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Vessel of Hatred

Dragon Claw Assassins

R

Retro

New member
Dec 11, 2006
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Dragon Claw Assassins

Are they any good? Well I can't seem to find a decent guide about DClaw Sin. Currently I'm building on one, with 10 DClaw, 5 Weapon Block, and 5 Claw Mastery, the rest prereqs. One thing I noticed about this skill is that the speed is sooooo slow.
 
Are you using BoS? Most Dragon Claw builds I have seen use charges, usually associated with Phoenix Strikers.
 
It was good in 1.09... but then they took away the uninterruptible part of it and made Dragon Talon much cooler.
 
I agree with Ilkori. DClaw has mostly entered Deviant territory at this point. It just doesn't have the damage output, in my estimation, to make up for its drawbacks (no shield, interruptable, nothing really special about it).

I tried a DClaw Assassin a couple of months ago and I mostly just found it boring and monotonous. In my opinion, the best use of DClaw is for a huge AR boost when releasing charges on a dual-claw FoF/CoT/BoI build.
 
is it interruptable??... I always thought it's uninterruptable... and even then it seemed weak to me...:tongue:
 
dosent it release the charges on both claws? like, i always thought if you finished say, a tiger strike, from a dragon claw it used the claw damage instead of boot damage, and twice. im probably wrong tho, but id be curious to know
 
Ah, I see. So what are the staple skills for a sin to have good damage and good crowd control?
 
adecoy said:
dosent it release the charges on both claws? like, i always thought if you finished say, a tiger strike, from a dragon claw it used the claw damage instead of boot damage, and twice. im probably wrong tho, but id be curious to know
Click to expand...
The description makes it sound like that's the case, but it's not. You release all charges on the first attack that hits, and only once, no matter what.

Retro said:
Ah, I see. So what are the staple skills for a sin to have good damage and good crowd control?
Click to expand...
Psychic Hammer, Cloak of Shadows, and Mind Blast are the no-brainer crowd control skills (all 1-point wonders). As far as damage goes... in the MA tree, Phoenix is probably the best killer, although DTalon and Tiger/DTail kill really well in Hell, too (and they're safer/easier, for my money).

In the Shadow tree, Shadow Master is really the only thing capable of killing, and even that's not fantastic. Warrior can kill, too, if you devote a lot of time and energy to it, but both shadows are mostly just supplemental damage and an added distraction. Venom can also deal decent damage in Hell, but it's a support skill rather than a primary killer. In other words, pure Shadow builds are strictly deviant material, and not great standalone killers.

In the trap tree, Death Sentry, Lightning Sentry, and Fireblast are the best killers. Blade Fury also deserves mention for insane utility- I'm convinced that an Assassin could potentially beat the game with just 7 assigned skill points (1 in BFury, 1 in all prereqs, 1 in Psychic Hammer/CoS/Mind Blast) and good gear. BFury basically lets you strafe with any weapon in the game. Very nice, if you've got good gear backing it up.



 
SSoG said:
The description makes it sound like that's the case, but it's not. You release all charges on the first attack that hits, and only once, no matter what.
Click to expand...

oh ok, does it use the weapon damage tho?



 
wow, so a 3 combo tiger strike must do massive massive damage then with that finisher huh?
 
Actually, no. The reason for this is rather frustrating, actually. In the time it takes you to charge up 3 Tiger swirls, you could have kept attacking. Tiger has no ED while charging. Your best bet it to stay constantly attacking with Dragon Claw until they drop.

Leaving the skill at one point and using it as a finisher for elemental (area of effect) skills is typically its best use.
 
Do you want a pure Dragon Claw Assassin? Meaning using Dragon Claw on left click and using it as main attack. I am no Assassin expert but I am an expert of the above build. She is an all actuality a Frenzy Assassin with lower damage and higher attack rate.

20 Dragon Claw Main Attack Left Click
20 Claw Mastery
20 Fade
20 Venom
All one point wonders and then invest a few in Weapon Block or Summon.

Helm Guillaume's Face Deadly 15 Crushing 35 (Shimmering Jewel Of Speed)
Duress Wire Fleece 15 Crushing 33 Open Wounds
Gore Riders 10 Open Wounds 15 Crushing 15 Deadly
Dual upped Bartucs (2 Shimmering Jewels Of Speed)
Highlord's Wrath About 25 Deadly At Level 80
Verdungo's
Raven
Dwarf Star
Dracul's or Trang's (Lets Say Dracul's) 25% Open Wounds

So you have level 27 Dragon Claw 190 damage 690 attack
Level 25 Claw Mastery 270 attack 131 damage
Level 25 Fade
Level 25 Venom

Totals

6 Frame Attack (You have to use Burst of Speed to reach the 5 frame max. Your Choice.)
321% Damage
960% Attack Rate (In other words 20,000 Attack Rate without even trying)
Open Wounds 68%
Crushing Blow 65%
Deadly Strike 55% At Level 80
Critical Strike 22%
Venom 600
Resists At About 40 In Hell
Damge Reduced By 40%
Life Leech 14-19% and Life Tap
Cold and Fire Absorb
15 Magic Damage Reduced
Block 50%-55%

So you need to max your resists with charms. Then throw in Shadow Skillers or Sharp/Fine/Craftmenship or whatever you can afford.

The above build can beat the game with ease just running up to monsters and point click until dead. With Charms to stack resists she can do the Ubers Solo as she is one of the few builds that will have enough attack rate to achieve 85% plus chance to hit. She's almost as good as a Kicker for Uber's.

Your looking at about 2000 average damage and 600 Venom per Claw. 3000 1000 with a Rich Mans charms. With 68% Open Wounds, 65% Crushing Blow, and a Red Bulb that always fills.

I took this build to Guardian in Hardcore Single Player Untwinked with lesser gear like Malice and Strength Greater Talons, Goblin Toe, Death's Belt and Gloves along with the Armor and Helm. Iv'e also played her with the far above Godly setup in Hardcore and could Solo Players 5 good enough.
 
adecoy said:
wow, so a 3 combo tiger strike must do massive massive damage then with that finisher huh?
Click to expand...
Nope. Here's an example. Let's say that your 3-hit Tiger Strike adds 1500% ED (slvl 21). Let's also say that you have 150% ED from Dragon Claw (slvl 21 again), and 200% ED from your strength and dex (about 130 strength and 130 dex). Let's also say that you deal 100 average damage with each claw (~200% ED Runic Talons), have an 8-frame Tiger Strike, and a 6-frame Dragon Claw (dual Runics with 50% IAS). We'll also use a 100% chance to hit (just to make the numbers easier).

If you go Tiger/Tiger/Tiger/Dragonclaw, it will take 36 frames (8 per tiger * 3 tigers = 24 + 12 for a two-claw Dragon Claw). You will deal 300 damage from the first Tiger (base damage + 200% ED from str/dex), 300 from the second Tiger, 300 from the 3rd Tiger, and then 1850 from the first hit of Dragon Claw and 450 from the second hit of Dragon Claw. The total damage for that time is 3200 over 36 frames.

Now, let's say you just skip the Tiger and go Dragon Claw/Dragon Claw/Dragon Claw. That'll also take 36 frames. You'll deal 450 per dragon claw, and attack 6 times, which means you'll deal 2700 damage over 36 frames.

What's this? You spent 20 skill points in Tiger Strike, and it really only increased your damage-over-time by 18%? Seems like an awful waste of skill points, to me.

In fact, when you look at it even closer, Tiger Strike even loses that meager edge. First off, you will *ALWAYS* have a better chance to hit with Dragon Claw than with Tiger Strike (DC adds a ridiculous 515% AR at slvl 20. Tiger Strike only adds 148% AR). Since you'll hit more with DC/DC/DC than with Tiger/Tiger/Tiger/DC, that'll skew the damage in DC's favor. Also, since Tiger Strike attacks slower, if you whiff with TS, it actually slows down your damage output even further than if you whiff with a DC attack (whiffing with Tiger sets you back 8 frames to DC's 6 frames). Even worse, this is assuming you can get a perfect 3 charges every time- if you overcharge or undercharge Tiger Strike, the damage output over time lags even further behind. And worst of all, this is ignoring Claw Mastery entirely. Claw Mastery (or any sources of off-weapon ED, such as Fortitude or a Might Merc) will further skew the comparison in favor of Dragon Claw.

In real-world situations, you will actually deal more damage by using Dragon Claw 100% of the time than you will by using Tiger Strike. Tiger Strike is really only useful for Dragon Tail builds, since it works multiplicatively with DTail's ED% (and additively with everything else). You lose so much damage attacking with Tiger Strike even the huge bonus isn't enough to make it all back up again.



 
How do you get a DClaw sin attacking faster than a Frenzier? That's an insult to the Frenzy build.
 
I said higher attack rate not faster attack speed.

20 Dragon Claw 145 515
20 Claw Mastery 111 220

20 Frenzy 185 233
20 Axe Mastery 123 180
20 In A Synergy 160
10 In A Synergy 80

Assassin attack rate 735 %
Assassin damage 256%

Barbarian attack rate 413%
Barbarian damage 548%

Tha Assassin has about twice the attack rate 20,000 to 10,000 and the Barbarian does twice as much damage. Roughly three times more damage because of better weapons.

Which is what I said higher attack rate lower damage. If you use Burst of Speed instead of Fade she plays exactly like a Frenzy Barb.

Frenzy and Dragon Claw cap at five frames. Which is the same speed. They both give huge faster run walk.

So in other words you find a monster and click. You are dual wielding. You end up running past monsters because you are moving so fast. You turn around click and wait till monster dies. You then run to the next monster.

They play exactly the same if the Assassin uses Burst of Speed. The Barb does more damage and the Assassin has more attack rating.
 
ilkori said:
How do you get a DClaw sin attacking faster than a Frenzier? That's an insult to the Frenzy build.
Click to expand...
Actually, if an Assassin runs Burst of Swing, she *WILL* attack faster than a Frenzy Barb. Frenziers will have the same top-end speed, potentially, but Assassins don't have to charge up- they're at top speed immediately, rather than after a few swings. So a 5-frame Dragon Claw compared to a 5-frame Frenzy looks like this:

10-frames for 2 dragon claws
10-frames for 2 dragon claws
10-frames for 2 dragon claws
10-frames for 2 dragon claws

vs.

14-frames for 2 frenzy attacks (speed gets charged)
12-frames for 2 frenzy attacks (speed gets charged)
11-frames for 2 frenzy attacks (speed gets charged)
10-frames for 2 frenzy attacks.

Of course, all of those values are purely hypothetical, but it demonstrates how Dragon Claw will absolutely deal more attacks per second than Frenzy. Also worth mentioning is that Dragon Claw has a faster base animation than Frenzy. Assassins with dual runics ([-30] WSM) have 8 base fpa with Dragon Claw. Barbs with dual Phase Blades ([-30] WSM) have an 8.5 base fpa with Frenzy.

Also, Maxed-out-BoS gives 52% EIAS and 61% FR/W. Maxed out Frenzy gives 42% EIAS and 171% FR/W. More EIAS, faster base attack speed... Frenzy might run faster, but BoS + Dragon Claw certainly attacks faster.



 
I have been thinking about making this build 4 awhile now but with a few different pieces of equipment

Helm Guillaume's
Fort
upped Gore Riders
upped Bartuc with shael
Fury in runic
Highlord's
Verdungo's
Raven
dual leech str dex ring
Dracul's and +3 MA 20 ias gloves

20 Dragon Claw
20 Claw Mastery
20 Block
20 Venom
10 Fade

Would i make the 5 frame? and should i fill my inventory with shadow or MA skills.
 
With Fury in your right hand and Bartuc's with a Shael in your left you will hit 5.5 frames if you wear the Martial Gloves with 20% attack speed or if you wear Dracul's and socket your Helm with a 15% attack speed jewel.

The only way to hit 5 frames is use Burst of Speed or wear a Jewelers Armor of The Whale with damage increased attack speed jewels.

With Fury in your right and Bartuc's with a Shael in your left this is what you need.

5.5 frames 35% off weapon speed
5.0 frames 85% off weapon speed

High Lords gives 20%. A Jewel in your Helm gives 15 allowing you to wear Dracul's and Fort and hit 5.5 and use Fade.

A Jewel in your Helm 15%. Plus Highlord's 20%. Plus Martial Gloves 20%. Plus a Jeweler's Armor with two 15% Jewels brings you to 85% and the 5 frame max.

I would not use Burst of Speed because it is easier to make up increased attack speed on your gear then it is to make up 70% resists and 25% damage reduction along with curse duration.

So the choice is yours. You have to ditch Fort to hit 5 frames and use Fade. That extra half a frame is up to you.

I would not use the Martial Gloves as they only Benefit a Dual Claw Assassin who is maxing Phoenix Strike, Claw Of Thunder, Fists Of Fire, Blades Of Ice, while wearing Treachery and going for 40 plus on her Elemental Martial Skills.

Shadow Skillers are vastly Superior to Martial for this build. They will Boost Venom, Claw Mastery, Fade and Weapon Block which will always be in play. They also help the one point wonders.

I only put 1 in Dragon Talon and 20 in Dragon Claw that was it. I didn't use 4 points on Dragon Tail, Dragon Flight, Tiger Strike, and Cobra Strike. All my other points went into Shadow. I didn't put any in Blade Fury or Death Sentry either. It was Dragon Claw only all the way. I switch to a Witchwild String for Chaos. With Venom, Amp, Deadly Strike, and Magic arrows it is good enough to get you through the one time you need to do it solo.
 
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