Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

Hymn

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Oct 14, 2003
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Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

Just a simple curiosity, if you were to equip a Razortail and utilize the brand runeword in a bow or crossbow, would the result be a extremely fast firing barrage of bone spears in the direction of the arrow/bolt fired?
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

That's sort of what I figured.

So with ITD and 85% Piercing, you should be doing a decent amount of damage to large packs of mobs.

Noticed the bow has super knockback too, via exploding arrow and regular knockback, which is ridiculous. Anything in your line of fire would be decimated.


So I guess the next question would be: Bow or Crossbow


To keep str/dex requirements low, I'd probably go something of the exceptional variety, since your damage doesn't come from physical anyways.

Double Bow is a good candidate.
Repeating Crossbow is a good candidate.

No idea what extra ias you'd need to hit break points though, I'll have to check on that.
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

I'd have to say Chu-Ko-Nu, the -60 base would ease up the need for IAS elsewhere on gear and it's in the exception family so the requirments are pretty low.

However, a good boner necro is going to hit the 9 frame break point where as any ranged weapon would top out at 11, i think. the arrows also have to hit the target to proc bone spears so the AR requirements would be high (ITD doesn't work on everything).
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

I'd have to say Chu-Ko-Nu, the -60 base would ease up the need for IAS elsewhere on gear and it's in the exception family so the requirments are pretty low.

However, a good boner necro is going to hit the 9 frame break point where as any ranged weapon would top out at 11, i think. the arrows also have to hit the target to proc bone spears so the AR requirements would be high (ITD doesn't work on everything).

You'd still have spirit on backup, but yeah boss killing would be tough. You have enough crowd control (example, maxed out BW and BP) along with plenty of curses to remove defense from mobs if it's not effected by ITD.

The point is the piercing allows you to break the 9 frame rule via striking many mobs in a row. One arrow could feasibly turn into 10 bone spears, all with explosive knock back, and can be rapid fired so it may even stack to the point where you have nothing but a white streak in front of you.

A well equipped Act 5 merc can take care of most of your boss problems too


[edit] I also heard that bows can hit 10 Frame attacks while crossbows max out at 11 Frames, which is why I put it up there. You'd pretty much need to wear treachery to make up the required IAS for bows though. Not exactly a bad thing but... whatever.



 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

it's true, piercing could do that but only for several mobs back in a group. the closest mob is only ever going to be hit by, at most, one arrow and one bone spear, the second by one arrow and two bone spears, ect. so you might eventually get to the point where you're dealing more damage to a mob sufficiently inside a pack than a true boner necro. however the proc chance is not 100% and the bone spears are level capped at 18 so they're going to be weaker per spear. a lot of procs, and by extension a lot of mobs, are going to have to be concentrated for it to come out ahead.

however if you're just looking for something off the beaten path to try out for fun then i'd go for it.
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

So with ITD and 85% Piercing, you should be doing a decent amount of damage to large packs of mobs.

Noticed the bow has super knockback too, via exploding arrow and regular knockback, which is ridiculous. Anything in your line of fire would be decimated.
The Unique Razortail Sharkskin Belt only has 33% Piercing Attack, and a Brand 'JahLoMalGul' bow has none.

Exploding Arrow's explosion doesn't apply Knockback: I think you might be confusing it with an Assassin's Dragon Tail. Each arrow will apply Knockback to targets it hits, but it's only 100% against small targets, 50% against medium targets and 25% against large targets. There are also monsters to which Knockback cannot be applied.

No idea what extra ias you'd need to hit break points though, I'll have to check on that.
For a Necromancer, bows have maximum 10 frame attack rate while crossbows have maximum 11 frame attack rate. This Attack Speed Calculator can be used to see how much Increased Attack Speed you need to reach particular speed break-points.

You'd still have spirit on backup, but yeah boss killing would be tough. You have enough crowd control (example, maxed out BW and BP) along with plenty of curses to remove defense from mobs if it's not effected by ITD.

The point is the piercing allows you to break the 9 frame rule via striking many mobs in a row. One arrow could feasibly turn into 10 bone spears, all with explosive knock back, and can be rapid fired so it may even stack to the point where you have nothing but a white streak in front of you.
None of the Necromancer's Curses lower defence rating, but if you're equal or higher level to a normal monster or minion you'll normally have 95% chance-to-hit thanks to Ignore Target's Defence.

Arrows can pierce a maximum of four times, hitting five targets and thus only a maximum of five Bone Spears can be cast on striking. However, even with 95% chance-to-hit and 100% Chance to Cast Level 18 Bone Spear On Striking, the fact that you only have 33% Piercing Attack means you will rarely achieve this maximum:

Code:
# SPEARS    1            2            3            4            5
___________________________________________________________________________
% CHANCE    95.0         29.8         9.3          2.9          0.9
MAX DAMAGE  1,108-1,174  2,216-2,348  3,324-3,522  4,432-4,696  5,540-5,870
Furthermore, the only targets that could be hit by all five Bone Spears would be those behind the first four, since the Bone Spears are fired from the target, not the Necromancer. Even if we compare a 10 frame attack rate against a 10 frame cast rate, simply casting fully synergised Bone Spear would apply greater damage at the following skill levels:

Code:
# SPEARS      1     2     3     4     5
_________________________________________
SKILL LEVEL   >18   >28   >35   >43   >49
However, the average Bone Spear damage applied per arrow or bolt to all targets behind the first four is only about 2,200-2,331, so practically any Necromancer could apply more Bone Spear damage over time by casting them himself.

I'm not saying that a Brand bow isn't an interesting weapon with which to equip a Necromancer, but it isn't a superior way to cast Bone Spears.


 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

Eh I never said it was a better way to cast them, it just seemed like an interesting build of course. You can add the elemental fire damage and physical damage to the list of extra bonuses too, which would push the curve up a little to make him comparable to a pure bone necro. Since you do physical damage, lifetap has much more importance and allows for a greater survivability than a regular bone necro, while sacrificing a little damage I suppose.

It's worth an attempt anyways, you should theoretically be able to kill nearly everything in Hell, given you have 3 venues of damage, although the first two are weaker than the third, and you have extremely good survivability via bone prison/wall and bone armor, toppled with ranged leech given via lifetap.


Also, I didn't know razortail was only 33%. I coulda sworn it was more than that.


As for the weapon: Crossbow is ultimately better because it would require 90 ias to achieve 10 FPA with a bow.
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

Eh I never said it was a better way to cast them, it just seemed like an interesting build of course.
Sorry, I read too much into this:

The point is the piercing allows you to break the 9 frame rule via striking many mobs in a row. One arrow could feasibly turn into 10 bone spears, all with explosive knock back, and can be rapid fired so it may even stack to the point where you have nothing but a white streak in front of you.
Combined with the thread title, it sounded like you were getting carried away based on misunderstanding, and I wanted to correct that before you tried it and were disappointed.

It should still be a lot of fun and powerful (at least 1,108-1,174 magic damage per hit still can't be taken lightly), particularly if you can add a lot of fire damage to take full advantage of the Exploding Arrows.


 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

here's a thought, get a pair of gloves with multiple shot charges and pair it up. not to practicle but it would look pretty damn cool.
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

% Chance to Cast on Striking is only applied by Multiple Shot's original two arrows or bolts, and you only fire Exploding Arrows when you use Normal Attack.
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

Sorry, I read too much into this:


Combined with the thread title, it sounded like you were getting carried away based on misunderstanding, and I wanted to correct that before you tried it and were disappointed.

It should still be a lot of fun and powerful (at least 1,108-1,174 magic damage per hit still can't be taken lightly), particularly if you can add a lot of fire damage to take full advantage of the Exploding Arrows.

Meh, when I made the thread I was thinking a few different things, but even this build seems plausable in terms of effectiveness, though not the same as what I thought.

I thought arrows pierced more than 5 targets
I thought razortail provided more than 33% piercing
I thought the bone spear spawned from you, not the target.

I'm still was fully aware that a well equipped bone necro would out-damage any off builds that attempt to do the same damage, considering that's how the class was designed, and though it's not as effective as I initially thought, it seems effective enough to put into practice and try a few different things.


It looks interesting to make an elemental ranged necro though, with lower resist as the main source of damage increase, while using explosive arrow as his main attack skill.

Harmony perhaps? Make a skeletal mage army with a elemental ranged necro behind them. or Ice even looks better than Harmony.



 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

This build sounds cool. If anyone posts vids of it, I would use time on watching it, it is true! :cloud9:
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

Theres a problem with youtubing this and that is most of the time the bonespears are offscreen so you dont get to appreciate it unless you listen to the sound of the bonespears.If you could be bothered you could get it to work in single player then use the screen res hack(then you'd have to scale it down as it will be too big even for HD res).
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

I'm curious to know if anybody actually went ahead and tried this,
it seems like a fun idea, but unfortunately I don't have the time in my hands to be experimenting with things like these :(



-Kinky
 
Re: Brand + Piercing = Bonesaw?

demon/undead dmg doesnt work with merc.
 
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