 Conviction
My items:
Shako, Maras, HoJ (3 vengece caddy), GA, HoZ, Magnus', BK, Raven, Verdungo's and War Travs. As many skillers as I can get (calculated with none)
The + to vengence is 2+2+4+1+4+1=14. the + to the rest is 9
with pre-reqs, meditation, vigor, redemption and holy shield I used 88 skill points. Now for PvP mainly, should I work on holy shield or on resist skills?
I'm now begining to caculate my damage for Cadaceus. I'm doing all of my steps here, so if I make mistakes you will correct them.
Caddy Damage = 37 to 43
HoJ ED: 280 - 330 (Avg. 305)
New damage is 37*3.05 to 40*3.05 = 112 to 131
Add the + damage from war travs: 127 to 156
Now to calculate my elemental damage (for this one the caddy is +3 Vengence with no bonus to conviction, every point there will give me better damage to vengence via +resist skills)
Vengence Bonus (max holy shield) is +508% Fire +308% Lightning +308% Cold - total of +
Vengence Bonus (max resists - 10 each, with less points in conviction [will get skillers to fill the gap, I want to get the perf 95/95/95 in fire/light/cold]) is +508% Fire +388% Lightning +388% Cold
Damage after Vengence with Holy Shield is +1124%ED
127*11.24 to 156*11.24 = 1427 to 1753
Damage after Vengence with Max Res route is +1284%ED
127*12.84 to 156*12.84 = 1630 to 2003
Now to add bonus from HoJ: 1009-1078 to damage
Damage after Holy Fire with Holy Shield route is:
2436 to 2831
Damage after Holy Fire with Max Res route is:
2639 to 3081
Now to add in the PvP penalty:
Damage after PvP penalty with Holy Shield route is:
2436/6 to 2831/6 = 406 to 471
Damage after PvP penalty with Max Res route is:
2639/6 to 3081/6 = 439 to 513
Now considering max res fire (95%) and no stacking, the attack will do 1.55 of it's listed damage because of conviction:
Damage after Conviction with Holy Shield route is:
406*1.55 to 471*1.55 = 629 to 730
Damage after Conviction with Max Res route is:
439*1.55 to 513*1.55 = 680 to 795

Will it be worth anything in PvP? Did I do the math right? Should I go HS or Max res?
Cheers,
Prexus
 
Another thing I just though about - Is the Holy fire from HoJ (adding about 200 fire damage after pvp penalty and 300 damage with conviction) Worth it instead of using an ebotd zerker? After all, costwise ebotd is ~2.5 runes (zod=0.5, vex=1, ezerker=1) compared to the cost of HoJ that is 4 (Sur=1.5, Lo=1.5, Cham=1)? I'll have MUCH higher base damage, I'll need 50 IAS to hit 8FPA (magnus' and 2 15 ias jewels). Now lets compare it to the max res route: (Avg. EBOTD is 375%ED +50%ED from eth = 425%ED) (all skill bonus is now 10 to all and 12 to combat - shako, maras, hoz, ebotd, GA, BK)
24 to 71
(24 to 71)*1.5(eth)*3.75(avg. EBOTD)= 24*5.625 to 71*5.625 = 135 to 399
now with war travs 150 to 424
Now with Vengence ED (that I know balance out amongst all of them, making it less of a fire avenger... it balances out at 456% each - 20 vengence, 20 each res, 10 conviction, rest in pre-reqs and useful stuff) 456*3=13.78%
150*13.78 to 424*13.78 = 2067 to 5842
PvP penalty: 2067/6 to 5842/6 = 344 to 973
After Conviction bonus: 344*1.55 to 973*1.55 = 533 to 1508
Much better than than the fire avenger route, even tho the fire avenger would less likely be stacked out and/or absorbed.
What do you think? should I walk to path of fire or the path of balance?
Cheers,
Prexus
 
Try in single player on /players 8 to see if it is a strong enough build. This is simple enough to do if you possess a single player character editior. If you do not, it will take some time to test. I do not have the time (at the moment) to do so...but I imagine I could investigate the issue further upon arriving at home.
 
Unfourtunatly I don't have a single player editor, if anyone can send me one to my email or PM me a link to download (if it's legal in the forum, if not I'll edit). I'll rest it in sp, but could anyone tell me if you think this build will be viable (either the fire HoJ, or the balanced EBOTDZ) in PvP and not only PvM?
Cheers,
Prexus
 
prexus said:
Unfourtunatly I don't have a single player editor, if anyone can send me one to my email or PM me a link to download (if it's legal in the forum, if not I'll edit). I'll rest it in sp, but could anyone tell me if you think this build will be viable (either the fire HoJ, or the balanced EBOTDZ) in PvP and not only PvM?
Cheers,
Prexus

Prexus...PM me with pertinent contact information. The primary issue of the balanced EBOTDZ is that it defeats the purpose of this thread. Either one would be viable...Conviction and Vengeance at high level is a devestating attack. Adding another aura to the mix would make it more potent....testing in 8 player games would be adviseable to determine the build's long term viability.
 
I PM'ed you, I am also going to check the effect of using ormus' and nightwing veil (if on the balanced build).
Prexus
 
prexus said:
I PM'ed you, I am also going to check the effect of using ormus' and nightwing veil (if on the balanced build).
Prexus

I got it...it's going to be a while before I can get that information for you...but rest assured you will get it.
 
Could you please contact me and give me the name of the char ediot you use? That way I too will do tests and see what goes.
Prexus
 
PvP takes this thing into a WHOLE new world.

I've been tinkering around with a PvP avenger in my head for quite a while, nothing hard just on paper (or notepad as it would be.) Whatever happens you MUST have max Conviction, you definatly need every part of that -150% res. There are three main routes I've been working with.

1. HoJ Avenger -
This Avenger is the one that has been talked about in this thread and the one I have a PvM version off. To be a serious contender you must take full advantage of the Fire damage you are doing. This means that seeing as you will have at least -170% enemy Fire res, you want to look to particularly enchance this part, ie Ormus, DragonScale, Fire Facets, etc.

2. Famine Avenger -
Using the Famine Runeword this Avenger takes the same approach as the HoJ Avenger, but it's damage sources are more varied. It does more damage to average characters, whilst doing large Fire/Lightning/Cold/Physical

3. EBotD Avenger -
I have been TOLD by several people that this build does indeed do the most damage of any avenger, but I have been sceptical as I think they are speaking of 'character screen damage' and hence do not realise the potential of the other two. It is without a doubt though still powerful.

Honestly I can't say more than, I'm still toying with this idea of a PvP Avenger, and I'll get back to you when I make more progress. All I can say right now is you MUST hit 8fps, otherwise you will be interupted to often and not get any hits in.
 
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