"Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

[jel]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Builds and character equipment should be optimized for FHR / FCR breakpoints and thus if Bone does not provide any increased speed modifier, other items should be used in place to hit a certain frame, such as Spirit Monarch (35% FCR), 2 x 10% FCR Rare Rings, 10% FCR Rare / Crafted Amulet, Spiderweb Sash (20% FCR) + Trang Gloves / Magefists. I don't see why FCR is necessary on Armor, although there are a few armors that give FCR including Fortitude. This in turns frees up space to use other non-FCR gear, such as 2 Stones of Jordans.

Almost every item in the game has alternate set of stats has a found on another item. +2 Skills on Bone can be found on 2 Stones of Jordans. 20-30% Faster Cast Rate on Vipermagi can be found on FCR Rings. If we are wearing Bone and lacking in FCR it would not make sense to keep boosting +Skills by wearing Stones of Jordans. Likewise if we are wearing Vipermagi, it becomes unnecessary to wear additional FCR rings.

Another point to mention, if we calculate damage throughput of various Armors, we are given the choice between high damage, low FCR, or low damage, high FCR. That sums up the essence of playing style. However, I'd like to add that +150 Mana will largely increase the amount of Bone Spears, Summons, and Corpse Explosions a Necromancer can deal in battle, and thus will allow a Necromancer to stay much longer in battle. That factor cannot be neglected, either.

A non-teleporting summoner doesn't need FCR, and most likely not FHR as well. Unless you run in front of the army, like many on b.net does as I've seen, but that seems to me to be because they're too lazy to keep on resummoning a Fire Golem in front of them to aggro whereby their other minions will go forward.

@AnimeCraze again unless you use engima or teleport charges FCR doesn't really matter. And saying poor equals not affording bone whereby rich equals affording Enigma and there's nothing in between makes no sense. Beside if you've read the last few posts you've commented it should be pretty clear the cheaper armors don't overshadow bone. Many are better if you compare effectiveness with cost, though an elelel bone would overshadow pretty much any of the more expensive now armors, as now it's more effective for the cost. As I've tried to explain I'd much rather have +30 resisst and 7 pdr on top of that than +45 defense.

 

[LordC]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Just to clarify something here, Jel:

Do you actually have a character that uses Bone?

The RW seems to combines three good mods- +2 Skills, CtC Bone armor, and +30 Resists- with a bunch of random mods that are either unrelated or unnecessary. And it's expensive. So it would seem to be a pile of (insert favorite word here). But you never know for certain until you've used it.

I've never used it, of course, because I have better things to spend my Ums on. So I would really like to hear from someone who has incorporated it into a completed build. What other gear did that character use? Why was Bone optimal for that character?

Also, concerning the utility of the Bone Armor mod:
All Necro builds use Bone Armor as a 1-point wonder, if at all. Summoners have better things to spend points on and don't really need the armor generally, but hey, with Bone, you're basically getting 160 free hp every time you're bombarded by arrows, so why not. Bonemancers have higher synergies and +PnB skills, so their self-cast Armor may be higher than lvl15. However, by the time Bone's CtC goes off, their self-cast armor is probably already well below the 760hp threshold, so it's still a worthwhile mod for them. In fact, were this RW cheaper and lower in level, I think this mod could be quite useful for any class; randomly regenerating 160hp in the heat of battle's never a bad deal.

 

[MichelRPG]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

the ums simply make the runeword too expensive. If it had been one um instead of 2, it would have been better. Hell, it could have been given one Um and 20 resists since runewords increase the powers of the runes when combined.

Then look at the other great low runes which could have been of more use;

Tir - +2 mana per kill
Nef - Defense against missiles (something necros DO have to worry about)
Eth - Mana regeneration
Hel - Less requirements so the necros are able to wear the "heavy" armors too.

I would have gladly seen any of those implemented and have the price of a bone drop significantly. Bone, like the other 1.11 runewords isn't supposed to be a high-end game finishing armor (its possible though). But for the price of two Ums you'd expect something a bit more... impressive. This runeword requires expensive runes to produce a useful, mediocre armor.


[edit]

While looking at the other 1.11 runeword armors.. I can honestly say there are only 2 there that don't suck huge dong; the amazon armor (since its cheap and has decent stats and triggers), and the Assassin armor (which has awesome triggers). But look at the other armors.... 2x pul? Mal?? GUL for a horrible paladin armor? Come on. Blizzard just screwed us on that area.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

@jel Only the very rich will waste 2 Um's for a subpar armor. The moderately rich will trade the 2 Um's for a shako, AoKL, marrowwalk, torch, etc. instead of just spending it on the armor. (as well as saving the Um's to trade for enigma or something) So, the in between will use the same armor as the poor people.

I do also want to have 30 resist and 7 pdr instead of 45 defense, but I am not going to sacrifice 2 Um's for it, when I can use a socket quest and stick 1 of the Um in a shako or something, in addition to trading the Um's. As I have said, I would make it if it is Ral/Ort/Thul. I would also have made it if it is El/El/El, but I am not going to make it if it is Sol/Um/Um. I am not as rich as you, and cannot afford to spend 2 Um's in a subpar armor. Anyways, it seems you fail to realize that this armor is only marginally better than a cheap armor like vipermagi (if you do not want the FCR, and inferior if you do), but it is many times more expensive. Furthermore, the armors above it are significantly better, and not significantly more expensive than bone. (an enigma is only 2 HR's, and with the current rate, 2 Um's is 1/2 enigma) So, it is better for one to make a small sacrifice to use the cheaper armor a little longer until you can use the expensive one.

As for what you said about ElElEl having the best cost ratio so everyone should use it. Well, it is not the best armor. The insanely rich will be able to afford more, simply because they are that rich to afford the very best, regardless of cost ratio (just look at how much they pay for +45 life skillers). If ElElEl is both the very best, among with the best cost ratio, then nobody in the right mind should think of anything else. Sadly, bone does not fit under the term very best or best cost ratio in any definition I can think of.

And if you actually made a build that uses Bone properly, please tell me the build, among with why should Bone be the best choice at for it. I want some playing experience, as I find there is little point in theorycrafting if the fact that its inferior mods does not justify wasting 2 Ums do not convince you.

@MichelRPG: Treachery is great. 45 IAS + fade is insane. I think I also made Peace once. Other than that......, I do not know why they created those armors. I mean, what good does +2 barb skill do?

 

[MichelRPG]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

the +2 to barb skill isnt that bad. But a VERY small chance to cast howl? Taunt? Why not a chance to cast Warcry on being hit? At least that would be useful.


I think it would have been more interesting if those armors were given weird other-class CTC's. For example a barbarian being able to cast bone armor. A necro being given +5 warmth. A paladin having a chance to cast Grizzly. You know, stuff thats not entirely useless, just not spectacular but while having a funny twist. Naturally the price of the runes would still have to drop, as no grizzly is worth a gul

 

[jel]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

I can see we're not really moving in this debate and the weather is too good for me to worry about someone believing something I disagree with about some pixels in computer game, so I think I'll let this debate rest for a while here, though there are some things you guys have written that'll comment as they're really obvious not to be true, which I believe you'll agree with after I've notified you.

I think it would have been more interesting if those armors were given weird other-class CTC's.

But you can very well mix it up, I often use treachery on many of my warriors, fade is supreme, but for poison necromancers, the venom really boost poison dagger.

Peace is often used on paladins and barbs, especially those lld'ers I believe (though not remembering the lvl requirements), so being in the right environment you'll often see people with valkyries without a zon being close.

I've seen many non necromancers running around with bone, for the fun factor of having bone shield up and having others writing that they hack and should be banned.

You can even have bone shield, cyclone armor and fade combined if you wish. Not something you see every day. Though all this is of course luxury for the rich and not something a serious adventure can use to much.

@jel Only the very rich will waste 2 Um's for a subpar armor. The moderately rich will trade the 2 Um's for a shako, AoKL, marrowwalk, torch, etc. instead of just spending it on the armor. (as well as saving the Um's to trade for enigma or something) So, the in between will use the same armor as the poor people.

Again you're assuming twinked play and for twinked play you're most probably right. Though all those items you menioned do really lack idr, which would make souls a pain when there's a unique.

Tir - +2 mana per kill

Insight tops this.

Nef - Defense against missiles (something necros DO have to worry about)

I've never seen a Necromancer that didn't run while playing pvm unless he was teleporting, but then he was most likely using enigma. When you run your defense isn't 0, it's less than that actually, as the game completely ignores your defense (where it normally would at least garantee to remove 5% of the hit checks). This means unless you're only walking (as a necromancer doesn't go melee and often tries to avoid being hit by running around) your defense won't matter at all.

Eth - Mana regeneration

Insight tops this.

Hel - Less requirements so the necros are able to wear the "heavy" armors too.

Again defense isn't needed so the only result is lower running speed.

Do you actually have a character that uses Bone?

Does that matter? I know the game mechanics well enough to know if some mods are good or ont.

The RW seems to combines three good mods- +2 Skills, CtC Bone armor, and +30 Resists- with a bunch of random mods that are either unrelated or unnecessary.

Read the previous posts, idr and +mana are certainly have value.

So I would really like to hear from someone who has incorporated it into a completed build.

Read a few posts above, one of my posts, there you have a build suggestion, using bone.

All Necro builds use Bone Armor as a 1-point wonder

I don't, unless I'm going to invest points in bone wall.
Though your argument of why is valid, your just not right saying everyone does it, it's not needed, but it helps quite a bit if you automatically casts it mid combat, because it's not something you can expect to be able to yourself, and it wears out way to quick otherwise.
Though I guess that's pretty much what you're saying it's not quite easy for me to see.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Yes, I assumed trading play. Read the above on no trading play and see how unlikely you are actually going to cough up with 2 Um's.

On your reply to other people, you are literally double standarding here. Insight also tops 150 mana.

IDR will not save you from unique souls. From what I read, the physical damage of souls ie 40~100, and uniques will do significantly more than that.

 

[jel]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Yes, I assumed trading play. Read the above on no trading play and see how unlikely you are actually going to cough up with 2 Um's.

I've answered that, remember to take hellforge into consideration, it makes the probability of getting 2 um's to be 1/121, which is quite a lot, 2 um's every 121 game from hellforge alone, then take countess into consideration, and sure you can be mf'ing, but I know I'd be countessing as you won't have to sacrifice gear and you can do it on /players1 for most effectivity.

On your reply to other people, you are literally double standarding here. Insight also tops 150 mana.

No +mana increases the effect of insight, as mana regeneration is a variable of maximum mana, the mods I commented don't.

IDR will not save you from unique souls. From what I read, the physical damage of souls ie 40~100, and uniques will do significantly more than that.

It'll still save you, as it'll reduce what the unique do to what a two single normals would do, which by far isn't enough to get you down.

The thing about idr is that you expect to get hit, but not a lot, so it's extra safety, the same goes for resist, the necromancer usually doesn't expect to take numerous of attacks, only a few by surprise and when those by surprise don't get you, nothing will.

 

[SeCKSEgai]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

I'm surprised this thread is still going (as I end up bumping it by posting).

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

I've answered that, remember to take hellforge into consideration, it makes the probability of getting 2 um's to be 1/121, which is quite a lot, 2 um's every 121 game from hellforge alone, then take countess into consideration, and sure you can be mf'ing, but I know I'd be countessing as you won't have to sacrifice gear and you can do it on /players1 for most effectivity.

I think our opinion of a lot differs here. non-repeatable chance of 1/121 is not a lot by any means in my book.

 

[jel]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

non-repeatable chance of 1/121 is not a lot by any means in my book.

You've a point there. I guess I'd have to agree with you, playing untwinked, if you find a vipermagi, which you may do most of the times (or any other decent armor) you should use that, it's not very often one gets the chance to make a bone armor, though if possible, and nothing better is present it would be a valid choice, as stuff like shako, homunculus and what you can trade for an um in these days aren't something you'll find when playing single player.

When playing twinked I agree with your point about bone is most likely not one of the steps on the ladder from stealth/smoke->enigma.

 

[Darker Realm]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

A non-teleporting summoner doesn't need FCR, and most likely not FHR as well. Unless you run in front of the army, like many on b.net does as I've seen, but that seems to me to be because they're too lazy to keep on resummoning a Fire Golem in front of them to aggro whereby their other minions will go forward.

That is so true, a summoner should not require as much time placed in FCR as management of the entire army. The +150 Mana will keep enough mana for resummoning a mana-intensive Fire Golem or spamming chains of Amp / CE Chains. Some are lazy because with a small mana bulb they have to wait some time for mana to regenerate and also click 1 2 3 or 4 on the belt...And then they have to point and click where they want the Golem! Perhaps it is too difficult for some individuals.

 

[Darker Realm]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

As I have said, if you are poor, you won't be able to afford all those FCR on the other slots, so you want the armor to have FCR. If you are rich, there are better armor than bone.

It's just that bone gets completely overshadowed by better and cheaper armor.

Is this some kind of Catch-22 for using the armor Bone, as far as wealth goes? You remind me of the old game Castlevania, but this time you discourage individuals from using a specific Necromancer-Class armor than a generic mage caster armor like Vipermagi.

 

[AnimeCraze]

Re: "Bone" runeword is a ripoff :/...

Is this some kind of Catch-22 for using the armor Bone, as far as wealth goes? You remind me of the old game Castlevania, but this time you discourage individuals from using a specific Necromancer-Class armor than a generic mage caster armor like Vipermagi.

I do not know about what is usable or not in Castlevania (especially not when I don't know which one you are talking about), but I guess in a sense yes it is a Catch-22.