Diabloii.net= Hypocrite?

[squigipapa]

I'm assuming that English is not your native language?

It appears (I could be wrong) from your post that you use MH and believe that you "don't affect others." Of course if you use MH on closed BNet and interact with other players, that statement is untrue. As Elly stated, they made a decision to embrace ATMA. It's a decision that I personally agree with even though I've never used ATMA.

If you want to discuss MH, go to Mousepad's forum and discuss it there. If you don't like the rules here, leave. This isn't a "free speech" or "morality" issue, so you two need to get off your high horses.

So what exactly, from the statements that I've written above makes you assume that I use maphack. And even if I do, This entire thread is refering to single player, ATMA vs Maphack in single, I know all the arguements for battle.net play, hence the 'useing what I want to as long as I don't affect others' ... I take it english is not your native language.

Embrace ATMA, or any other 3rd party hack as much as you want, whatever I don't really care, but if for instance I play single player, I've never played online and I ask an innocent question about maphack on a site that embraces, even promotes the use of 3rd party hacks in single player, should I be flamed for it? All I'm stateing here is an oppinion, although it's an oppinion that supported by the game author/publisher's EULA, but whatever, they're wrong you're right.

A. Subject to the Grant of License hereinabove, You may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on the Program, or remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Program without the prior consent, in writing, of Blizzard.

ATMA Violates that section of the EULA, IT is NO better than maphack, or any other piece of 3rd party software in existance. Unless of course ATMA isen't a derivative work... ya, I guess it's possible that the author of ATMA could have come up with the idea for the program and written it exactly as it exists today if blizzard had never come up with diablo2. Because this site has decided to adopt one hack and not another means nothing in the eyes of their EULA, Anyone using ATMA is Violating the EULA in the same way that anyone using Maphack is Violating the EULA, In Single Player! Once you use a 3rd party hack on battle.net you are then violateing another EULA, the one you accept when creating a battle.net account.

You should take it easy with your assumptions, at no point in any of my posts in this thread did I mencion using ANY 3rd party program on battle.net, the entire thread was talking about ATMA, vs. anything else. I'm simply useing maphack as an example here, I could use d2jsp or whatever other hack I can find.

EDIT: I should mencion however, that I personally have no problem with ATMA, or this sites adoption of ATMA, I actually think it's a great utility. The problem I have is the discussion of ATMA as if it was an authorized utility put out by blizzard. If this site wants to adopt/promote ATMA, fine... great.. whatever, but accept the fact that it IS what it IS. Think of it this way, IF the author wrote a plugin for ATMA that extended it's functionality to battle.net, would it still be perfectly fine? what if I diden't install that plugin, but rather I still used it only in single player? would it then be ok?

 

[tooie1]

So what exactly, from the statements that I've written above makes you assume that I use maphack. And even if I do, This entire thread is refering to single player, ATMA vs Maphack in single, I know all the arguements for battle.net play, hence the 'useing what I want to as long as I don't affect others' ... I take it english is not your native language.

Embrace ATMA, or any other 3rd party hack as much as you want, whatever I don't really care, but if for instance I play single player, I've never played online and I ask an innocent question about maphack on a site that embraces, even promotes the use of 3rd party hacks in single player, should I be flamed for it? All I'm stateing here is an oppinion, although it's an oppinion that supported by the game author/publisher's EULA, but whatever, they're wrong you're right.



ATMA Violates that section of the EULA, IT is NO better than maphack, or any other piece of 3rd party software in existance. Unless of course ATMA isen't a derivative work... ya, I guess it's possible that the author of ATMA could have come up with the idea for the program and written it exactly as it exists today if blizzard had never come up with diablo2. Because this site has decided to adopt one hack and not another means nothing in the eyes of their EULA, Anyone using ATMA is Violating the EULA in the same way that anyone using Maphack is Violating the EULA, In Single Player! Once you use a 3rd party hack on battle.net you are then violateing another EULA, the one you accept when creating a battle.net account.

You should take it easy with your assumptions, at no point in any of my posts in this thread did I mencion using ANY 3rd party program on battle.net, the entire thread was talking about ATMA, vs. anything else. I'm simply useing maphack as an example here, I could use d2jsp or whatever other hack I can find.

EDIT: I should mencion however, that I personally have no problem with ATMA, or this sites adoption of ATMA, I actually think it's a great utility. The problem I have is the discussion of ATMA as if it was an authorized utility put out by blizzard. If this site wants to adopt/promote ATMA, fine... great.. whatever, but accept the fact that it IS what it IS. Think of it this way, IF the author wrote a plugin for ATMA that extended it's functionality to battle.net, would it still be perfectly fine? what if I diden't install that plugin, but rather I still used it only in single player? would it then be ok?

I thought it was pretty obvious, you stated "I will use whatever I want to use as long as I don't affect others" and I assumed this meant MH. I stated that it was an assumption on my part and that I could be wrong so once again, get off you high horse.

As to the rest of your argument, this is a private site and they set the rules. If you don't like it, leave. Bitching about "hypocracy" is a no win situation.

As to your attempted flame of my english skills, now I just question your intelligence and maturity, not your native language. I was trying to cut you some slack since many people on the board use english as a second language, although their use is frequently better than many "native" english speakers.

<sigh> I really shouldn't leave the HC forum...

 

[staticj]

Ok, its clear that squigipapa has beat you all in arguments so just give it up and stop posting. He actually made an argument and all you guys do now is attack him and say 'this is a private site...if you dont like it leave'.

At least he gave you a structured argument, now that youve been bested, its time to brush it aside. I've been coming to these forums for a while and never posted much but i've been noticing that everyone here is on a 'high horse'. Youre all always right and everyone else is always wrong. And honestly, reading through the forums, alot of people try to write intelligent posts but theyre mostly just filled with bull ****.

}>

 

[sangfagel]

No I think that it is you that canot see black and white. Just how you describe cheating as a SOCIAL CONTEXT problem shows you can't or woln't follow the logic to the root of the issue. And actually this is the perfect example because it is clearly defined in the user agreement you agreed to. NO THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE OR ALTERING OF GAME CODE. And it doesen't matter how many people say it's ok.

You are seeing the shallowest of contexts because public opinion (whim), is the LEAST important area of right and wrong. Right/Wrong, Cheating/Not are issues based on many levels of such a Public Welfare, Moral concerns, Individual rights, Legal Agreements/Contracts, Ect... There are TONS of things that are wrong that people don't like but they are wrong for a reason.

I don´t think you need question my ability of logical thinking just because I have a different opinion than you... and - yes, I CAN see "black and white" but I prefer to see different degrees of grey and some colours as well

What I meant was that to have some rules concerning human behaviour makes any sense ONLY if this behaviour has some social consequences.
To have rules for rules does not make any sense for any community. It can have some importance for one´s inner psychic equilibrium though - as it happens in cases of compulsive neurosis.

I belive my way of thinking is not in conflict with all these levels of "Public Welfare, Moral concerns..." etc.

You and fiew others point out that ATMA is unlegal as a "third party program". If it would be the case Blizzard´s lawers would surely took actions allready.
Regards

 

[squigipapa]

You and fiew others point out that ATMA is unlegal as a "third party program". If it would be the case Blizzard´s lawers would surely took actions allready.
Regards

I don't really think that useing Blizzards legal action as a base is a really good idea. Maphack is being sold, for a profit on the part of the author, and Blizzard has not taken any legal action, nor have they taken any legal action against d2jsp etc. So yes, ATMA is the exact same legal status as any other Unauthorized 3rd party program, however blizzard has not actually taken legal action against any of them.

however, I do like your thinking, so it's ok to use a program as long as blizzard hasen't taken any legal action against it. I donno, I think a few people around here would disagree with that..

 

[Anidem]

I don´t think you need question my ability of logical thinking just because I have a different opinion than you... and - yes, I CAN see "black and white" but I prefer to see different degrees of grey and some colours as well

What I meant was that to have some rules concerning human behaviour makes any sense ONLY if this behaviour has some social consequences.
To have rules for rules does not make any sense for any community. It can have some importance for one´s inner psychic equilibrium though - as it happens in cases of compulsive neurosis.

I belive my way of thinking is not in conflict with all these levels of "Public Welfare, Moral concerns..." etc.

You and fiew others point out that ATMA is unlegal as a "third party program". If it would be the case Blizzard´s lawers would surely took actions allready.
Regards

Funny, but wasan't the above in response to your statement "I think you try to see thing out of context" as I was stating my views of cheating?

I respond to the jab by makeing a logical arguemnt and you say I should not question your opinions? You take the first jab then moan when I jab back? No wonder you don't recognise hypocracy! How freakin hippie!

By saying social consequences are you referring to only others or are you including yourself into the term social. If you are, It is pretty impossible for you to take an action that doesn't affect you. If your referring to just others you don't understand the term Social Consequences. (HINT: Is it ok for you to speed if nobody else is on the road?)

As for the statement Rules for rules, does there not need to be guidelines for which rules are made? Rules made for with no reason (Basis) is what is dangerous.

Inner Psychic Equiliberim, thats a good one! Peace of mind is gained by clearing of the mind, accepting the situation you are in as fact and finding the most posative way of dealing with said situation. Sitting around wondering "why" all day long to everything in life that is not clear YET will cause Neurosis.

I think you should smile more when faced with differing opinions. Believe it or not were not always right. Even God made the Platypus.

 

[staticj]

(HINT: Is it ok for you to speed if nobody else is on the road?)

Wait a minute... lol.

Even though you own a piece of property, the government can come in and set the speed limit on the roads. Same thing with single player, Blizzard has set the rules in the EULA and people are breaking them.

If anything, your unthought argument is less helpfull to you.

And by the way... its spelled H Y P O C R I S Y

}>

 

[TeKmInIbI]

Did you type that all on one breath?

Uhhh being as i typed it, i think i took a breath like every 5 seconds.

And what was that supposed to mean anyways?
Considering you have MUCH longer replies....
You look more of an ***, than someone trying to be "cool".
And obviously you use hacks, otherwise this thread wouldn't be up and you wouldn't be such a rude-***... and apparently i offended you by saying "if you can't beat the damn game without hacks, you need to find a new game" sounds to me like that comment was taken quite personally by you.
~~;

TeKmInIbI


Edit: "I think you should smile more when faced with differing opinions. Believe it or not were not always right. Even God made the Platypus."
-Quoted by Anidem

I think you should also take your own advice, as my 1st comment was nothing BUT opinion.

 

[staticj]

Uhhh being as i typed it, i think i took a breath like every 5 seconds.

And what was that supposed to mean anyways?
Considering you have MUCH longer replies....
You look more of an ***, than someone trying to be "cool".
And obviously you use hacks, otherwise this thread wouldn't be up and you wouldn't be such a rude-***... and apparently i offended you by saying "if you can't beat the damn game without hacks, you need to find a new game" sounds to me like that comment was taken quite personally by you.
~~;

Nothing but assumptions here.. and you know what they say about assuming..

}>

 

[Anidem]

Uhhh being as i typed it, i think i took a breath like every 5 seconds.

And what was that supposed to mean anyways?
Considering you have MUCH longer replies....
You look more of an ***, than someone trying to be "cool".
And obviously you use hacks, otherwise this thread wouldn't be up and you wouldn't be such a rude-***... and apparently i offended you by saying "if you can't beat the damn game without hacks, you need to find a new game" sounds to me like that comment was taken quite personally by you.
~~;

TeKmInIbI


Edit: "I think you should smile more when faced with differing opinions. Believe it or not were not always right. Even God made the Platypus."
-Quoted by Anidem

I think you should also take your own advice, as my 1st comment was nothing BUT opinion.

Ok. we will try this again. I was slightly amused by your statement about not questioning you after you got done questioning me. I was hardly offended. I'm too old to be anything but amused by this crap.

The only reason I posted this thread was personal amusement. I kinda enjoy a little debate after a day of mundane work. It give me a smile till I go out tonight! But then again I think I made this disclaimer at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Hakai_no_Tenshi]

Yes old aguments. But i find It verry interesting the way that people can justify behaviors or beliefs based upon what they find convienent, espically in an election year.

There can be no real arguement that Both MH and ATMA are hacks. But it is interesting that MH is called cheating cuz it makes the game easier. Yet ATMA is called a convienence, although I bet the ability to Mule and equip a Necro with Trangs as soon as he meets the requirements does just as much to skewer the intended game difficulty

In the end, it's the decision of the admins to determine what they feel is right and wrong on their forums. When it comes down to the basics of it, ATMA is technically a hack and I as the creator will be the first to admit this. The crux of the argument is wether it is malicious or not and this is where subjective judgement comes into play when deciding what is "cheating" and what is not. Comparing ATMA and Maphack is like comparing apples and oranges. You need to judge them based on their own merits and not against each other since they do not have the same functionality.

Actually, I still remember the first day you signed up here at dii.net (noticed your name was Medina spelled backwards and that caught my eye) and unfortunately, you came in at the tail end of several important events. You do not have all the facts regarding the history of ATMA and purediablo.com so making any sort of opinon about the dii.net administration at this point is probably based on misinformation and/or misconceptions. You would have to go back 2-3 yrs and trace the history of the Single Player forums in order to get the full picture.

Anyway, as Elly said, trying to make any sort of response to a "hypocrite theory" is too mind numbing at this point because we have had this type of discussion too many times to count before your post that one can't really be bothered anymore. Each one of those posters somehow thinks their topic of discussion is unique but it just gets wearisome after a while ... almost like you answering the same question about " Where is REZIARFG " from every newcomer Perhaps you could try searching for previous threads but with the past 3 great Forum Crashes (FC) over the years, I doubt they still exist.

Discussion is all well and good but if you have been around here long enough, you will see that any final decision made by the admins here is mostly set in stone and will not be changed overnight especially on a topic that has been choked, beaten to death, flayed, dissected, grilled, torched and nuked as much as this one. Getting to this point where ATMA (in it's current form) was finally accepted by the admins here and various other D2 sites took way more than you know so I think it would be prudent to get all the facts straight first before making any assumptions.

I'm all for debate but this particular one cost a *lot* of people much personal grief which is why they are no longer here with us. The issue was resolved, decisions were made and as far as the rest of us are concerned, it was put to rest a long time ago.

--T

p.s: As a quick social commentary, walking into someone's house where you have been incited (and where they rule sovereign) and then insulting them is probably not the best tactic for initiating dialogue. In much the same ways as there are of shooting yourself in the foot, there are also many ways of communicating the same thing.

 

[Anidem]

Hi everyone!. Another dull day at work hammering thngs togeather. Did ne1 miss me? I guess not.

Well I guess Hakai pretty much put a final stamp on this thread. Hey, im curious. Why did Anidem/Medina catch your eye?

I admit the title was just a tease to get people in here. I never intended for Diabloii.net to ever consider taking ATMA down, I was actualy hoping this would bend toward a political direction (Hence the election year comment). Now thats some fun fanning those flames.

Your totally right on my lack of ATMA knowledge. Actually i had never heard of it untill this last update! It isn't something I would use because I think public muling is the last great anxiety filled moment in the game! It kinda brings up a level of urgency that I havent felt since I first saw a Uni ring fall in a public game.

I didn't know that ATMA was a sore spot here. I was just looking for some funny or odd info to jab at. No offence intended. But to be honest it was worth it just to see someone type in that "It is ok to speed if nobody else is on the road"! Try that as an excuse to the cop sitting on the side of the road.

 

[Anidem]

Wait a minute... lol.

Even though you own a piece of property, the government can come in and set the speed limit on the roads. Same thing with single player, Blizzard has set the rules in the EULA and people are breaking them.

If anything, your unthought argument is less helpfull to you.

And by the way... its spelled H Y P O C R I S Y

}>

Actually i think you kinda missed the point. I was using this as example to counter the idea that a rule that has no social reprocussions is pointless. Not to wether or not Diabloii.net was wrong or right about ATMA. Srry if I confused you.

 

[bradley_turner]

ok, im gonna take a stab here, didnt even bother reading the posts after the first, so if im just repeating, bear with me... ill answer for you if theres only one answer

brad - Anidem, are you able to mule without a using third party program?

Anidem - yes

brad - can you reveal the entire map, look at peoples gear without them knowing and know monster stats before they are on your screen without using third party program?

Anidem - no

brad - so, you're saying that muling can be done without atma but that you can't reveal the entire map, look at peoples gear without them knowing and know monster stats before they are on your screen without using maphack, am i right?

anidem - yes, and yes

brad - so muling is not cheating and revealing the entire map, looking at peoples gear without them knowing and knowing monster stats before they are on your screen is, correct?

anidem - yes, and yes again

brad - ok, thank you, discussion over, move along folks nothing to see here

maphack changes the way you play, and atma doesnt



sorry if i seemed kind of presumptious (spelling!!!) but if you argue any of the answers i gave you, feel free to dispute them....

 

[squigipapa]

ok, im gonna take a stab here, didnt even bother reading the posts after the first, so if im just repeating, bear with me... ill answer for you if theres only one answer

brad - Anidem, are you able to mule without a using third party program?

Anidem - yes

Brad - so I've looked at atma, and it seems that it provides an 'unlimited stash' that can be shared by all your characters, So I'm assumeing you can do this without atma, right?

Anidem - uhhhh .. well .. no

 

[RTB]

squigipapa: Yes. It just takes a LOT of mules.

 

[squigipapa]

squigipapa: Yes. It just takes a LOT of mules.

Ya, I understand that, but what I meant is that it provides an unlimited stash without the need of an enourmous amount of mules, therefore with ATMA, you can do something that, in the normal game you can't. Contrary to the analogy that bradley made. As well, in single player once you've completed an area the map is fully visible so yes you can see the entire map in single player, and as for his other point, we're talking single player here, so seeing someone else's equiptment is not really in scope.

Of course someone could argue that you don't have to use the unlimited stash feature of ATMA, and you could use a bunch of mules and only use atma as a transfer mecanism, however, you could disable the monster mod features of maphack as well.

All I'm trying to say here is that ATMA is a hack. Plain and simple, I'm not saying it's good or bad, it dosen't really matter. It is not approved by blizzard, therefore it is an unauthorized 3rd party application like any other. So if I'm a newcomer to the game, I find purediablo.com, read of their anti cheat/anti hack standpoint, then see atma for download, I'm probably going to think it's blizzard approved. I don't see anywhere where it says:

"We have decided that ATMA is an acceptable hack, we promote it's use and don't discourage discussions about it in our forums, however, it is an unauthorized 3rd party program and by useing it you are violateing the EULA that you agreed to when installing Diablo."

I was not able to find anything like that around here, I apoligize if I missed it. For a newcomer to the game, there is nothing to give them any indication that by useing this app they are violateing the EULA. Now if blizzard were to come out and say, "We have reviewed the functionality of ATMA, and approve of it's use" that would be a different story. But thus far, I have not heard any statements like that from them.

 

[Anidem]

ok, im gonna take a stab here, didnt even bother reading the posts after the first, so if im just repeating, bear with me... ill answer for you if theres only one answer

brad - Anidem, are you able to mule without a using third party program?

Anidem - yes

brad - can you reveal the entire map, look at peoples gear without them knowing and know monster stats before they are on your screen without using third party program?

Anidem - no

brad - so, you're saying that muling can be done without atma but that you can't reveal the entire map, look at peoples gear without them knowing and know monster stats before they are on your screen without using maphack, am i right?

anidem - yes, and yes

brad - so muling is not cheating and revealing the entire map, looking at peoples gear without them knowing and knowing monster stats before they are on your screen is, correct?

anidem - yes, and yes again

brad - ok, thank you, discussion over, move along folks nothing to see here

maphack changes the way you play, and atma doesn't.

Anidem - But brad doesn't the ability to horde items that you would not usually find or buy from higher level charcters so as to have them ready as soon as the requirements are filled also change the game and give you an advantage over others? ( If you don't think so I got a level 13 Chargadin with Sigons and a 2 socket Brutal Pike. He does 171-739 damage. And stuffed with charms. His name is ObiWan Bendover.)

Brad - Err....Mabye but I don't think its that much.

ObiWan Bendover - (Charge).

Brad - Oooooowie! Drops gold. Refuses to run to the light. "ObiWan's a HACKER!" (I get that a lot with this charcter)

Anidem - See my point?

Brad - Yes I do! I thank you for pointing out my mistake so I can change my ways and devote my life to the pursuit of justice! I was so horrrible wrong that I shall now go flog my own body with barbed wire for 40 days as to appease our lord, The Great Mystic Chicken.

 

[Anidem]

squigipapa: Yes. It just takes a LOT of mules.

But it also take ALL the risk out of muling. Maphack doesn't offer you Invulnerability in fights (At least that I know of). So in that sense it is actually changes the game more than MH.

 

[squigipapa]

But it also take ALL the risk out of muling. Maphack doesn't offer you Invulnerability in fights (At least that I know of). So in that sense it is actually changes the game more than MH.

well, maphack has a lot of 'features' the ablity to 'chicken out' of a fight when your life ball hits a certian % is one of them. I mean I'm not argueing for the use of maphack either, and I really hope no one interpreted anything that I said as 'go go maphack, or maphack is ok if atma is ok' that's not what I meant at all. I just don't think that slamming one hack and praising another makes a whole lot of sense, because when it comes down to it, they're both hacks, and in the eyes of Blizzard Lawyers they're the exact same thing.