99 theorycrafting and stuff like that

There's been too little activity here lately so time to let those optimizing brains of you'll cracking a bit.

Had some (read: too much) spare time at work last week which got me thinking a bit about 99-ers. Ofc there's still my goal for getting all classes, but other 99 candidates also seemed fun. Thus i thought of my FA zon which i had a blast with during a previous MFO. After that i got thinking about melee 99-ers and checked out the few that already did just that and this is where you guys come in.

Ofc there's WoRG with his impossible time travelling gear. Problem for me is that i don't trade so if i wanted to do that (and it does look like soooo much fun!) it would take forever.

The other one is Asmo's Schaeferdin. His gear is attainable. However he doesn't seem very optimale (which he even mentioned in this 99 thread). (i left out DarkChaos' holy shock paladin as it seems to be suboptimale)

So all this got me thinking: What would be the most optimale melee build to get to 99, using minimal or no timetraveling gear (as i haven't done much of that, so all time spend in patch 1.xx i'd have to add to the time spend making a 99-er. Abundant use of 1.13 HR's however is no objection.)?

For that it seemed to me that Asmo's paladin could do very well with some gear modifications. Haven't done any extensive research, but i got to something along the lines of:

Build: Zealot

Weapon: Last wish (or would grief still be better?) (BO on switch)
Shield: Hoz (perhaps exile?) (BO on switch)
Armor: Enigma (Forti does more dam and has resists, but i like to have tele when having to do many, many Baals)
Amu: Highlords
Helmet: Crown of ages? (what in sockets? cham maybe?)
Rings: Dualleech + ravenfrost (replace raven with something else if cham in headgear)
Belt: SoE
Gloves: LoH or crafted with CB?
Boots: Gores

Merc: Might if no Last wish, otherwise defense?
Armor: Forti? Or maybe Glad bane like Asmo?
Weapon: Reapers?
Helmet: Not sure, Asmo had shako, but maybe vamp gaze instead?

Thing worrying me most with this build/gear would be PI's. How to deal with those without losing too much time?

Other than that: Any gear advice? Or am i totally missing a much better suited melee build for the task? Any help is welcome. And as mentioned earlier: please just keep in mind that time travelling stuff could be hard to come by for me so keep that to a minimum.
 
You really love Baals don't you? :P I'm sorry I haven't experience with Zealots and Baal runs. (But Grief/Death Zealot would probably win there, I guess).

If I were to go for a melee 99er, however, I would definitely do the last lvl running Nihlathak. Zerk or Conc Barb and Paladin as Smite/Zeal. It would save tons and tons of time. Maybe even 97-99?

Gripphon has shown really nice leveling videos for WW Barb doing Baal waves, it was in "Show your game playing videos" thread iirc.
 
Not really. Not after 17K+ :p While running MFO i also considered doing some other project like those 25K AT's from pharphis (?) just to see if i can catch that Tyrael's.

Oh great, don't i look like a fool now. Next on the sept 99 list actually is a conc barb which is currently running Diablo. Hadn't even occured that that is a melee toon as well. :oops:
Hadn't really considered Nihlathak as i consider running him to be highly dangerous. Though i guess i could give him a try on the later lvlvs, just after lvling up so i don't have much to lose and see how it goes. My kicker had trouble targetting Nihlathak, but barb does have advantage of howl to get stuff out of his way.

Hmm, whirling is fun. I'll definately see if i can find that vid to take a look. Thanks for the suggestion!
 
You might want to consider Tesladin. He is probably a tad bit better than physical zealer minus LI lister runs. Still, Tesla can put enough points to Zeal and his CM should deal *some* dmg together with infinity merc. Don't think you'd have to park Lister unless he is LI+HF.

A bit creative 1.13 only setup.

Weapon: Grief (PB or BA no clue, but PB might be better when we take decrep into account; needs checking)
Shield: Spirit or Phoenix (no clue about zeal + firestorm procs and how it works)
Armor: Enigma
Amu: Highlords
Helmet: Guil'd face Cham'd
Rings: 2 x fcr rings with enough leech to cover you (probably want dual leech + high life leech)
Belt: Arach
Gloves: LoH
Boots: War Travs (not sure if they are better in terms of damage but it's close to gores and 50MF is sex. your pick)

CtA/Spirit switch.

Fill inventory with enough ress to feel safe and gogo offensive mods. Also make sure you have couple cold dmg scs to help you hold Baal.

Give Merc Reaper's, Blackhorn's Face (Cham) and CoH.
Will make him durable to gloams, and will provide slow together with arach, blackthorns, cold dmg instance from both reaper's and your charms + decrep on top of it. It should make baal not to teleport (nagi used same amount of slow for his kicker).

Gets you 75 fcr to tele to throne, gets you 48 fcr to catch stragglers and scattered skeletons and everything unless phoenix offers so much dmg it's impossible to pass. Two rings worth of leech should cover you.

/brainstorming
 
Nulio, i'm not sure in what universe a hammerdin is considered melee. :p:D Besides that i do like hammerdins. Actually so much i already have a 99 hammerdin. Doing it again is too ridiculous. Even for me. :rolleyes:

I'll properly read frozz reaction tomorrow as i'm too tired to really take it in now.
 
I guess even watching football I should read things more carefully, I didn't read you wanted melee only :p
 
Cyrax said:
There's been too little activity here lately so time to let those optimizing brains of you'll cracking a bit.

Had some (read: too much) spare time at work last week which got me thinking a bit about 99-ers. Ofc there's still my goal for getting all classes, but other 99 candidates also seemed fun. Thus i thought of my FA zon which i had a blast with during a previous MFO. After that i got thinking about melee 99-ers and checked out the few that already did just that and this is where you guys come in.

Ofc there's WoRG with his impossible time travelling gear. Problem for me is that i don't trade so if i wanted to do that (and it does look like soooo much fun!) it would take forever.

The other one is Asmo's Schaeferdin. His gear is attainable. However he doesn't seem very optimale (which he even mentioned in this 99 thread). (i left out DarkChaos' holy shock paladin as it seems to be suboptimale)

So all this got me thinking: What would be the most optimale melee build to get to 99, using minimal or no timetraveling gear (as i haven't done much of that, so all time spend in patch 1.xx i'd have to add to the time spend making a 99-er. Abundant use of 1.13 HR's however is no objection.)?

For that it seemed to me that Asmo's paladin could do very well with some gear modifications. Haven't done any extensive research, but i got to something along the lines of:

Build: Zealot

Weapon: Last wish (or would grief still be better?) (BO on switch)
Shield: Hoz (perhaps exile?) (BO on switch)
Armor: Enigma (Forti does more dam and has resists, but i like to have tele when having to do many, many Baals)
Amu: Highlords
Helmet: Crown of ages? (what in sockets? cham maybe?)
Rings: Dualleech + ravenfrost (replace raven with something else if cham in headgear)
Belt: SoE
Gloves: LoH or crafted with CB?
Boots: Gores

Merc: Might if no Last wish, otherwise defense?
Armor: Forti? Or maybe Glad bane like Asmo?
Weapon: Reapers?
Helmet: Not sure, Asmo had shako, but maybe vamp gaze instead?

Thing worrying me most with this build/gear would be PI's. How to deal with those without losing too much time?

Other than that: Any gear advice? Or am i totally missing a much better suited melee build for the task? Any help is welcome. And as mentioned earlier: please just keep in mind that time travelling stuff could be hard to come by for me so keep that to a minimum.
Click to expand...

DarkChaos' tesladin had IM to worry about, besides that, it is pretty optimized. Take the points he spent on FoH(his gloam solution), and put them else where. This build is very safe, only requires one piece of time traveled gear(beta CM - which is reasonably cheap), and is a very fast baal runner. He used a CoH, and was able to get in the 3:30 per baal range. Enigma would be doable, but you'd lose out on lots of resists, and there's not a lot of room left for picking them up. If you have great charms, this might be a worthwhile option/sacrifice. 10 frame casting if you tele with your switch out.

Zaphodbrx made a physical zealot using dreams, you can read about it here. I've tried this build, and it's pretty good. He uses an eth reapers on his merc, but I used either a beta CM polearm or Infinity. Dreams have the chance to cast confuse, which gives you a bit of CC(always nice when playing a zealot) and shortens the length between baal waves. It's harder to squeeze fcr into this build, so I dislike using enigma with it, but it's there if you insist on using it. Dreams give a good chunk of resists, so CoH isn't needed for that - and the +skills aren't great either. Fortitude fits nicely into this build by giving: some life, some resists, good damage boost, and some added defense thanks to ctc chilling armor.

frozzzen linked a video of a pure physical zealot, the video is a smidge old, but it goes over some gameplay and gear at the end.(The 1.07 charms, can be swapped out for some +max dmg/+AR charms from the current patch.) The gear you have listed looks like you're maybe leaning towards this sort of zealot. Guillaume's Face is a must for the helm slot. CoA is one of my favorite items in the game, but g-face is just too good to pass up. You won't be kicking out any curses, so delirium on merc is a good idea to help speed up baal runs. Smite is a great skill to switch to for killing baal, one skill point is enough investment - grief will take care of the rest.

With IM gone, all of these builds are quite fast/safe for baal runs.
 
Cyrax said:
Not really. Not after 17K+ :p While running MFO i also considered doing some other project like those 25K AT's from pharphis (?) just to see if i can catch that Tyrael's.

Oh great, don't i look like a fool now. Next on the sept 99 list actually is a conc barb which is currently running Diablo. Hadn't even occured that that is a melee toon as well. :oops:
Hadn't really considered Nihlathak as i consider running him to be highly dangerous. Though i guess i could give him a try on the later lvlvs, just after lvling up so i don't have much to lose and see how it goes. My kicker had trouble targetting Nihlathak, but barb does have advantage of howl to get stuff out of his way.

Hmm, whirling is fun. I'll definately see if i can find that vid to take a look. Thanks for the suggestion!
Click to expand...

Instead of video I found this, which is probably what I was thinking anyway. Maybe the fastest build/way to take barb to 96-97? There's another post about exp/time on the next page also.

Conc barb doing CS is definitely melee, sounds interesting! Now that you are there go ahead and try out throw barb :P

As for Nihlathak I never got to properly test running him while I had a chance with 98 paladin. Shouldn't enough crowd control (reaper's/delirium merc) and good PDR on char take care of most problems?
 
I like Phoenix a lot... when it's made in an eth 1.07 glorious axe. ;)

onderduiker said:
When skills with a casting delay are cast by Chances to Cast, no active skill can be used for 11 frames after the action frame. While this will not interrupt an individual Zeal sequence, it can cause a delay between sequences.

For example, maximum Zeal attack rate with a one-handed weapon is 4/4/4/4/8 (4+4): if a Phoenix shield's 40% Chance to Cast Level 22 Firestorm on Striking is triggered by the fifth attack in frame 20, the delay expires at the end of frame 30 (frames 20-29 and 30 totals 11 frames).

So if it's triggered by the last attack, the interval between Zeal sequences is 30 frames; if it's last triggered by the fourth attack, it's 26 frames; otherwise, it's 24 frames (since the delay expires before the sequence ends).

In the absence of blocking, the chance of it being triggered by the last attack is chance to hit (CTH) * chance to cast (CTC); the chance of it being last triggered by the fourth attack is CTH * CTC * (1 - (CTH * CTC) ), where 1 - (CTH * CTC) is the chance of the last attack not triggering it.

So with maximum 95% chance to hit and 40% chance to cast, the chance of it being triggered by the last attack is 38% (0.95 * 0.4); the chance of it being last triggered by the fourth attack is 23.56% (0.38 * 0.62); and thus the chance of it being last triggered by earlier attacks is 38.44%. This means average interval between Zeal sequences is (0.38 * 30) + (0.2356 * 26) + (0.3844 * 24) = 26.7512 frames.

Thus with 95% chance to hit average attack rate is ~11.5% (1 - (26.7512/24) ) faster without 40% Chance to Cast Level 22 Firestorm on Striking, so in terms of DPS a Phoenix shield may be a false economy if it does not increase DPS by ~11.5% or more.



The same 11 frame delay applies when actively casting a skill which has no casting delay after a skill which has one.
Click to expand...

Phoenix does give a LCS damage boost, but the delay will more or less cancel that out. The added redemption aura is nice, but for a zealot, not needed. A physical zealot is not very skill point dependent, so dropping a few points down the tree to get it, isn't that big of deal.
 
Well, with that setup Phoenix gives 28-32% increased dps. With -11.5% hitrate it can be even 20% damage in the end. It's significant, but it's mostly used as excuse to use something new rather than Spirit that is used on 90% of the characters.

+10 max FR and 5 LR isn't bad, and would probably make you immune to hydras/venom lords and help a bit vs souls. I think it's matter of preference in the end but I'd go with Phoenix if only because of *Abundant use of 1.13 HR's however is no objection.* clause.
+ such shield can be used on fire based auradins for -28 fr and style.
 
WW Barb @ Throne until 96/97 -> Include Baal until 98 -> Respec to Conc/Serk for Nihla. Barb is the easiest/safest char vs Nihla.
Tesladin same path but can probably include Baal on an earlier level. I think even the most optimized phys zealer is slower than those two. In any case you should build around Enigma.
Someone who has tested those builds properly should do the 98 comparison, IIRC Nihla without Shrine is ~25k and Baal
 
Thanks for all the reactions everyone.

I could try both the conc and the ww barb since i have both. Heck if i'm crazy enough i could try dual lvling them. ;)

As far as the paladins go it sounds like i underestimated the tesladin and overestimated the physical zealot. I do have a tesladin somewhere but i only patted him so he'd probably need some better gear if i were to try that.

Always nice to hear the opinions of all those experienced people out here. Gives me some food for thought. :)
 
@Cyrax - I just reread your post and saw the part about using a lot of 1.13 HRs was fine.

I was wondering if one more thing to consider is the Dual Dream Bear Sorc. Pure melee, lots of fun, and Froz demonstrated it could hit 2:30 Baal run fairly easily. Sure, you can use backup spells, but it can also easily be pure melee.

I'm a terrible player and I clumsily did a p8 Baal run in a little over 3 mins (didn't include teleport in vid)... with Baal at p8 as well. That's how much of a newbie I am: I thought Baal runs @ /p8 meant /p8 for Baal as well.
[youtube]aLipNkK_lEs[/youtube]
With Baal at p3, I can get under 3 min (should take a new video), and I can't come close to that with any of my other characters. Another thing to note is that in above video I didn't drink any potions at all, which makes it a fairly carefree toon to play. I actually find the character is actually LESS dangerous in higher players settings because Life Tap (drac's) has more chance to trigger, thus needing less potions.

What do you guys think? Would this be a viable build to try to get to 99? I don't think I can ever get to 99, but I'm at 91 now, so I might try leveling a bit to see how far I get...
 
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I said using HR's was fine. That doesn't mean you HAVE to pick one of the most runeheavy chars possible. :D

Might be a good choice. Still need dream for RW grail and running some char with dual dreams is something i have been...dreaming about. Ok lame pun is lame, but it has been on my to do list.

A few questions though:

What would be ideal set up? I've checked a few in the pat/mat collection but they had different gear and they seemed to be more of a 'just made for a bit of fun' type of char rather than being build like 'let's get this girl the best gear and show what she can really do'.

In your vid i saw you switching gear because you had a regular weapon, BO weapon and shifting weapon. Personally i hate constantly switching gear and i think i'd go crazy if i had to do that 5.5K runs long. How would she do without BO for example? Would having dracs (life tap) and the confuse from dreams be enough to keep her safe without BO?

And the question one should ask for every melee char: Would dolls be a problem? (both with and without BO)

Apart from that: BBS you should totally lvl her! And add her to the quest for 99 table. Even if you don't (plan to) make it that far it can be a good incentive to get her just a little further. Plus the thread can use the activity. ;)
 
I actually added that Beast/CTA switch buff to the video simply to demonstrate it: I had already buffed right before teleporting and didn't need to buff again. It's not too annoying.

The bearsorc is fine without BO since Beast gives huge life boost; it's only the merc that is flimsy at p8 without it. For me, the sturdiest set up was this:
Amulet: Mara’s Kaleidoscope
Helm: Dream Bone Visage
Weapon: Griswold’s Redemption, x4 Shael
Shield: Dream Hyperion
Armor: Chains of Honor Superior Wire Fleece
Ring 1: Ravenfrost
Ring 2: Bul-Kathos’ Wedding Band
Belt: String of Ears
Boots: Doesn't really matter. I used Sandstorm Trek for FHR breakpoint.
Gloves: Dracul's Grasp
On switch: Call to Arms / Beast in 1.07 Eth Berserker Axe / Spirit

Merc used - Delirium, Upgraded Duriel’s Shell (Um), Infinity in 1.07 Eth Thresher

This is the non-max block set up. There are other options, but Dracul's was the linchpin for me. With 5fpa attack speed, life-tap is fairly reliable.

The CTC Confuse really speeds of Baal waves--Delirium on merc and then the same CTC on both dreams is pretty effective.

Somewhere on the forum we had a discussion about it where more knowledgeable people chimed in on alternate builds. Trying to find it...
EDIT: Here it is, posted previously in the thread, page 22 and so on
http://www.purediablo.com/forums/threads/99-theorycrafting-and-stuff-like-that.836408/page-22

Froz gave a couple of interesting options I'd like to try out sometime.

It is a very safe build. I played through Hell on p8 and only died twice. My previous record was like... 15 deaths at p1. First death was from teleporting into pack of baddies without BO or bear form. Second was from Serpents in Nithalak's temple while amped.

So I guess the question would be: if you really don't want to switch for BO and Bear form, then how can we get the merc sturdier? And would it be worth giving up the Delirium helm for something with more leech or other set up that would help keep him alive?
 
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Also, I have bear sorc on my mind because I just respec-ed her back from Trav Blizz Sorc, which is what she did for a bit. I took this LCS screenie last night while respecing with a nice prebuff. 65k max damage.
View attachment 2614
But lol attack rating because I hadn't put those charms in yet.
 
Why is the dream in a hyperion? I've seen it in different shields now, but what would be most effective? Note: For most of my chars i go vita > max block.

Why did you pick treks over gores? Does she do so much damage that missing CB doesn't matter (for Baal for instance)? Or is the FHR too much needed?

As for your question of making the merc sturdier: I'd say you could go with vamp gaze (DR and leech) and either forti or CoH.
 
Cyrax said:
Why is the dream in a hyperion? I've seen it in different shields now, but what would be most effective? Note: For most of my chars i go vita > max block.
Click to expand...

Just to put in what I did with mine, I made Dream in a Kite Shield for the lowest % block possible. Bears have horrendous block rates to the point that I'd honestly rather just kill things faster for safety than rely on a super slow blocking animation.

And as far as the boots, yes, the build really does so much damage that 15% crushing blow isn't going to make much difference. (For what it's worth, your merc will have Infinity and its 40% CB.) BBS showed a LCS with ~60k damage, mine is "only" 45k since I went for safety/convenience, wearing a Wisp Projector, Ravenfrost, String of Ears over Arachnid Mesh, no CTA, etc. (going to add 1.07 LoH instead of Dracs for complete absorb madness) 45K still more than gets the job done. I think I'm wearing Aldur's Boots just for the life and faster run walk.
 
Yeah, for my Baal runs I go as defensive as possible, and my LCS is something like mid 40s--43-46k I think. 65k was just for funsies with Arach/Soj/BKWB/Magefist and prebuff.

I made the Dream in a Hyperion when I was still debating the option of max block, but Liquid is absolutely right: the Bear has a terrible block rate, and I went max vita in the end, so a lower block rate shield would be better.
Also, since the bear has a crazy fast 5 fpa attack, why interrupt that with blocking? The only things that really threaten my Bear are those which bypass block anyway, like the snakes.

I felt the FHR helped me a little bit with Lister and his boys, but I'm not really sure if that even makes sense. I used Gore's some, but couldn't tell much of a difference either way. I don't really think boots are a very big factor here. Actually, some nice tri-resists rares might be a perfect fit. I think that's what zaphod used on his IIRC.
 
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