Enigma-Kicker Discussion

[skygoneblue]

Enigma-Kicker Discussion

Well, because Ilkori and I kinda hijacked the kicker weapon thread, I will continue our discusion here. Anyone else with good, constructive ideas is welcome to comment as well!
Just lay out your ideas, plans, and aspirations for your Enigma-Kicker here, and maybe we can all come out better in the end!

Here is what I am planning for skills (and of course, I am open to suggestions):

20 Dragon Flight
20 Dragon Talon
20 Venom (Just for you Speederlaunder! )
20 Fade
1+ Weapon Block (to hit 60% if I go dual claw)
1 Wake of Fire
1 Blade Shield
1 Mind Blast
1+ Shadow Master (rest of points)

For my gear, this is where I am a bit unsure, but here are my ideas:

Head: Shako + UM (maybe Shael for FHR)
Body: Enigma Dusk Shroud (for STR, Teleport, DR)
Gloves: Trangs (FCR and Poison enhancement)
Belt: Arachnid's (cry about Slow, I don't care)
Boots: Shadow Dancers (drool)
Jewelry: Mara's, RavenFrost and Bull Kathos vs casters, Angelics vs melee

Weapon/Shield
Here is where I am having some troubles deciding. Because I am using Fade, I will need a weapon that will hit the -63 point to get the 7FPA intial kick for Dragon Talon.
I did the math last night, and a couple options I have are:
Chaos Runic Talons (-65, good Magic Damage! and OW)
Fury Runic Talons (-70, good AR bonus for melee duels, and OW)
Azurewrath + Shael (-80, I don't think I need to explain)

If I wore Andariel's Visage for a little IAS (and CRAPPY fire resist), I could open up a few more possibilities:
Chaos and Fury Suwayyahs (MUCH easier to find, I'm sure)
Azurewrath + Um (OW instead of IAS from Shael)

Using Chaos and Fury together in Runic Talons would allow me to hit the -63 Dragon Talon breakpoint while using Fade, but finding them in Runic Talons would be the tough part.

Let the discussion begin!

 

[Speederländer]

If you're using enigma, why would you put 20 pts. in flight? You'll almost never use it to begin with and it's really only useful for getting to your target when you do. It doesn't hit often enough or for enough damage to warrant 20 pts. Better to spend them on MB or SM or both.

 

[Elwood]

you forgot to tell us what you're aiming for with this build. mage slayer? all arounder? melee?

 

[skygoneblue]

Well, maxing Shadow Master is never really all that important to me. She provides a suficient distraction with only 1 point, and Shadow skill charms and gear will easily boost her to 17+.
Maxing Mind Blast is the difference between 64-74 damage (with my average setup) and 224-234 damage maxed per cast.
Well, let's do the math that you love to do. 1/6 PvP penalty = 10-11 or 35-37 damage difference. With 50% damage reduction, these numbers easily become 5-6 or 17-18 damage.
I'm sorry, but the difference between those numbers is not worth 20 skills points. I would max Wake of Fire before I would max Mind Blast, and even that is a pretty bad idea.

And even though I have Enigma, I would still use Dragon Flight. The teleport on Enigma would be used to chase fast casting Sorceresses and Necros, while Dragon Flight would be reserved for more of the melee duelers that would be more likely to get stuck in a Wake of FIre/Mind Blast lock. Regardless of whether or not Dragon Flight hits, it still gets me to the enemy reliably when it fires. The only time that it misfires (at least, for me) is when the enemy is off screen or if I click after them, and they have already teleported away, in which case I would be using the normal teleport anyway.

I am not counting on Dragon Flight landing all the time, but I would much rather have a huge landing kick when it DOES connect as opposed to a Mind Blast that does about 12 more damage per cast.

 

[skygoneblue]

you forgot to tell us what you're aiming for with this build. mage slayer? all arounder? melee?

I am going for all around kicker; otherwise I would have said Enigma Mageslayer.

 

[diskoren]

Head: Shako + UM (maybe Shael for FHR)
Body: Enigma Dusk Shroud (for STR, Teleport, DR)
Gloves: Trangs (FCR and Poison enhancement)
Belt: Arachnid's (cry about Slow, I don't care)
Boots: Shadow Dancers (drool)
Jewelry: Mara's, RavenFrost and Bull Kathos vs casters, Angelics vs melee

I think a crafted caster belt with at least 7%fcr would be better. You dont have to go with the slow (yes, i cry about such), you lose a +skill, but can gain life, fhr, str, and other nice mods. And yeah, you hit the same bp, 27.

Also, i agree with Speederländer, having maxd dflight seems rather useless.

And btw, afaik, %AR from weapons doesnt work with kicks, so fury is rather useless, except for the ow and ias.

diskoren

 

[Speederländer]

Well, maxing Shadow Master is never really all that important to me. She provides a suficient distraction with only 1 point, and Shadow skill charms and gear will easily boost her to 17+.
Maxing Mind Blast is the difference between 64-74 damage (with my average setup) and 224-234 damage maxed per cast.
Well, let's do the math that you love to do. 1/6 PvP penalty = 10-11 or 35-37 damage difference. With 50% damage reduction, these numbers easily become 5-6 or 17-18 damage.
I'm sorry, but the difference between those numbers is not worth 20 skills points. I would max Wake of Fire before I would max Mind Blast, and even that is a pretty bad idea.

And even though I have Enigma, I would still use Dragon Flight. The teleport on Enigma would be used to chase fast casting Sorceresses and Necros, while Dragon Flight would be reserved for more of the melee duelers that would be more likely to get stuck in a Wake of FIre/Mind Blast lock. Regardless of whether or not Dragon Flight hits, it still gets me to the enemy reliably when it fires. The only time that it misfires (at least, for me) is when the enemy is off screen or if I click after them, and they have already teleported away, in which case I would be using the normal teleport anyway.

I am not counting on Dragon Flight landing all the time, but I would much rather have a huge landing kick when it DOES connect as opposed to a Mind Blast that does about 12 more damage per cast.

Mind blast at high levels is not desirable for the damage so much as the increased duration. There are tricks to be had with high level MB and SM when teleoprting that are not widely used or talked about. There are techniques that take advantage of the swirlie duration.

And, it's casters that are more likely to get caught in Wake/MB lock, not melee. If you do it right.

 

[squigipapa]

Mind blast at high levels is not desirable for the damage so much as the increased duration. There are tricks to be had with high level MB and SM when teleoprting that are not widely used or talked about. There are techniques that take advantage of the swirlie duration.

And, it's casters that are more likely to get caught in Wake/MB lock, not melee. If you do it right.

Ok, well then let's talk about them then.

AFIK, when using a shadow master with a high level mind blast and teleport, A LOT of the time when you teleport to someone your shadow master will automatically cast mind blast. Meaning that you have a left mouse attack ready, you teleport with your right mouse and your shadow auto MB's for you, meaning that your opponent is stunned and the second you teleport you're able to immediatly attack with your left click.

This is something along the lines of what you were talking about right ?

 

[Speederländer]

Ok, well then let's talk about them then.

AFIK, when using a shadow master with a high level mind blast and teleport, A LOT of the time when you teleport to someone your shadow master will automatically cast mind blast. Meaning that you have a left mouse attack ready, you teleport with your right mouse and your shadow auto MB's for you, meaning that your opponent is stunned and the second you teleport you're able to immediatly attack with your left click.

This is something along the lines of what you were talking about right ?

Well, almost. I've got this outlined in my posting history from about 6 months ago. Yes, the SM mindblasts when you teleport. Sort of an auto-aim but not. In any event, the idea is to allow your SM to MB for you while you teleport and drop traps. It's the combination of the freedom to trap and a long swirlie duration (need high level SM and MB) that makes it possible to catch very fast/skilled teleporters.

Also, it's been observed that the SM tends to emphasize those skills you have more points in. We have only observation on this but it seems to hold up. If I have a high level SM and maxed MB, my SM mindblasts like mad. So much so that when doing baal runs I have to get rid of her because all she does is convert monsters all day long.

 

[skygoneblue]

Well, almost. I've got this outlined in my posting history from about 6 months ago. Yes, the SM mindblasts when you teleport. Sort of an auto-aim but not. In any event, the idea is to allow your SM to MB for you while you teleport and drop traps. It's the combination of the freedom to trap and a long swirlie duration (need high level SM and MB) that makes it possible to catch very fast/skilled teleporters.

Also, it's been observed that the SM tends to emphasize those skills you have more points in. We have only observation on this but it seems to hold up. If I have a high level SM and maxed MB, my SM mindblasts like mad. So much so that when doing baal runs I have to get rid of her because all she does is convert monsters all day long.

Well that is certainly interesting, and worth a try I suppose!
When I duel, I haven't noticed my SM Mind Blasting much at all. She usually runs straight in for a melee attack, and she has even killed a few sorcs doing either a normal attack or Dragon Claw (not sure which - I was too busy laughing).

Even if you don't like the idea of maxing Dragon Flight, with this kind of a build, I would have plenty of room to do it.

20 Dragon Talon
20 Dragon Flight
20 Venom
20 Fade
20 Mind Blast

It would require a high level, obviously, but it is possible.

One problem I am forseeing is resists. I am a big Chains of Honor user, and I love having my maxed resists in Hell.
Even with Fade, Mara's, and other good resist items (not including charms), I don't think max resists in Hell are going to be obtained easily.

Any ideas (other than charms)?

 

[Speederländer]

When I duel, I haven't noticed my SM Mind Blasting much at all. She usually runs straight in for a melee attack, and she has even killed a few sorcs doing either a normal attack or Dragon Claw (not sure which - I was too busy laughing).

You have to constrain her from doing anything else (other than perhaps DF) by teleporting. The idea is that she mindblasts the opponent you are chasing via teleport. That's why this is a trick best used by anti-caster builds. You also seem to need very high level MB. As I stated, there is at least some consensus that the SM mindblasts more when you have a high level MB. And you need both high level in any event to get the swirlie duration at the highest possible point, enabling easier stun through your opponent hitting a trap you've dropped.

 

[skygoneblue]

Ok, while I certainly understand what you're saying, and appreciate your input, I have heard that the Mind Blast "stun length" doesn't existing in PvP. Meaning that the enemy will get the same stun effect regardless of the Mind Blast level, but he/she will not have the swirly effect of a lasting stun. Are you absolutely sure that the stun length increases in PvP?

 

[flapserdk]

Instead of maxing DF I prefer a strong SM. An lvl 17 SM is only a decoy, and will die instantly. My kicker has an lvl 37 SM, and I just love her. She is still a decoy, but she can take some serious beating before she dies, and give me some valuable seconds to plan my next move.
A strong SM is very handy when you fight a powerful FoH pala, because your SM will theoretically take 50 % of the hits, and the same goes when you fight a trapper (50 % FoH damage reduction is a nice thing).

I have tried max DF and and low lvl DF, and I can’t notice any difference in hit frequency, so my humble opinion is that max DF is a waste of point, but always worth a few.

If you use Andariel's Visage with 15 % IAS jewel, you can also use Fleshripper (Shael).

Just recently I started some experiment with Wizard Spike (Um), and the result are so good that I almost use Wizard Spike/SS all the time. With Trang gloves and Wizzy I reach 11 FPS, and that makes my lvl 24 MB very effective. I have no trouble hitting fast tele chars with MB, and one hit with MB and I have sufficient time to land a DF.

You don’t need to max MB, but more points increase the stun length, and that gives you more time to use DF with success.

Why max Fade?

If you use Shako/SS you have 45 % DR, and after lvl 16 Fade you need 2 points to raise your resist with 1 %. You only need lvl 15 Fade with SS and Andariel’s Visage to reach 50 % DR.

Even with Shael in your Shako, you need 66 % FHR to reach 86 % (4 FPS)- that’s a lot of small 5 % FHR charms. Without 86 % FHR you will be toasted by any skilled Trapper with MB.

Summery:

-Less point in DF and Fade
-Max SM

But no matter what you do, you will get a nasty assskicker.

 

[Speederländer]

Ok, while I certainly understand what you're saying, and appreciate your input, I have heard that the Mind Blast "stun length" doesn't existing in PvP. Meaning that the enemy will get the same stun effect regardless of the Mind Blast level, but he/she will not have the swirly effect of a lasting stun. Are you absolutely sure that the stun length increases in PvP?

I'm not saying stun length increases. Hit recovery animation is a function of your FHR. I'm saying the duation of the effect of mindblast increases. The OPPORTUNITY to stun has a longer duration. The length of time the swirlies from MB exist over your head (which only indicate MB has hit you, not that you are stunned in this case) is a function of the level of the mindblast.

 

[Elwood]

Originally Posted by skygoneblue
I am going for all around kicker; otherwise I would have said Enigma Mageslayer.

oh. well touchy touchy.

anyways, as for resists, imo a 2 socket coa is far superior to a shako. a 15ias/15res jewel will help with resists and allow you to put that much needed um into you're azurewrath. it has fhr too! how convenient. that's 3 birds with one stone.

if you're aiming for all around, you'll have a much easier time against decent melee builds with c/s. also i think using wizardspike + lidless on switch (especially against casters) is a wise decision. with lidless you can ultimately switch out the trangs for dracs (even more ow! sweet). keep the wizzy and lidless on until you're in close, and if you max out shadow master and mind blast (which is what i think you should do, forget dflight), your shadow master will probably mb the target, and you shall proceed to lay waste upon thy foes (lay out the wofs, dflight in etc etc).

i have more to say about your stuff but short on time, i'll post later

 

[skygoneblue]

Hahah, it was meant as a joke. Sorry it seemed "touchy touchy"!

Thanks for all the ideas guys! They're helping a lot! :clap:

 

[skygoneblue]

Well guys, after reading all your ideas, I have a "revised" list of what I would do with my kicker. See what you think!

20 Dragon Talon
20 Venom
20 Shadow Master
20 Mind Blast (if it really works like SL says)
1+ Weapon Block
1 Wake of Fire
1 Blade Shield

Will use Burst of Speed as main "aura"

Vs Melee:
Shako/Andys (probably Andy, but not sure)
Enigma
Lacerator
Stormshield
Trangs or Drac's
Verdungo's or Arach (would use Arach with Shako or Verdungo with Andy's so that I'm not going over 50% DR)
Shadow Dancers
Angelic's Amulet and Rings x 2
2x +3 Shadow Claws on Switch

Vs Caster:
Shako + UM
Enigma
Wizardspike + Lidless Wall
- or -
Chaos + Jade (for weapon block, magic damage, and open wounds)
Trang's
Arach
Shadow Dancers
Mara's
Ravenfrost/Dwarf Star/Wisp, etc

I'm still unsure as to whether I should pursue MA GCs or Shadow GCs. I figure that a mix will probably be best, but I can't decide.

Any more input would be really appreciated! Thanks guys!

 

[Speederländer]

Vs Caster:
Shako + UM
Enigma
Wizardspike + Lidless Wall
- or -
Chaos + Jade (for weapon block, magic damage, and open wounds)
Trang's
Arach
Shadow Dancers
Mara's
Ravenfrost/Dwarf Star/Wisp, etc

I'm still unsure as to whether I should pursue MA GCs or Shadow GCs. I figure that a mix will probably be best, but I can't decide.

Shadow GCs are much preferable to MA GCs.

Also, you need more fast cast in C-C mode for the anti-caster configuration. 65 FC is the key. On ladder I go trangs + arach + griffons. Socket the griffons with a cham so you can wear whatever rings you need. On non-ladder your BEST bet is to get a valk but you can also go the trang + arach + griffons thing. I assume your using fade in caster mode (except vs. bone necs and perhaps hammer pallys w/o heavy charge/smite). Your missing some kick breakpoints.

 

[prospectz]

You dont need high MB. Most casters have very low FHR, and ones that do have higher FHR are still easy to stun lock. For casters just put a pile of WoF's infront of you so that you are within range to MB. I usually do this in a corner so they are forced into the area where your traps are. Once you see them mindblast and 90% of the time they will get locked and are an easy kill.

Also as for maxing dflight, I personally do so since its easier to just chase and dflight someone rather than tricking them into a stunlock. It save times with all those nubby sorcs when you can just kill them in a hit or too with a dflight .

My personal suggestion is too Max Claw Mastery if you want to be all around. Its incredibly hard/nearly impossible to kill decent pallys and barbs with just kicks since your damage is a lot lower aswell as AR and Defense. They are also incredibly hard to stun lock since most have max FHR and you cant try to tank them because of the defense differences. So ya if you want to kill all classes I suggest being hybrid thats what I am.

 

[prospectz]

also 2 5/5 pos CoA > Shako. Try to find a 10dr one with good res, since the dr is low it should be fairly cheap. Its semes like you are focusing on too much + skills to me, just prebuff your venom and use good equipment. Use tgods or dungos instead of arachnids, for armor I use guardian for casters