99 theorycrafting and stuff like that

[zaphodbrx]

Even with a baseline 20 FB/LS/DS, FB is plenty good. It's definitely more efficient against gloams (especially with 'Infinity'), and it's good enough for LIs if you coordinate with your mercenary and drop a few DS. I suppose the benefit of kicking LIs would just be looking awesome while killing versus throwing some "weak bombs".

Life Tap... seems highly unnecessary on such an awesome crowd control class, but that's just personal opinion. I would rather just get some FCR (and trap damage!), since you don't seem to have any/much. >_<

In any case, good luck. Doubt we'll ever agree what is better/etc.

^.^ I don't think you read my posts. I have level 38 traps and 65 fcr on my build, with an option of switching some charms and sacrificing empty space to get lvl 40 trap. if one uses beta bkwb and beta cta it would be lvl 42 trap. Plenty trap dmg. In any case I don't have those amazing +5/+6 trap claws and no inclination to spend 20+ hours shopping them.

K/T is much more than having kicks as an ''LI killer', it is an entirely different playstyle, imo the pure-T build is just a bad version of the pure-lite infinity sorc which is something I'm not a fan of to begin with.

Actually lifetap is very well suited to k/t sin. It's not 'necessary' in the sense that 'infinity' and 'call to arms' are not necessary, but makes life a lot easier and there isn't any reason not to use it. And since the glove ( and boot ) slot basically add nothing to trap dmg, Dracs ( and upped Gores ) go into those slots without compromising traps at all. It's rather neat. Assassin 'crowd control' is overrated. No matter how well you try you can't get all the gloams under one CoS. Rarely even half of them. Not to mention there are so many situations where it happens that you wasted your CoS on a couple of gloams or witches and then not have it available while fighting a big group a little further on. Lifetap allows you to leech off gloams and that's just so good when it procs, keeps merc alive against cursed lister, just amazing all round.

Just an update, I have done about 100 WSK+CS runs ( p8 fullclears of CS and WSK mostly ) and reached lvl 93, joining my 'level 93 sept' ( one of my goals is to get lvl 93 with one of each class, 4 are done ). This character will now be parked until I get that Jah for enigma and then do more serious Baal running with the tp-to-throne p1/p8/p3 strategy.

I'm running CS quite successfully with a Multizon (Faith + Fort based, using Fleshripper + Stormshield on switch to take down Big D up close). I'm wondering would it be possible to create a WSK Bowazon by combining Multi or Strafe with FA. I imagine redirecting the skill points I have in CS and Decoy into FA and CA would do the job skill-wise, but what about gear-wise? And yes, I'm well aware of the Fishyzon, but my aim is to use bow skills only. Would such a character be viable, and if so, what gear would be the best to use? One problem I can see is that the WSK won't allow me to get away with none of the resists maxed like CS does.

My FA/strafe zon uses 'Silence' crusader bow, +2 skills and high manaleech to keep FA going via strafe and great CtC crowd control effects, also +75 resall which makes equipment much easier to organize for max res. Switch is a windforce for fighting CI's ( more strafe dmg and knockback ). Doesn't have the resists though, but CI's are rare and don't use elemental attack for the most part. She can manage p5 WSK, most of the time. You might have better luck with 'faith'. As always, Baal is sort of impossible to kill for a bowazon. I have tried fleshripper+hel'd stormshield but it still just sucks and takes forever.

Edit: your other equipment will depend upon whether you want to focus more on FA or on strafe.
Fortitude ( strafe ), 15csd ormus/CoH/other ( FA )
Ias helm ( strafe ), Nightwing's veil ( FA )
Reapers merc (strafe ), Infinity merc ( FA)
Make your choice..

 

[Jason Maher]

Really, the question is moot until I reach level 98. Then it's a question of will I reach 99 quicker running Baal rather than Big D? I'm thinking probably not, given how much longer the runs will take.

 

[NagisaFurukawa]

^.^ I don't think you read my posts.

^.^ I don't think you know what you're talking about.

More seriously, ditching your gloves opens the door to a higher FCR breakpoint and/or more damage (standard fare FCR gloves + circlet) or even something like Laying of Hands to free up some IAS/resist/damage needs. (Unless you use Azurewrath, you'll want/need some IAS when ditching 'Treachery'.)

K/T is much more than having kicks as an ''LI killer', it is an entirely different playstyle, imo the pure-T build is just a bad version of the pure-lite infinity sorc which is something I'm not a fan of to begin with.

In terms of being efficient, kicking is essential only useful for helping kill off act bosses. You can build your character to make kicks stronger, but all it does is take away from the actual meat of the build. Also, every build is just a bad version of a javazon.

Assassin 'crowd control' is overrated.

So is a 5% CTC. In that same time, FB/DS would have killed off most of the threat.

I understand that you want to make kicks an important part of your offense for killing in general, so it's fine. K/T is definitely more entertaining, so just build as suits your own preference.

--------------------------------------------

It will be an extremely long journey for a bowazon either way, so you could try out WSK/Baal runs if you want. My guess is you won't be able to kill fast enough to 1) make it more productive than CS, and 2) keep your mercenary alive against certain waves/packs, but it's worth it just if you need the variety.

 

[helvete1]

Just reached 97 with hammerdin. What's the best approach from there? Leaning towards continuing to kill every random boss + seals and dia all at /players7... but mainly because my grail is short of so many TC87 items... haven't done any real testing as to what is fastest.

 

[Kimppi]

I'd recommend p7 for 97 and p1 seals/ p7 Diablo for 98. Roll a map with 4 shrines on the way for the last level.

Reasons, what reasons? That's what I did so it must be the best choice.

 

[helvete1]

*sigh*.... that's around 1.1k runs 97-98 at the current exp average... going to take forever. At least I don't die.

 

[zaphodbrx]

^.^ I don't think you know what you're talking about.

More seriously, ditching your gloves opens the door to a higher FCR breakpoint and/or more damage (standard fare FCR gloves + circlet) or even something like Laying of Hands to free up some IAS/resist/damage needs. (Unless you use Azurewrath, you'll want/need some IAS when ditching 'Treachery'.)



In terms of being efficient, kicking is essential only useful for helping kill off act bosses. You can build your character to make kicks stronger, but all it does is take away from the actual meat of the build. Also, every build is just a bad version of a javazon.



So is a 5% CTC. In that same time, FB/DS would have killed off most of the threat.

I understand that you want to make kicks an important part of your offense for killing in general, so it's fine. K/T is definitely more entertaining, so just build as suits your own preference.

I wrote a long winded reply which got lost somehow but basically what you're saying is just nonsense.
If you're saying that fireblast-trapsin is better than K/T in either Baal running or general p8 WSK clearing then how about make a video or something to back your claims. K/T is not an 'entertaining' build. It is, IMO, the most powerful and versatile assassin build out there. Equipped with stormlash for Baal runs or Azurewrath for an area with unknown spawns like WSK- undeads, LIs, gloams, etc.

I'll just close out the discussion by saying that NO K/T sin goes without dracs. They are king. Which is something you would know if you actually played the build, and I think you haven't. Laying of hands is just silly, for any type of kicker or trapper.

 

[NagisaFurukawa]

1) I am saying that Fire Blast kills gloams faster. Those are your primary threat as far as consistent lightning immunes when running Baal. It is also serviceable in the case that you run into a separate LI. Even a low level Fire Blast with a high level of + skills does a very good amount of damage, and gloams have extremely low innate fire resist. 'Infinity' just kicks it up to an even greater level.

2) Why bother with a video? It's common knowledge a standard lightning trapper with similar gear has equivalent or better run times than that displayed by your K/T.

3) Entertaining does not necessarily entail weak. Many people find a javazon incredibly entertaining. It must clearly be weak! I agree K/T is theoretically the most versatile assassin build, more so than ordinary trappers because of the ability to deal with act bosses and potential multi-immunes.

4) Laying of Hands is silly for a trapper. For a K/T, it is a viable option if you require IAS (which a Fade build with Stormlash will require), especially if you have a 1.07 version. It gives more damage than any other gloves, aside from very broken CB options. Drac's is both unreliable and unnecessary. If you are playing a pure kicker, I can understand, but a K/T has better options to deal with nastier enemies.

5) I've built just about every variety of kick/trap possible, most of which reaching levels greater than your own current character. Having said that, I don't really see why such a thing became a requirement for commenting in the first place.

As I've already said, just play to your own preference. I'm merely sharing what my own experience tells me. As it will apparently most likely appease you, I will refrain from spreading my idiocy in your threads beyond this post.

Good luck with the leveling ~

 

[zaphodbrx]

1) I am saying that Fire Blast kills gloams faster. Those are your primary threat as far as consistent lightning immunes when running Baal. It is also serviceable in the case that you run into a separate LI. Even a low level Fire Blast with a high level of + skills does a very good amount of damage, and gloams have extremely low innate fire resist. 'Infinity' just kicks it up to an even greater level.

Azurewrath wielding k/T kills p8 gloam in two kick cycles, sometimes one. I can't see fireblast beating it in any way. Lifetap is simply a plus, if you get into nasty situations involving triple boss packs and other monsters like frenzytaur ( good luck trying to beat that with fireblast ).
Gloams are not a threat while running Baal cause you will be following p1/p8/p3 strategy and on p1, you don't need to do anything apart from spamming death sentry. Really. No kicks or fireblast is required.

2) Why bother with a video? It's common knowledge a standard lightning trapper with similar gear has equivalent or better run times than that displayed by your K/T.

I'd still like to see a video though, not necessarily by you.

4) Laying of Hands is silly for a trapper. For a K/T, it is a viable option if you require IAS (which a Fade build with Stormlash will require), especially if you have a 1.07 version. It gives more damage than any other gloves, aside from very broken CB options. Drac's is both unreliable and unnecessary. If you are playing a pure kicker, I can understand, but a K/T has better options to deal with nastier enemies.

Laying of hands is pointless. k/T is a low-physical damage build, which means lifetap is much more suited than anything else. Also, I've done the ias calculations. Stormlash with ias jewel in helm ( shako ) reaches 3 frame kick, and CtA phaseblade on the switch also reaches max trap laying speed.

5) I've built just about every variety of kick/trap possible, most of which reaching levels greater than your own current character. Having said that, I don't really see why such a thing became a requirement for commenting in the first place.

Sorry, it just felt like you were commenting on a build you never played, going from the apparent surprise about Azurewrath being a great item, and the disdain for dracs which I still don't understand why.
Bye.

 

[frozzzen1]

Zaph, it's really common knowledge that pure trapper is better. I've checked your vid and I must say it doesn't look bad, but compared to pure trapper it's really slow. Even with great gear it will be slower.

And you spouted bunch of nonsense in this thread that I won't touch cause it would take me hours to write this post.

1. Trapper is fastest assassin Baalrunner. Period. If you tried and failed to build her properly that's ok, but don't claim K/T to be number one cause it isn't. I have assassins lvl 96, 95, 95 and I tried multiple leveling methods on way there. Pure trapper is best for that. My runs were 3:15 - 3:30 and that includes time to make game, tele to throne, clear throne room, kill waves and Baal. Sometimes I kill LI Lister sometimes not. If he is extra fast I park him, if he is holy freeze I park him etc. Your video was 3:30 JUST killing waves and Baal.
As reference, 5 traps on my trapper kills all waves except Lister's. If I position myself and traps properly I can kill also Lister's gang with only 5 traps, but it happens ~10% of cases. Usually it takes one recast and they are dead within 2-3 fires of new traps.

2. Those "weak bombs" are actually very strong. Much more then you would imagine. My trapper has ~5.8k dmg fireblast. So let's put it your way. You need one or two kick cycles to kill p8 gloam. Since you use Lash on Baalruns, and you use p1/p8/p3 Baalruns I will take that you used AW in scenario where you tested two kick cycles vs p8 gloam. So with lash it would be even slower. Furthermore, you lay traps first, then DF into enemies that are out of reach, meaning traps would be firing already so I won't take your 2 cycles kill one lulzy gloam even as granted.
What you should take for granted is that avg p8 gloam has 15.900 life and 0 fire ress. When Infinity aura kicks in I my weak bombs will do 10730 dmg to any gloam firing at 9 fpa speed. And that's with splash dmg, very notable vs gloam pack, but much less when they are spread around. At p1, how you should run Baal, it kills Boss gloams in maximum 2 shots if I'm unlucky. Still weak bombs? Also bear in mind that I can lay 5 LS, toss couple shock webs around and then bomb everything with my weak bombs. My weak bomb does more avg dmg then your LS, and in absence of kicks I can toss them all day every day without even getting close to enemies.

3. This struck me hard...assassin crowd control overrated? Dude, assassin has best cc of all classes in game. With CoS and MB you can be safe in any situation. And irony comes in form of you using both CoS and MB in your video. It would be funny to see how you would beat EF/HF/LI Lister or other such variants without mindblast. You would melt dude.

K/T is more fun build and better vs bosses, I will admit, and it's better for Nihilatak and some other targets possibly, but for Baal trapper wins 10/10 times. I will do vid of trapper running Baal one day, but not before MFO or possibly in close future. Truth is out there, you just need to find it.

Bear in mind there are other nonsense in your posts, but most of all, know when it's time to back out, learn to accept other peoples opinion because they are trying to help you. Just because you made your build doesn't mean it's best, doesn't mean it's most efficient build around. You built it ok, I will say that. There are still some things I don't like about build, but why bothering with advices when you ditch them without even considering it's tested approach? Really not worth it.

Spoiler

Also note to Joanna. 2:0

 

[zaphodbrx]

Bear in mind there are other nonsense in your posts, but most of all, know when it's time to back out, learn to accept other peoples opinion because they are trying to help you. Just because you made your build doesn't mean it's best, doesn't mean it's most efficient build around. You built it ok, I will say that. There are still some things I don't like about build, but why bothering with advices when you ditch them without even considering it's tested approach? Really not worth it.

Actually, I didn't see any helpful posts ( apart from EasyG some time ago ), just a bunch of whine as to why it wasn't as 'good' or 'efficient' as fireblast trapper ( which I am still skeptical of btw ), and so I had to respond to that obviously..
If you have any advice on improving the build I would welcome it.
Note: I don't use any time travel item.

 

[frozzzen1]

I have to say though, that my motives were not so much 99-running but to make an [highlight]'ultimate assassin'[/highlight] , which could go anywhere, anytime, regardless of monster spawns, and at p8 Hell.

That's good, you can start by respecing her to pure trapper and learning to play her properly. K/T will never be better and fact that you are skeptical of it is 100% irrelevant. It's a fact.
Make pure trapper(with FB maxed), and use 2 assassin/fool's RT of 40IAS 3LS / 3 DT claw with 2 Ber runes for her kicking. It will be enough to apply crushing blow and in all other slots should be focused toward pure trapper setup. That will be your *ultimate assassin* and DT will be only to kick Baal couple times before weak bombs start to dish more dmg then your kicks anyway. Fireblast will be stronger in any other case.

 

[zaphodbrx]

Ok I'm tired of arguing this nonsense.. Especially when ridiculous stuff like claw with 2 ber runes is brought in.
What I meant was if you had any ideas on improving k/T sin as it is, atleast at my gear level it is still the ultimate assassin for me, ten times better than anything with fireblast. All you are saying is 'the build sucks and make fireblast trapper' which is basically useless whine not helpful advice.
It's also hard to take anything seriously when you pretend your are an authority on everything.

 

[frozzzen1]

[highlight]Ok I'm tired of arguing this nonsense..[/highlight] Especially when ridiculous stuff like claw with 2 ber runes is brought in.
What I meant was if you had any ideas on improving k/T sin as it is, atleast at my gear level it is still the ultimate assassin for me, [highlight]ten times better than anything with fireblast.[/highlight] All you are saying is 'the build sucks and make fireblast trapper' which is basically useless whine not helpful advice.
It's also hard to take anything seriously when you pretend your are an authority on everything.

K/T assassin is still trapper with kicks as supplement. In order to make proper character your main dmg source must not suffer too much, hence orienting towards trap dmg (you do it good with trap switch). Also that claw with 2 Ber runes isn't nonsense. If I had such claw I'd happily toss 2 Ber runes into it if I wanted to make gg K/T assassin. Bottom line is that your trap dmg shouldn't suffer due to your commitment to kicks, you can take is as less extreme then my example.
It was meant as advice for you that you would get your XP faster and get that 93 faster overall. But if you still claim that kicks > FB (when you have conviction aura around) then I can conclude satisfactory hypothesis: you don't know how to play. But that's ok zaph, you will grow in knowledge about this game as we all did. In time you will realize that people on this forums are trying to help you when they say your ways are wrong.

You are just like that kid, whining when parents are taking him to hospital even if it's good for him. When those kids grow a bit they realize it's for their own good. So will you. There is no other whining you mention in this thread. Just attempt to help you realize what's better for you. I hope what you said in first highlighted part is true.

/thread

 

[Mungojerry1]

frozzzens (and nagisas) advice and authority comes from mad skills and countless hours farming stuff. not many more experienced people around here. i guess scrcrw tops out and some other oldtimers, but how you have avoided this is remarkable. Just chill out with the stuff and the stuff. This is probably only forum on the net with people actually being totally friendly and helpful.

 

[zaphodbrx]

It was meant as advice for you that you would get your XP faster and get that 93 faster overall. But if you still claim that kicks > FB (when you have conviction aura around) then I can conclude satisfactory hypothesis: you don't know how to play. But that's ok zaph, you will grow in knowledge about this game as we all did. In time you will realize that people on this forums are trying to help you when they say your ways are wrong.

You are just like that kid, whining when parents are taking him to hospital even if it's good for him. When those kids grow a bit they realize it's for their own good. So will you. There is no other whining you mention in this thread. Just attempt to help you realize what's better for you. I hope what you said in first highlighted part is true.

/thread

Boy your condescending tone sure convinces me, thank you.
Fireblast might or might not have > kick in damage sure, but kicks have leech/manaleech and lifetap, which is the deciding factor. Not leeching basically means continously having to pop potions ( and pick up potions ), which is one of the reasons I don't like pure-lite infinity sorc build ( the other reasons are unbreakable LIs, specially when they are PI as well, and complete lack of block/defense/life/crowd control/whatever ). It's power can't be denied, but the low survivability can be really aggravating when one plays barbs and pala's half the time. Eg, yes Diablo goes down very quickly from static and lightning, but he can almost one hit the sorc if I stand next to him when amped. k/T sin doesn't have that kind of problem. As I've said before, for me the fireblast trapper seemed like a bad version of the lite sorc, while k/T was closer to melee character but with very powerful ranged attack, that is the appeal of the build to me.

 

[Smancer]

Boy your condescending tone sure convinces me, thank you.
Fireblast might or might not have > kick in damage sure, but kicks have leech/manaleech and lifetap, which is the deciding factor. Not leeching basically means continously having to pop potions ( and pick up potions ), which is one of the reasons I don't like pure-lite infinity sorc build ( the other reasons are unbreakable LIs, specially when they are PI as well, and complete lack of block/defense/life/crowd control/whatever ). It's power can't be denied, but the low survivability can be really aggravating when one plays barbs and pala's half the time. Eg, yes Diablo goes down very quickly from static and lightning, but he can almost one hit the sorc if I stand next to him when amped. k/T sin doesn't have that kind of problem. As I've said before, for me the fireblast trapper seemed like a bad version of the lite sorc, while k/T was closer to melee character but with very powerful ranged attack, that is the appeal of the build to me.

I sure don't know a lot about this stuff. But if you don't use crowd control spells that the assassin has then you need that leach. However if you use the crowd control spells, then there is no need for leech.

It is not a matter of popping potions.

+ mana after kill refills your mana right?

 

[helvete1]

I don't think +mana/kill works with any type of minion.

 

[zaphodbrx]

I sure don't know a lot about this stuff. But if you don't use crowd control spells that the assassin has then you need that leach. However if you use the crowd control spells, then there is no need for leech.

It is not a matter of popping potions.

+ mana after kill refills your mana right?

Ofcourse I use assassin CC skills. It's not anywhere near enough though.
Can't count how many times it's happened like this: I used CoS to shut down and kill a couple of gloams/frenzytaur. Then move along and see a big double boss pack of gloams and witches and wow. CoS is on a 17 second timer. GG.
I am getting better at recognizing these situations now, and for a small/not too threatening pack I keep the CoS firmly in reserve, and instead just kick them in the face. Lifetap obviously is awesome if it goes off, but even plain leech is good too.

And the CC skills STILL don't work at all against champions, bosses or act bosses.
If I remember correctly, the point at which I changed from fireblast to k/T was when facing a champion pack of lightning immune frenzytaur in the glacial trail or one of those areas. Just couldn't keep the merc alive no matter what and fireblast did negligible damage on them while they pounded on me with fists of death and me with no leech or lifetap.

In 100+ runs of WSK+Chaos p8 fullclears there wasn't a single situation like that, where I couldn't kill the enemies no matter what, not a single monster parked, and no deaths. Only a very few number of times had to retreat to town to resurrect merc. You realize what that is? It's an ultimate assassin. Infact the ultimate character- no other character I have could do that, even on my barb I skipped the PI witches because they were very annoying to berserk 1 by 1.

I also couldn't figure out a way to do act bosses either. Hmm let's see. Either stand next to B/D and take their incredibly powerful melee hits, or stay away and get hit by tentacles/LHODs. Nice. Also, merc would get killed really easily, due to the boss focusing them and no lifetap.

At some point, I just decided to hell with the whole thing and just go physical + leech because that is what works for me. IMO , if a build doesn't have leech, it had better be really powerful, or safe, or something special. Exception is made for non-cookie cutter of course, but a trapsin isn't one of those and didn't cut it for me.

About the +mana per kill thing. It's not anywhere near enough, though I don't know whether it works for minions anyway.
I use homonculus ( +5 mana per kill ) on summon necromancer. It works, sort of , and summon necro doesn't use that much mana anyway but still I have to pop potions. There's also the option of insight iron golem, but I haven't explored that much.

I use Silkweave ( +5 mpk, small boost to mana pool ) on sorc and javazon. It definitely makes a difference, but still not anywhere near enough, mostly it's just potion popping time. There are some high mpk stuff in 1.07, but I am following a strict no-time travel policy so that's not for me. 'Phoenix' shield for redemption aura is highly suggested, and that'll be on my to-do list for some time.

Edit: Something that had been bugging me but I just realized what it was. Yes, that comment about 2 Ber runes in a claw.
You see, the point of kick vs bosses isn't primarily to apply crushing blow. It is to distract to boss from the merc and allow him to apply HIS crushing blow via infinity. Leech and lifetap keep both merc and character alive easily. Using stormlash knocks off big chunks via static, the CB on it is just a plus. Prior to obtaining stormlash, I used to swap out my 'rift' for a 'black' flail and going to town for that. Then one day I decided to just use the 'rift' itself on p8 Diablo. Surprisingly, there was almost no difference in the killing speed at all.
So in that sense, using two Ber runes in a claw is really silly. These types of comments make me wonder how you guys presume to be an authority on anything.

 

[Cyrax1]

Trying to stay out of the k/t vs trapper debate, but i'd like some pointers on playing a pure trapper.

Have been trying to run Baal (p1) with her a bit yesterday, but besides the fact that her gear (mostly her merc' gear) need some tweaking i have a few questions.

1. Which aura to use? I'd like to use BoS for faster traplaying but right now i just need fade to keep resists above 0. If BoS is preferred, then where do you get resists from?
2. Playstyle. How do you tackle the waves most efficiently? Right now i lay traps in between and use CoS once the wave comes down. Somehow i feel i should be using MB more. Now i'm only using it if my merc gets into trouble vs Lister (and lots of times i just forget to use it).
3. How to tackle Baal. Merc with infinity seems great to get good damage, but in the 99 thread DC (?) talked about his merc having Kelpie which also seems like a good choice as it pretty much disables him from doing anything but waiting for death. Which approach would work better?

Besides better use of skills i hope better gear and some lvls help my merc survive better as right now he dies a lot. Even on p1. Any pointers on areas i missed are welcome too.