Bert and Ernie, the dual dueling Pats


New member
Sep 5, 2003
Bert and Ernie, the dual dueling Pats

Here's a dual pat thread of two semi-clone PvPer's Liq and I have been working on for a while.

Here's liq's write up:

My main focus in Diablo these days is creating optimized hybrids (usually for the purposes of dueling). CRG and I were talking over MSN about character variants not often played and what we could do to blend two characters together. We lept around different character classes before finally settling on a Whirlwind/Thrower hybrid. The skill points looked pretty straightforward. We would create the characters and each try and max the following: Battle Orders, Weapon Mastery, Throwing Mastery, Whirlwind, and Double Swing (this is a %dmg synergy to Double Throw)

We named our guys "Bert" and "Ernie" after the Sesame Street duo. They are not clones, but definately brothers in arms. The gear we each used differed greatly. This is mostly in part to us just having seperate stashes and different items to call on. The other main reason had to do with how we wanted the characters in general. CRG focused on +life/defensive items while I concentrated on +dmg/offensive items. We each had to weigh what we wanted in our characters and optimize accordingly. We each had wild and somewhat unconventional choices.

My gear:
Grief Phase Blade and Azurewrath s/Um- I borrowed my druid's Grief and my retired wolfbarb's Azure. I thought it was a nice combo and it looks quite sexy. I also use a -req Stormshield for opponents I need block against. (I do realize that an Oath might be better because of the dmg boost from Fort, but I wanted to stick with phase blades to keep the strength low)
Dual Ethereal Lacerators- Part of the reason for building this character was because I had 2 of these ethereal badboys. OW, nice dmg, replenish, and most importantly: Amp dmg.
Fortitude Archon- I wanted exceptional dmg and saw nothing better than this armor. 300% ED, enough said.
Nosferatu's Coil- I knew I wanted 10% slow target (not to mention that sweet IAS bonus) so I built this belt into the character from the get-go.
Dual Ravenfrosts- +36 dex, 441 AR, 40% Cold Absorb and the all important CBF. (I used just 1 raven and a dual leech ring during leveling)
Highlords- Scaling Deadly Strike, +1 skills, and lightning resists. I really wanted to use this ammy rather than a partial angelics combo for the AR.
Gore Riders- Great boots. Every duelers favorite. I was originally going to use Hsaurus boots/belt combo for the sweet AR bonus but couldn't forsake my Nos Coil.

How then did I boost the AR if I skimped on the Hsaurus and Angelics combo? (In PvP, a mandatory 12K++ AR is needed) This was the main problem with my gear that I had to overcome. Here was my answer...
Sigon's Helm and Sigon's Gloves- It is little known that together these items have a scaling AR set bonus. It's not the 12 per lvl of angelics or the 10 per lvl of Hsaurus, but its a comfortable 8 per lvl. They also offered +10 str, 10% life leech (great for PvM), and 30% IAS. I socketed the helm with a (poison resist) 15% IAS jewel as well. With 75% total IAS, this character threw his axes at the fastest breakpoint, something I had wanted to achieve.

CRG's gear was equally odd. He built his character with knockback as a number one priority. (Something I did not.) He swore by it in the leveling process and got it via a Giant Skull. I was skeptical on how it would work with whirlwind in duels but would have liked it if my gear could have managed it. For pure PvM, I'd think Cleglaws Pinchers would be a real nice glove choice. CRG also used a .07 Valor, dual Death Cleavers, and some other stuff I did not. We both agreed on the Lacerators though. Although the range is poor, the Amp dmg is too good to pass up in duels.

At level 87, these are my skills.
Whirlwind- 17
Battle Orders- 20
Sword Mastery- 20
Throwing Mastery- 14
Double Swing- 14

His stat points are standard, enough str to hold items, enough dexterity for max block with SS, and all the rest in vita. His important stats are as follows:

Life: 3363 (pretty low for a barb, but I didn't invest in super godly charms for him and he doesn't have +6 to warcries with Echoing switch like most)

Defense: 5517

Defense with stormshield and Chilling Armor from fort: 9128

WW Attack Rating (Enchant): 10199 (15662)

Throw Attack Rating (Enchant): 7333 (12698)

WW damage: Hard to say with Grief, but seems good

Double Throw damage: 1K-7K, 1K-6.5K[/list:fd5b00c894]
His resists left something to be desired, but most of SP PvP is melee oriented and I didn't notice much of a problem in PvM. I might regear for elemental chars (throw on a pdiamond mosers or something like that)


So liq and I like hybrids. A lot. We haven't seen a barbarian hybrid in a long time (I know Zhao has one, and Strijdje had a thrower a long time ago). Thus I bring you, Bert and Ernie, the twin Pvper's.

Both are WW barbs designed with lacerators on switch. Because both chars lack enigma, we're using them to combat ranged characters. Also, a quick throw at a charging character could trigger amp, and thus WW gets so much sweeter.

Bert's stats

Stats: (with gear)

141 STR
193 DEX
541 VITA

5019 life (4001 w/o Valor)
588 Mana
7348 defense w/o shield
(not sure on def /w shield, but 75% blocking)
(Above numbers are w/o echoing weapons used)

274% DC 'um'
280% DC /w ed jewel
183 Lacerator
(151 lacerator to accompany once I go RWM/RRM)
07 Arkaine's Valor (+2.5 vita/clvl, +2 life/clvl, isn't BO-able)
+33 str 2 soc G-Skull (/w 2x IAS jewels)
+15 str drac's
39/15 Dungo's
20/183 raven
20/244 raven
Cat's Eye
Gore Rider
-req SS in stash

11698 AR for WW
~570-1780 WW damage

(XXX) AR for DT (shoot! didn't write down!)
~280-2050 DT damage (/w 183 lacerator)

Above numbers are with enchant.

4x iron/steel of vita
7x sc of vita
7x mana/life sc
2x iron sc of balance
4x Sharp GC of sustenance
3/20/2 str

~85% double damage (counting crit strike)
60% OW (25% from off-hand axe)
25% CB
68% OW
~32% DS
25% CB

20 WW
20 Axe
20 Throwing
1 BC
2 Inc. Speed (25%, iirc)
2 NR (40%)

The build is premised on using lacerators to trigger amp when an enemy approaches, then use WW (offensively/defensively, etc) once amp triggers and enemy is close. I can also WW /w lacerators, but the amp will not trigger then. Res is the only immediate weakpoint, with 20/-20/-10/-30 going for me. However, with SP PvP so melee-oriented, I thought I could get away with it.

Giant Skull is key to this build. It will knock around anyone who gets near me, and helps disorient smiters. It may knock people out of WW range, however, it also stuns them slightly, letting me get back into killing. This works on both axes and both lacerators.

I played throwers in v1.09 to much sucess, especially the LLD ones (1k life, 500 PvP damage b/c of bug, all at slvl 21). I hope this char is gets the same success.


I'll add more later, but I've got to go to class.
Very nice, I hope building the hybrid doesn't take away the spark from both normal builds. IMO the amp on lac's shouldn't be the reason to pick the axes. As mentioned is the range low and (IIRC..) you can get better speed with spears. It's probably true that once you get amp to trigger your WW will be deadly. The LCS is wrong on the double throw damage (as you might know), it's lower then it reads. I hope the AR is sufficient, but it looks ok.
The main thing I was bummed about when I had a pair of nice ethereal javelins is that they take so long to repair. I don't know the repair speed on the axes, but having to wait 5 minutes for your stack to replenish between duels isn't great.
Good job on the builds. Give those smiters/ww barbs a run for their money.

I agree with Sint, the only bummer with eth throwing weapons the time to wait for them to repair when you do multiple duels. I kept an regular Demon's Arch in stash and switched with that when needed.
A little explanation of the gear now that I have time to think.

Being non-RWM, these are the best combo of weapons outside of beast/botd a la TUB. I realize the range limitation (can't reach corner of screen), but like liq said, the amp is too good to pass up. Also with melee, they need to get close anyways.

07 Valor
Absolutely ridiculous life, even +2 skills and FHR to boot. If this thing was boosted by BO, should be able to clear 6.5k. The nice defense bonus is nice. I also thought about using a duress to really pump up the OW percentage, but I thought the life outweighed it. I think Fort or Enigma (sadly) is the best choice of armors here. Other ideas were shaftstop vs. smiters (still an option).

All standard barb gear. I would have loved to have had the slow target from Nos, but I made the character without thinking of having that as a swap. I thought about using Hsaurus's combo for more AR.

Liq didn't review his entire gear plans with me (especially helm/gloves), so those are a huge suprise. I knew about the AR combo, but I have only tried to exploit it once, with a zealot who was trying to maximize AR (10x steel GC's, Hsaurus boots/belt, 2x angelic rings/ammy, sigon's helm/gloves).

Giant Skull
I am a firm believer in Speederlander's logic (see assy forum), and he advocates the use of this helm against melee with his ghost, especially when fighting smiters. This will allow me to whirl right at a smiter (not triangles) and if I hit, they get KB'd, hopefully in the direction I am traveling, where they get hit again. The KB also keeps a Grief PB smiter our of range, something I am big on (I'd never build a range 2 WW'er, if I could help it).

I also see the helm as a way to increase damage. If the first axe hits, it is more likely that the second axe will also. This gives more opportunities for amp to trigger and OW to set in (remember, OW is additionally penalized for ranged attacks).

Cat's Eye
back in v1.09 I ran an S/S tweaker barb that had about 200% fr/w: 40 from inc speed, 30 from War Trav, 30 from cats and 20 fr/w sc's. I'm big on mobility (see DarkCloak for an example) and I couldn't pass this down. Also, because I needed to get 3% more IAS out of the gear and I wanted to use Drac's, I needed either Cat's Eye or Highlord's. I already had high DS percentages, so I saw it as unnecessary. In hindsight, I should have socketed the g-skull with one IAS jewel and something else (need 33% IAS for my BP).

The use of cat's eye also requires me to use 2x ravens to make up the AR I lose from Angelics.

That's quite some uber h4x0r gear in there! The builds seems solid, now we should wait dueling results from Bert and Ernie :scratch:
To address some of the concerns so far. The repair time isn't that bad (1 in 4 seconds) and I never ran out in PvM. I have a regular set of Lacerators that I will keep in stash in the off-chance I do run low, but really, I don't think I will since the range is so limited. As for the AR, 12.7K Double Throw & 15.6K WW attack rating seems good enough to me against all but the massive defense chars. I guess I'll see in the moor. I was a bit surprised by CRG's skill placement. He focused on maxing skills rather than splitting them across the board. It's really kind of neat to see how two people came up with 2 entirely different characters based on the same idea.

I thought the character was half fun to play and would recommend it (not a druid, but still gg). I am unsure how he will do in PvP, but am always blissfully (and perhaps ignorantly?) confident. But how he does doesn't actually matter, it was more of a side project to keep me busy while I took a break from my main PvP project. The play style was pretty simple. I would warcry myself, run into a herd and use Double Swing until I triggered Venom on Grief, then I'd whirl until dead. Next mob I'd throw my lacerators until a got a good chunk Amp'd and then whirl until dead. Rinse and repeat. (Only problem with Lacerator is that sometimes that lame monster flee mod casts and scatters your herd)

I really think this character build has a lot of potential as a great melee candidate for a 99'ers quest. I've played wolfbarbs and a whirl/wolf hybrid and have found that whirling kills enemies much quicker than Feral (especially when Amp'd or Decrep'd). This build also has a *real* answer to the Iron Maiden curse with throwing weapons. I didn't die often and only once died to IM when I was being impatient and decided to whirl. Also, there are a lot of hard points in Double Swing which makes for an awesome secondary melee attack when you run into mana burn bosses. (It costs zero mana and is pretty darn quick). The gear would need to be rethought for a melee 99 quest, but I honestly think this build would work better than the wolfbarbs that are so often put on pedestals.

Here's a pic of my character in throw mode.
I was a bit surprised by CRG's skill placement. He focused on maxing skills rather than splitting them across the board. It's really kind of neat to see how two people came up with 2 entirely different characters based on the same idea.
We'll chat about this later.


These looks like fun and interesting builds guys, I imagine it will be hard to aim with those throwing weapons in pvp.
My Doom is always ready for some bvb action:evil:
Giant Skull
I am a firm believer in Speederlander's logic (see assy forum), and he advocates the use of this helm against melee with his ghost, especially when fighting smiters. This will allow me to whirl right at a smiter (not triangles) and if I hit, they get KB'd, hopefully in the direction I am traveling, where they get hit again. The KB also keeps a Grief PB smiter our of range, something I am big on (I'd never build a range 2 WW'er, if I could help it).

To clarify, knockback doesn't work on a smiter if he's already smiting. That's why in smiter fights the two pallies end up standing toe to toe with neither being pushed back by the other's smite. Plowing directly into a Grief smiter as he's standing still and smiting will get a WW'er splattered regardless of knockback. What it helps with is when a smiter is walking around trying to position himself as the barb/assassin is trying to clip whirl.

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