Crushing blow barb

[Sir Lister of Smeg]

Crushing blow barb

I decided to try my luck with a barbarian focusing on getting a lot of crushing blow (at least 100%), but am wondering what kind of barb it should be. Basically I do see three options:
Whirlwinder
Concentrater
Berserker
I'm not including the frenzier since I have another frenzier stalled somewhere in act III nightmare, which I should I play again and this time use the warcries to effect, I think that was what was bothering me with all the flayers.
First of all, I assume crushing blow does work with berserk. First crushing blow is applied, only then is the normal physical weapon damage converted to magic damage.
A whirlwinder is probably easier, but I already patted an IK whirlwinder, so I prefer to use another attack.

As to weapon, I think of going for a massive two-handed weapon, with reach 5, probably an obedience polearm (great poleaxe, I still need to find a five socket one) for starting out with 40% crushing blow, resistances, and enchant for fire damage. Just one question about reach though, does it work to hit enemies at upto 5 distance or enemies at 5 distance? (I'm 99% sure it's the former, but having played a lot of d&d where it is the latter, it can't hurt asking)
Another option would of course be an upgraded hone sundan (for which I might be lacking in the runes department, I don't remember the upgrade recipe). Other weapons lose in the range department, apart from steel pillar which I don't have. I can only get to 95% crushing blow if I don't use a weapon with crushing blow, unless I would be able to socket my armour and helm with ber runes, but unfortunately I've yet to find/cube any of those.
But speaking about range, how important is it? If I were to step down to lower range, more options would present themselves in the form of ribcracker, immortal king's stone crusher, bonesnap, bloodtree stump, windhammer, death runeword and a few others that I don't have or cannot make.

If crushing blow does work with berserk, then that's basically where my preference lies, but again, how important is range for a berserker? I feel that for style, a big hammer is far more suitable for someone focussing on crushing things than a big polearm, for a berserker, the defense mods on ribcracker are of course more or less wasted. For effectiveness however, the obedience polearm with physical damage in the form of crushing blow, fire damage in the form of enchant and magical damage in the form of berserk would probably still win it.

 

[Hoop76]

If it was me id go for the Concentrate barb. With ribcracker you should get really good defense also.

 

[Llathias]

As crushing blow takes off a percentage of a monster's remaining life, it is best utilized with a very fast melee attack, like Whirlwind, Zeal, Fury, Jab etc. Single target attacks such as Berserk or Concentrate are actually more effective alternatives than CB, with their relatively slow nature compensated by huge %ed bonuses. If you can kill a monster with two hits, taking off 1/8 life via CB (and once every 15 frame, instead of 4-5) won't be of much importance, after all. Because of all this, I'd suggest either WW or Frenzy for a CB barb build.

 

[SiTro]

Could a Zealbarb work at all using the +1 Zeal from a Passion runeword? Fairly fast multiple attacks with a few +skills.

Is it possible to Zeal with two weapons in the hand? If so perhaps you could have a hurty CB weapon in your other hand? I'm just throwing an idea out here, I'm not sure how viable a Zealbarb would be, but I'd be interested to hear any thoughts.

edit: Check this out. Hehe, that was far too good an idea for me to be the first to come up with it. Even advocates the use of cb as a possible way of dealing damage quickly enough to overcome passion's low damage.

Now if it was me making that build with your focus on cb, I'd put passion in the off-hand (I'm getting the impression only the main weapon is swung when zealing while dual-wielding?), and use a 6os phase blade as the main weapon. Fill the sockets with 4x Eth and 2x Shael for -100% enemy defense and 40% IAS. Basically, Nightfish's patented CB setup, and all you need to reach 4fpa Zeal (47% for phase blades I believe) would be 10% more IAS from somewhere.

Again, all speculation, so I could be dead wrong, but this has me wondering about trying to collect items with a focus on making this build. Too little time...

 

[Sir Lister of Smeg]

So basically it looks like I'll have to go with whirlwind or zeal (I do have a passion weapon somewhere), frenzy is not an option for me, since I do already have a frenzier stalled. And the point about crushing blow with concentrate or berserk does seem valid indeed. For zeal I would not go for the 4eth/2shael phaseblade (although on that note, I think more eths would be worthwhile, since iirc the lower target defense is less effective against bosses), since that does not allow me to hit the 100% crushing blow (and I want 100%, not 95%). I have noticed that with concentrate it's indeed only my right hand weapon being used (I equipped full angelic and full death's set for a while, with the latter weapon on the right hand since it deals far more damage), so it's indeed very likely the same goes for zeal (and whirlwind?).

Still, I guess I'll go for whirlwind with an obedience great poleaxe (or giant tresher, but that would mean far higher requirements). Another option would be an upgraded hone sundan. Iirc, I cannot be hit while whirling and if I'm not whirling I'll be berserking, so I can basically ignore defense. (I'm also thinking of maxing war cry for stunning)

For zeal the options seem to be confined to a black/strength/death weapon in my right hand or (double) upgraded crushflange/knell striker/rixot's keen/islestrike/fleshrender, since the other weapons with crushing blow I either do not have, are two-handed, or I can not make (runewise, this might be true for the upgrade to elite as well, but that's solvable).

So far I reached normal travincal without putting any points in a weapon mastery and without pumping skills (I did put the mandatory one point in skills that are either prerequisites or will be used). Most used skills so far are leap attack and taunt, Duriel went down very quickly with concentrate and crushing blow. Current gear is goblin toe, bonesnap (might be worth upgrading at 297% cruelty), death's gloves and belt, angelic armour, amulet and double rings, and tarnhelm. I can now change the armour for rattlecage to get the crushing blow up to 90% and add in blood gloves to reach the 100% already now at level 29.

 

[Harrid]

Just a couple of quick notes about whirlwind:

I have noticed that with concentrate it's indeed only my right hand weapon being used (I equipped full angelic and full death's set for a while, with the latter weapon on the right hand since it deals far more damage), so it's indeed very likely the same goes for zeal (and whirlwind?).

WW alternates between the weapons it uses (well, there is more to it than that, but that is a simple approximation). Else, it would be rather pointless to make dual wielding whirlers, yes? :laugh:

Still, I guess I'll go for whirlwind with an obedience great poleaxe (or giant tresher, but that would mean far higher requirements). Another option would be an upgraded hone sundan.

3x Shael Hone Sundan whirls at 4 frames per attack
GPA at 10
GT at 8

Should be fairly clear which is the best option here, yes? :wink3:

Iirc, I cannot be hit while whirling and if I'm not whirling I'll be berserking, so I can basically ignore defense. (I'm also thinking of maxing war cry for stunning)

You can be hit whilst whirling. You cannot be sent into hit recovery. That being said, you need not necessarily put a high priority on high defense. There are ways to survive other than hoping enemies do not hit you. Stunning, for instance :laugh: .

 

[Sir Lister of Smeg]

Just a couple of quick notes about whirlwind:


WW alternates between the weapons it uses (well, there is more to it than that, but that is a simple approximation). Else, it would be rather pointless to make dual wielding whirlers, yes? :laugh:

Not necessarily, the weapon might be there for other purposes than dealing damage. All the elite unique swords for example have stats that might be very worthwhile even if you put it in your off-hand and don't attack with it: elemental absorb for Djinn Slayer/Lightsabre/Frostwind/Flamebellow
+skills (including charges)/stats for Bloodmoon/Azurewrath/Frostwind/Flamebellow/Doombringer/The Grandfather

Of course in most cases other options such as shields do this far better. Still, another example is a spirit sword if you go for low strength (you call yourself a barbarian then?), it's far easier to meet the requirements for that than for a spirit shield.

Anyway, how does dual wielding work with zeal? I'll check whether I can try it out on my IK barb, but somehow I doubt it, I don't remember in what weapon I made the passion, but it probably does require some dex which afaik he does not have.

As to obedience great poleaxe versus hone sundan ghost spear, the latter will indeed be a factor 2.5 faster when triple shaeled, and even two times as fast as an obedience giant tresher.

So let's look at other stats (all great poleaxe versus ghost spear since they have the same average damage):
Crushing blow on hone sundan 45 versus only 40 on obedience. This is not likely to be an issue to reach 100%.
Enhanced damage of 160-200% on hone sundan versus 370% for obedience. Although most things are crushed, since normal damage is applied afterwards this will still matter.
Faster hit recovery of 40% on obedience, we can not be sent into hit recovering during whirling, so this does not matter a lot, apart from those areas where we berserk, or before we start whirling, upon discovery of that burning dead archer/spike fiend pack sending us all the time into hit recovery so we cannot begin to whirl.
Resistances on obedience, even if we use warcry all the time to stun everything, resistances will still matter, think siege engines, lightning spires and poison clouds from zombies, bosses cannot be stunned I think, so Diablo's lbod and other boss attacks will be less damaging with resistances.
Ctc high level enchant on obedience, otherwise we would still have demon limb on switch, but still, this leaves room for dual heart carvers for horking. With enchant the Angelic combo might not be needed, although I doubt it.
+ damage for hone sundan, if this is applied before enhanced damage, then it does bring it closer to obedience, although it'll still be behind.
Cold damage on obedience, with everything stunned this does not matter with the exception of bosses.
- target defense on obedience, will make it easier to hit.
- enemy fire resist on obedience, more fire damage dealt, very nice against physical immunes
+ defense on obedience, if we can get hit during whirlwind, then this does matter.
+str, +dex, -requirements on obedience is more life.

All in all, although Hone Sundan is far better in speed, that seems to be the only part where it outshines Obedience. It might because of this outshine obedience in damage over time, but there are other benefits to using obedience that also count.

Still, looking at things again, concentrate might indeed not be a bad way to go (the enhanced damage isn't very high as with leap attack or berserk). Combined with taunt, a short range weapon like ribcracker or windhammer might even be usable. Still, in that case, how to deal with immunes? (especially dual magic/physical immunes). I prefer to have double heart carvers on switch and not a demon limb.

More opinions, please?

 

[Harrid]

If you are using a weapon for a reason other than hitting stuff, you should not be using Whirlwind.

Enhanced damage of 160-200% on hone sundan versus 370% for obedience. Although most things are crushed, since normal damage is applied afterwards this will still matter.

When attacking twice as fast, this difference is far less then it seems.

Faster hit recovery of 40% on obedience, we can not be sent into hit recovering during whirling, so this does not matter a lot, apart from those areas where we berserk, or before we start whirling, upon discovery of that burning dead archer/spike fiend pack sending us all the time into hit recovery so we cannot begin to whirl.

This could be a fair point, depending on the rest of your gear. If you have at least 27% FHR elsewhere (Arreat's Face, for instance), however, the extra 40% will make at most 1 frame of difference. If that much is going to stop you from whirling, you have made too poor of a decision already.

Resistances on obedience, even if we use warcry all the time to stun everything, resistances will still matter, think siege engines, lightning spires and poison clouds from zombies, bosses cannot be stunned I think, so Diablo's lbod and other boss attacks will be less damaging with resistances.

A good point for Obedience (Personally, I would not care to give up 20-30 resist all for a weapon that kills faster, but my style of play is akin to a defensive blitzer [if such a thing exists :laugh:], which does not seem to be the same as yours). For Diablo, though, just keep circling/triangling him and his lightning blast should not be hitting you at all.

Ctc high level enchant on obedience, otherwise we would still have demon limb on switch, but still, this leaves room for dual heart carvers for horking. With enchant the Angelic combo might not be needed, although I doubt it.

Ctc does not activate while whirling. Will help when using Berserk, yes.

+ damage for hone sundan, if this is applied before enhanced damage, then it does bring it closer to obedience, although it'll still be behind.
Cold damage on obedience, with everything stunned this does not matter with the exception of bosses.
- target defense on obedience, will make it easier to hit.
- enemy fire resist on obedience, more fire damage dealt, very nice against physical immunes
+ defense on obedience, if we can get hit during whirlwind, then this does matter.
+str, +dex, -requirements on obedience is more life.

Most of these are good points. Just want to point out that the +defense on Obedience would only amount to around 1200 more defense in the end (depending on your levels of IS and Shout...1200 is roughly a perfect roll with slvl 3 IS and slvl 20 Shout). This is largely insignificant unless you have enough defense to begin with to noticeably affect monster CtH. Personally, I prefer to use my tactics to avoid being hit than my luck.

Hone Sundan will do more damage and more crushing blows than Obedience in either polearm, with the difference being more pronounced as you whirl through bigger packs. This means more leeching (more survivability) and faster killing (more survivability). Obedience gives you more lasting power and a little more equipment freedom. Either one can work, of course, but it is my opinion that the whole point of using Whirlwind is to take advantage of having an uninterruptable, AoE, 4 frame attack.

 

[Sir Lister of Smeg]

You certainly have a point in the survivability department.

Looking at the list of crushing blow items I did get to have some doubts on survivability regardless of the exact build. For weapons there are many choices, for other gear it's limited to:
headgear: Guilaume's Face (35), Giant Skull (10)
body armour: Rattlecage (25), Duress (15)
boots: Goblin Toe (25), Gore Rider (15)
gloves: Venom Grip (5), Steelrend (10), Blood (5-10).

For weapons, the highest are:
The Cranium Basher (75)
Last Wish (60-70)
Bloodtree Stump, Ribcracker, Windhammer, Death (50)
Hone Sundan (45)
Obedience, Infinity, Stone Crusher, Bone Snap (40)
IK Stone Crusher (35-40)

Of course those above 50 are out since I don't have them or expect Diablo 7 to come out before I find the runes for them. The same holds for Infinity and Stone Crusher. I do have a 40% IK Stone Crusher.

In other words, if I want to use other headgear (such as Arreat's that I found very recently) than Guillaume's (and I don't have Giant Skull), and want to have large reach, I must use Rattlecage and Goblin Toe, with Hone Sundan giving me the option of using Venom Grip instead of blood gloves (I don't have Steelrend). If I do use Guillaume's I have a lot more choice in the other gear, so I think that's what I'll do. If I forfeit the reach, then the 50% weapons become available. In that case I do see however little reason to make a whirlwinder, not because it's ineffective, just because I only want to make a whirlwinder with large reach. (I already made an IK whirlwinder) In that case I do have to ask how to deal with immunes, apart from berserk, specifically the dual physical/magic immunes, while keeping dual heart carvers on switch. I know the IK maul gets partial boni, but I prefer not to use it or I'll end up making another IK barb, but this time using concentrate or berserk or so.

 

[noobintraining]

Interesting idea, Sir Lister. I'd like to hear how it turns out, since I'm thinking about building an impalazon (thanks, jiansonz!) with max crushing blow.

 

[lachen]

I'd like to second using a Hone Sundan, because Obedience is slow, and you want to hit fast with whirlwind. Also, if upgrading the Hone Sundan, be sure to plan for the big 163 dex requirement it gains as a Ghost Spear. (I'm sure you already knew that, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.)

Physical/Magic immunes: you shouldn't run into many of these, but there are a few options: Atma's Scarab, The Reaper's Toll (on a merc), Spellsteel (unique Bearded Axe, lvl3 Decrep charges) in cube/inventory, or try to kill them with open wounds.

Hone, Guillame's, and Goblin Toe seems like the best combo, and actually sounds like it might be fun, maybe I'll try it too.

 

[Sir Lister of Smeg]

I'd like to second using a Hone Sundan, because Obedience is slow, and you want to hit fast with whirlwind. Also, if upgrading the Hone Sundan, be sure to plan for the big 163 dex requirement it gains as a Ghost Spear. (I'm sure you already knew that, but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.)

Physical/Magic immunes: you shouldn't run into many of these, but there are a few options: Atma's Scarab, The Reaper's Toll (on a merc), Spellsteel (unique Bearded Axe, lvl3 Decrep charges) in cube/inventory, or try to kill them with open wounds.

Hone, Guillame's, and Goblin Toe seems like the best combo, and actually sounds like it might be fun, maybe I'll try it too.

Yes, I noticed the ghost spear requirement, and it got me thinking what Blizzard were thinking when they put that in with the yari at no dex requirement.

I must add that I cleared the Chaos Sanctuary, and have started to feel annoyed by Rattlecage's chance to cause monster to flee, just a few more levels and I will be able to put on Guillaume's face. That said, something I'd forgotten about, are there any helms and weapons that turn purple? (I might discover some later on, but am still too low level for Guillaume's face) This is of course completely off topic, but I do like the look of Rattlecage, it would just be better on a ranged character.

But I'll guess I'll go indeed with the Hone Sundan, although I must add that so far using only normal attack and warcries with the occassional berserk (when Eddied), concentrate, or leap attack makes me want to make a leaper. I do guess however that a leaper one hit kills everything even at players8 hell.

I did switch to Ribcracker from Bonesnap, and the less slow attack speed does make a huge difference. If I want to start whirling (or using any other attack regularly) I will need to make my merc insightful first.

On another matter, where is the best place to find more Hone Sundans (the drop calculator in ATMA crashes under linux)? I have only one, and though it's better than average, I'd prefer it to be a bit closer to perfect before upgrading. And while I'm asking, the same question for Ribcrackers.

 

[Harrid]

That said, something I'd forgotten about, are there any helms and weapons that turn purple? (I might discover some later on, but am still too low level for Guillaume's face) This is of course completely off topic, but I do like the look of Rattlecage, it would just be better on a ranged character.

Tal's armor is purple too, I think.

On another matter, where is the best place to find more Hone Sundans (the drop calculator in ATMA crashes under linux)? I have only one, and though it's better than average, I'd prefer it to be a bit closer to perfect before upgrading. And while I'm asking, the same question for Ribcrackers.

Top 8 single targets:

Hone:
NM Meph (1/1512), NM Diablo, NM Baal, H Andy (quest kill), H Meph, H Diablo, H Baal, H Duriel (1/3970)

Ribcracker:
NM Andy (quest kill) (1/2692), Baal, NM Meph, NM Diablo, NM Baal, H Andy (quest kill), H Meph, H Diablo (1/3664)

 

[Sir Lister of Smeg]

I went with whirlwind indeed and encountered (as expected) some serious mana problems, in spite of my merc wielding insight. Those problems diappeared however as soon as I put mana stealing gear (Silks Of The Victor) and the triple shaeled Hone Sundan on. I think I was using only the silks together with the ribcracker for a while and still ran into trouble, but with the large attack speed and range of the yari they disappeared nearly (now I only run into mana problems while horking). I just cleared the cow level and am about to enter nightmare, I'll probably change my gear a little bit to get positive resists, probably a smoke armour (or maybe lionheart). I might drop one of the angelic rings for a manald heal or so and maybe switch gloves and belt as well. The former being crafted caster gloves for the mana with some nice lightning resistance, and the latter string of ears, the damage reduction of which is quite nice. Another option would be wilhelm's pride for the double steal.

 

[Sir Lister of Smeg]

Crusher reached act II nightmare at level 57, but has had some serious problems with death explosions, dying to both Griswold and Coldworm in this way, I should have put more points in vitality earlier on. Lately I've noticed him often losing a lot of life while whirling, scarabs were very dangerous, in spite of positive, but granted, not high, lightning resistance.

Anyway, I'm a bit in doubt whether to indeed go with War Cry as I originally intended, although my defense won't be very high due to my armour having to cover some things, and wanting to remain at low strength, going with Shout might be a better idea due to the short range of War Cry and Shout being a synergy for Berserk.

Furthermore, I'd like to get some gear advise. Already for now, but also for the hellish future. The gear is however a bit limited in choice, since I don't want to raise strength any further, the current 115 is enough for Guillaume's Face which gives another 15. It will also be enough when/if I upgrade the Hone Sundan. My guess is also that Goblin Toe will remain throughout, although I could exchange it for a combination of Gore Riders and crafted Blood gloves or Venom Grip. That basically leaves rings, amulet, armour, belt and gloves as spots that could be changed. On switch I'd like to keep the dual Heart Carvers for horking.

At the moment the setup is:
Two Angelic rings and the amulet: attack rating
Smoke mage plate: resistances
Wilhelm's Pride: leech
Lava Gout: half freeze duration, more fire resist, chance to enchant.

One note on the last item, I'm under the impression that the enchant is sometimes cast while whirling. I thought that could not happen, but observations led me to believe otherwise, now I did sometimes start to attack normally/leap/berserk/concentrate to get the enchant casted, but sometimes it appeared while I had only been whirling. Could it be that just like off-weapon ias is not counted for whirling, off-weapon ctc on striking/attacking can be cast while whirling just like on-weapon ctc on striking/attacking can not be cast while whirling?

Another odd thing I noticed is that I sometimes got momentarily frozen by monsters which should not have a freeze ability. The most notable being the terrorists in the normal WSK while whirling through them, the normal enslaved did not do that.

I'd like to get rid of the Angelic combo at some point, but is that realistic taking into account that I want to remain at about 95% chance to hit, also with normal attack? Not to mention getting high resists and damage reduction at some point.