2021 Spring RFL Results thread: Moo Moo (Round One)

[PhineasB]

Here are the Round 1 results. Thanks to everyone for great participation and prompt results.

Spoiler: RFL Round 1 Results

D2DC (10 pts)
Jah - 18.3
Jah - 18.3
Jah - 18.3
Jah - 18.3
Cham - 27.5
Total - 100.7

Swamigoon (8 pts)
Zod 71.8
Ohm 10.1
Ist 7.5
Um 5.1
I only found four qualifiers
total: 94.5

Nano (6 pts)
Jah 18.3
Jah 18.3
Lo 15.1
Sur 13.7
Vex 10.6
Total: 76.0

Pb_pal (5 pts)
Ber - 20.5
Sur - 13.7
Ohm - 10.1
Ohm - 10.1
Ohm - 10.1
Total: 64.5

Vildecor (4 pts)
Lo 15.1
Lo 15.1
Sur 13.7
Vex 10.6
Gul 7.1
Total 61.6

Luhkoh (3 pts)
Jah - 18.3
Sur - 13.7
Vex - 10.6
Vex - 10.6
Gul - 7.1
Total - 60.3

maxicek (2 pts)
Gul 7.1
Ist 7.5
Ist 7.5
Vex 10.6
Cham 27.5
Total 60.2

Saracen85 (1 pt)
Mal 5.0
Um 5.1
Gul 7.1
Cham 27.5
Total 44.7

CaseyJones
PUL - 3.4
PUL - 3.4
MAL - 5.0
IST - 7.5
LO - 15.1
Total: 34.4

mulligan
Cham 27.5
Total 27.5

ffs
Vex 10.6
Mal 5.0
Um 5.1
Um 5.1
Total: 25.8

Terroriffic
Pul 3.4
Mal 5.0
Um 5.1
Pul 3.4
Ist 7.5
total: 24.4

Babyhell
Vex 10.6
Gul 7.1
Um 5.1
Erf 0.0
Well 0.0
total: 22.8

hackedgainanda
Gul 7.1
Pul 3.4
Pul 3.4
Total: 13.9

art_vandelay
Gul 7,1
Mal 5,0
Total: 12,1

Kartongen
Um 5.1
total: 5.1

DNF – partial set, no qualifiers
m4ke
PhineasB

Quite a tight race at the top, and then filled in pretty smoothly below that. Unfortunately, quite a few people (myself included) didn't have time or were pulled elsewhere, so didn't complete full sets.

Thanks again to everyone who sent results so quickly. It was great to be able to post before work the morning after the round ends! Only missing results from two people, but not sure if they completed because I didn't see posts after sign up. I'll update if needed. Meet the Rune Finders thread is posted here.

Not the Zod storm of last year, but more Chams, and in general quite a haul of high runes. So congrats to everyone on the nice shiny rocks. RFL Rd 2, here we come!

 

[saracen85]

So... This is how you guys come up with the runes for Last Wish...

 

[maxicek]

Holy S!*% @D2DC - 4x Jah?

I'm happy to finish in the points, even if @Luhkoh beat me by 0.1

Thanks for running this @PhineasB - Looking forward to round 2

 

[D2DC]

Holy S!*% @D2DC - 4x Jah?

I was certain my game was broken, and was bound to end up with 5 Jah. I was so disappointed when a Cham finally dropped.

 

[art_vandelay]

I was just in it for the Kingslayer

 

[Pb_pal]

@D2DC - Great win, congrats! 4x Jah is insane, and it's always nice to see a 100+ point score.

Congrats as well to everyone else, some very good results in there!

--

Well, the rune drops weren't quite there this year for Klaus, but I had a great time anyways. I didn't pick up Rals/Sols or gems this time around etiher and opted for a more casual approach focused only on picking up rocks and charms (and mostly GCs at that).

Qualifiers: 13
Skillers found: 13
With the best being:

Chilling of Sustenance (+23 life)
Sounding of Sustenance (+31 life) -> This will look great on my MFO singer

Now, on to the rocks:

Things started off slowly for ol' Klaus this year. They were dropping fairly regularly, but the quality just wasn't there.

Run 21: Pul
Run 31: Ohm
Run 57: Mal
Run 86: Ohm
Run 155: Gul
Run 158: Ist
Run 173: Pul
Run 183: Um
Run 184: Mal
Run 203: Ist

And then FINALLY something at the higher end dropped on run 215:

Could this be the beginning of a late surge in top-end runes, allowing Klaus to squeak in to a top spot and steal the whole thing? No. It couldn't.

Run 240: Ohm

Though he had one last big one in the tank this year, on run 261 he got his final (and best) qualifier:

So that's that. Not bad but definitely not great by SPF standards. I would have preferred some higher-end runes obviously, but at least I got some decent utility ones in there. Now, the haul shot:

Congrats again to everyone on their new stones, and thanks as always for hosting @PhineasB

See you all in the Travincal.

 

[saracen85]

Congrats to the frontrunners.

For me, I can't even get 5 qualifiers..

I started the runs at level 90 and ended just shy of 91. So, from the XP bar, you can see;

- when I got my first qualifier
- how far apart they are
- why I started to not care towards the end..

Spoiler

 

[Luhkoh]

Holy hell. Congrats @D2DC, i would've killed for such a haul. I guess I should've seen this coming when he kept only complaining about his lack of NONqualifiers . Still I can't complain too much. With only (a great many) jahs left to complete the rwg, I'm glad I found one at least. Happy to earn a few tourney points anyways. Still in the game .

Was super fun, the two vex actually dropped on the same run 0_0. Last 3+ hours were completely dry. Was really hoping for one last drop to fill out a top 5 of all vex+, but I did much better this year than last year anyways. p5 cows/min were just under 140.

And the nonqual game was strong. Highlights:

• 1.36 cubed jahs
• 2 vex in 1 run
• 4x 7mfsc's, one with 6 cold res, one with 11 light res
• 143 flawless amethysts
• 3 hides, 2 hooves, 0 horns (@maxicek its probably not true, but i feel like i have NEVER found a sanders in cow level)
• 4os 3sk mat bow finally
• 45@ 9ed sacred targe
• steelrend #10 overall, funny to see from cows

I'll try and remember to add a few individual drop screenshots when I get home this even. Great job to everyone!

 

[Swamigoon]

Very well played, D2DC! I guess we both have virtual targets painted on our backs now, don't we?

These were my four qualifiers; the fifth highest rune that dropped for me was a Fal.

Spoiler: Thanks, Bessie!

(So, I suppose the time has arrived for me to start looking out for a good ethereal BoTD base. I have found a couple of six-socket items, but none yet are ethereal...)

I haven't placed this well in a competition round since Kestegs outscored me in the "Fashionistas" tournament, many years ago. Looking forward to the Travincal round! Hopefully I can get a worthwhile character ready soon.

[edit: I also grabbed a screenshot of the run counter]

Spoiler: Thanks, Silospen!

 

[Vildecor]

Now I know why I didn't see any Jah runes! Congrats @D2DC and everyone else as well! I was decently happy with my haul, though I would have liked to see some Jah or Ber runes for Enigma. I guess I'll have to squeeze them out of the council.

Spoiler: My Top 5

The Sur and my 2nd Lo were both found in the same run!

The Haul Shot:

My blizz sorc started at 86 and ended up about 30 runs shy of 91. I had a whole bunch of deaths due to sloppy teleporting, but things got quite comfortable near the end.

Some nice non-qualifiers found:

• 4 skillers (all plain or with +1 max damage)
• 4 7mf SC (the best being the steel (30ar) sc of good luck)
• Ethereal Gull, Ethereal Occy
• 2 Cow King's Hides...unfortuately no other cow king pieces
• 2 Realgear jewels of bliss (25ed/9 min and 28ed/10 min)
• Vermillion jewel of carnage (26 max dmg)
• Loads of elite bases

I've already used up one of those Lo runes for my first Grief (results will be in IFT) and have a Zealer pushing through NM to use it. See you all in round 2!

 

[maxicek]

Set 1 had a Jah about the 3h mark and then a scattering of lower runes made out the rest of the qualifiers.

Gul    7.1
Ohm    10.1
Ohm    10.1
Vex    10.6
Jah    18.3

Total    56.2

Set 2 followed a similar pattern to the first with a Cham early on from the Javazon. In terms of what I need, Set 1 was better as I got a Jah and a cubed Lo, but this is the one that went in for the scoring.

Gul    7.1
Ist    7.5
Ist    7.5
Vex    10.6
Cham    27.5

Total    60.2

Spoiler: Other Screenshots

All other finds are across both sets:

Skillers
Burning
Captain's
Captain's of Sustenance (32)
Chilling of Frost
Chilling of Life (19)
Fanatic of Craftsmanship
Graverobber's of Dexterity
Natural
Preserver's of Flame
Shogukusha's of Thunder

Other Charms
Amber of Balance
Emerald of Vita (16)
5% Shimmering of Inertia
Steel GC of Sustenance (120/30)

Jewelery
Mara's (23% RA)

Spoiler: Rare Jewelery

Beast Gyre
Ring
Required Level: 35
Fingerprint: 0x194ca94d
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+110 to Attack Rating
3% Mana stolen per hit
5% Life stolen per hit
+1 to Strength
Lightning Resist +17%

Bone Scarab
Amulet
Required Level: 30
Fingerprint: 0x4c8e475b
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+2 to Lightning Skills (Sorceress Only)
+10% Faster Cast Rate
+1 to Energy
+19 Maximum Stamina
Poison Resist +20%
Magic Damage Reduced by 3

Skull Spiral
Ring
Required Level: 66
Fingerprint: 0xf5016584
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
8% Life stolen per hit
+19 to Strength
All Resistances +9
Fire Resist +27%

Wraith Clasp
Amulet
Required Level: 30
Fingerprint: 0xe6949e1a
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+2 to Shape-Shifting Skills (Druid Only)
+5 to Minimum Damage
Fire Resist +35%
Poison Resist +11%
Magic Damage Reduced by 3
Poison Length Reduced by 75%

Sets
4x Cow King's Hide
1x Cow King's Horns
No boots but 2x Sanders

Uniques
3x Lacerator
Doombringer
Felloak
The Gnasher
Biggin's Bonnet
Vampire Gaze (Ethereal)


Socketables
30 Perfect Amethyst
200 Junk Jewels
17 Sol
30 Ral


Other
4x Rare Claws including 2x Fools / 40IAS Runic Talons but not with 2os or staffmods unfortunately.

Aerin Shield 42% RA
Archon Plate 502 4os
Archon Plate 522 2os
Kraken Shell 521
Kraken Shell 510
Kraken Shell 721 Ethereal
Kraken Shell 512 2os
Kraken Shell 503 2os
Kraken Shell 646 3os Ethereal
Kraken Shell 771 Ethereal
Kraken Shell 520
Kraken Shell 565 Sup 2os
Matriarchal Bow +3 4os
Sacred Targe 45 RA
Dusk Shroud, Sup 505
Heraldic Shield Sup 45RA 2os
Various claws of questionable use.

I didn't think I picked much up, but looks like I did

 

[Kartongen]

I was certain my game was broken, and was bound to end up with 5 Jah. I was so disappointed when a Cham finally dropped.

So you had 5 Jah's, and the Cham just beat it out of your top 5?

Anyway, regarding the RFL. I tried to set some modest expectations going in. I would be happy if I found a single etheral elite armour or polearm, cause my merc is in dire need of upgraded bases there. The only eth elite amour I found was also superior, meaning I could not even roll in in the cube.

Still, I managed to get a score at all, and some other nice things chaotically presented below.

A perfect bloodletter (in tristram)
A reapers toll (non eth, 215% ed 11% ll) (well, this was actually on meph trying to get gold for the merc
2 sol, 1 shael, 1 dol, 1 io and 1 um (and some lower grade (no ral )).
Gems: 1 perfect, 66 flawless, 10 chipped
Jewels: 15 tot (1 freedom, 2 fervor, 13 junk)
Smallcharms: 5mf 11 fire, 6 life 11 light (also 5 with cold damage, one of which had 3res@, which can be nice for cold duration)
Grandcharm: 1 skiller (fanatic +1 max dmg), steel GC 125 AR
Hawkhelm with +3 direwold +3 HotW (is this good for some summoner build? Or is it all about bear with them?)
2 magic runic talons and a magic thresher (to go into my "some day I will use all these chippies, but today is not that day" stash)
But the thing I was most happy to find in this RFL: friendship a .

 

[saracen85]

You know what grinds my gears? Not finding a single Cow Set piece throughout the whole runthrough. I still don't get how you guys managed to get multiple pieces, without killing the King no less.

Closest call was a Sanders Boot.

 

[CaseyJones]

Not much else to report since I laid out my other finds in the running thread. Looking to turn that Lo into my first Grief for a fana zealot. Not sure if he will make it far enough along for round 2 or if I will be running with my Blizz sorc from last year, Blizzness.

Impressed with everyones results! Always love seeing all the high runes when a round ends. Lets me know they do drop

 

[D2DC]

Very well played, D2DC! I guess we both have virtual targets painted on our backs now, don't we?

Haven't had a chance to get on the cpu all day, but I was pretty surprised this morning when results came out. Thought for sure there would be a couple Zod finds that bumped me down to 3rd or 4th!

Holy S!*% @D2DC - 4x Jah?

@D2DC - 4x Jah is insane

So you had 5 Jah's, and the Cham just beat it out of your top 5?

Just the four.

Yea.. I seriously believe that there is some connection between map/seed and item drops. My AT map seemed to drop a lot of Unearthed Wands, and usually from the same spawn point. This Cow map seemed to have a propensity for Jah and Ettin Axes.

I am curious if anybody else notices any drop "tendencies" along these lines? Or, do I just get a bit loony when doing target running? Perhaps, I am the only one that can see it because of a chemical that was released into my bloodstream when my radium diode implant dissolved?

I guess I should've seen this coming when he kept only complaining about his lack of NONqualifiers

No trolling. I was complaining about everything at that point. See below..

Set #1 - Fire Druid on players 1
I went HARD with runs on this set for a solid 8 hours. First runs were around 5 mins, which quickly dropped to below 4. After a few hours of running, I was getting low 3 min runs, with some sub-3 mixed in. With 40% of the set gone (and ZERO qualifiers), I knew my score was going to be a throwaway, so I committed to running a second set. Went another 4 hours at a bit more casual pace, but probably still around 4 mins/run, and still nothing to show for it but a Pul rune. At the 12 hour mark, I just said screw it and started doing nearly full clears, chasing down even 1 or 2 stray cows. Started picking up anything shiny to ID in-game, generally doing anything I could to just run out the clock as quickly as possible. RNG however had a nice troll up it's sleeve with less than 20 mins of run-time remaining:

??:?? - Pul 3.4
14:08 - Um 5.1
19:41 - Lo 15.1

Total: 23.6 pts

Set #2 - Fire Druid on players 1.. then players 5
All fired up to go again, I kept up a pretty brisk pace, logging my split times for each 25 run batch. I was impressed with how consistent I was! Stopped tracking times after I realized how badly I screwed up, but was able to get p5 times down a bit under 4 mins by only concentrating on larger groups. Sorry, no clue on total, or kills per min. Could probably get an estimate based on XP gained?

25  - 1:22  = 3.28 min
50  - 2:45  = 3.32 min
75  - 4:10  = 3.40 min
100 - 5:32  = 3.28 min
125 - 6:54  = 3.28 min
150 - 8:19  = 3.40 min
175 - 10:03 = 4.16 min

Vex + Jah in the first 5 hours, and I was really cursing RNG for missing out on that Lo from set #1 by less than 20 mins!

0:19 - Vex
4:59 - Jah
8:17 - Ist

I am pretty certain Ist was the final drop before it struck me to double check my players setting.. I was certain that I typed it in before set #1, but then maybe I re-rolled maps, or restarted my computer? Because, I was mortified, petrified, stupefied to see my run times collapse after "re-entering" players FIVE command around the 8 and 1/2 hour mark.. Times jumped up to over 4 mins!! What was going on?!?

** Disclaimer, knowledge with the potential for abuse **

Spoiler

Did you know that increasing player settings increases drop chances?!?

I KNOW!!! Because it seemed the minute I reset the players, it was like turning on a faucet. More drops of EVERYTHING!! SHOCKING!!! I was getting some decent charms, jewels, and ROOONZ!!

9:07 - Jah #2
9:55 - Ohm
10:02 - Ohm #2
11:01 - Gul
14:07 - Jah #3
15:18 - Um
16:42 - Jah #4
17:01 - Ohm #3
19:08 - Cham

Qualifiers were dropping pretty regularly after that point, every 1 - 1.5 hours. With a total of 12 qualifiers in set 2 (15 total), they seemed VERY top heavy indeed. Even the 3x Ohms and the Lo from set #1 didn't make the cut!

Spoiler: Drops

Spoiler: Haul pic

Misc Drops:
Here are some highlights of non-qualifiers:
Set 1:

• 416 flawless gems
• +1 Combat (Barb)/+40% GF, +1 PnB/+32% GF, +1 Javelin (plain), +1 Elemental/ +3 STR
• +18 HP/+9% FR SC, +15 HP/+11% FR SC, +8 max/+53 AR/+12% FHR GC
• +3 GMB, +3 Reflex Bow, +3 Mat Bow (2os) x2
• Eth GPA, Sup +14% Great Bow (4os)
• Firelizard's Talons x2

Set 2:

• 751 flawless gems
• +1 Passive/+12 HP, +1 Passive/+27 HP, 1 Bow/+6 psn dmg, +1 Combat (Paladin)/+35% GF
• +2-48 Lite dmg SC, +7% MF/+14 AR SC, +6% MF/+14 Mana SC, +14 HP/+17 Mana SC, +8 max/+62 AR/+27 HP GC
• Camphor Jewel of Fervor,
• +3 GMB x2, +3 Sup +13% Ceremonial Bow, +3 Sup +3 AR Mat Bow (3os)
• Archon Plate (511 def, 4os), Sup +13% Diamond Bow, Sup +8%/+2 Diamond Bow, Sup +13%/+3 Great Bow, Sup +12%/+1 Great Bow, Sup +11% Shadow Bow (4os)
• AoKL, BK Sacred Charge, Cow King's Hide, Hooves x2, Horns, Doombringer, Eaglehorn, Giant Skull (2os), Leviathan, Rune Master (5os) x2, Ethereal Titan's Revenge, Wizardspike

Conclusion:
Despite screwing things up as much as possible.. you never know what will happen!

Big ups to @PhineasB for hosting this tourney! Now I see why everybody runs Cows/Trav etc. I however, am ready to go back to some nice slow paced questing! XD

 

[PhineasB]

Or, do I just get a bit loony when doing target running?

Yes

Also, @D2DC and I had a PM going where he'd asked a question toward the end of the first set, and he ended up using that thread to track his progress on the second set. It was pretty entertaining to follow along his updates, and the Jah shower that was occurring!

Congrats to all the runners, and thanks for the good write ups of finds. It's always fun to live vicariously through others' sweet drops!

 

[Nano]

Congrats to D2DC!

Ran with Necro for the full 20 hours and found a solid 20 qualifiers. Found a great cow map with the portal next to Cow King- I will probably keep this Necro on this map and make a new Necro if I need one elsewhere.

Individual drop screenshots in this album.

There are improved stats this year courtesy of Oskros' MF Run Counter!

                 Necro
Players             5
Qualifiers         20
Runs              473
Avg Time Per Run 2:32
Cows Per Run      427
Cows Per Min      168

Small Charm       314
Grand Charm       331
Jewels            299
Cows Per Run*     380
Cows Per Min*     150
*Based on drops

The 427 Cows/R and 168 Cows/M are already corrected for the few (2 on average) monsters that get poked by Merc along the way to Wirt. Just as a comparison I included by old method for calculating total kills: Adding up all SCs, GCs, and jewels collected and multiplying by the rarity. Since I had MF Run Counter around this time, I was slightly less diligent with collecting those three item types. In the past I suspected missing about 5% drops but there is a 10% undercount in this case... could be a mixture of not collecting as diligently and also RNG dropping below average.

Stats from my past RFL Cow Rounds using the SC+GC+Jewel drop method:
2018: 374 cows/run, 119 cows/min (Java-P7-20 hour set)
2018: 333 cows/run, 141 cows/min (Nova Sorc-P5-20 hour set)
2019: 382 cows/run, 142 cows/min (Trapper-P5-20 hour set)
2019: 410 cows/run, 160 cows/min (Necro-P5-20 hour set)
2020: 374 cows/run, 157 cows/min (Nova Sorc-P5-20 hour set)

I haven't tested Java or Nova Sorc with the MF Run Counter yet, but it'll be interesting to see if there is a consistent percentage of under-counting with the drop method, maybe in the 5-10% range?

Lastly, a few highlights from non-qualifier drops:

Spoiler

Fine Small Charm of Vita
Small Charm
Required Level: 39
Fingerprint: 0xfce42c7c
Item Level: 84
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Unidentified
+3 to Maximum Damage
+16 to Attack Rating
+19 to Life

Coral Small Charm of Vita
Small Charm
Required Level: 39
Fingerprint: 0x2fbd5c1e
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Unidentified
+19 to Life
Lightning Resist +8%

Garnet Small Charm of Sustenance (Great LLD Charm)
Small Charm
Required Level: 20
Fingerprint: 0x7ac89c5
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Unidentified
+15 to Life
Fire Resist +8%

Iron Small Charm of Good Luck
Small Charm
Required Level: 33
Fingerprint: 0x4aa89c07
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Unidentified
+15 to Attack Rating
7% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items

Steel Small Charm of Good Luck
Small Charm
Required Level: 49
Fingerprint: 0x39439960
Item Level: 81
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Unidentified
+34 to Attack Rating
6% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items

See you in Round 2

 

[Terroriffic]

Had some really bad luck with only 5 qualifiers total, all really low. As for kill speed i dont know if i was just too slow but i gained half a level from around 91.4 - 91.9. There may or may not have been a death in there.

 

[maxicek]

I am curious if anybody else notices any drop "tendencies" along these lines? Or, do I just get a bit loony when doing target running? Perhaps, I am the only one that can see it because of a chemical that was released into my bloodstream when my radium diode implant dissolved?

I'm suspicious of this too, but I'm also suspicious of my mind playing tricks on me. As you can see from my drops, I picked up a lot of Kraken Shells. I also left a lot with lower defence on the ground.

Similar story with Aerin Shields and Heraldic Shields, which I was looking for last year for LLD30.

But am I seeing them because I want to see them? Or am I seeing them because they are actually more frequent?

You know what grinds my gears? Not finding a single Cow Set piece throughout the whole runthrough. I still don't get how you guys managed to get multiple pieces, without killing the King no less.

Closest call was a Sanders Boot.

I found more Cow King pieces this time than I have ever before - Hide and Horns in a single run was pretty crazy - It would have been all three if the boots hadn't been Sander's. Before this round I had only found 1 Hide and Horns without farming the Cow King. I still have only one boots though.

 

[ffs]

Major congrats @D2DC! Some nice drops throughout.

As mentioned in the running thread, I only ran for ~4 hours or so, getting Vex, Mal, Um, Um. Not really worth a haul pic.

Mostly played Nova Sorc for this, which according to the run counter was hovering between 150 and 170 P5 kills per minute. Neither the map nor my playing were particularly good, with little time for map rolling and even less practice on my side, but the numbers are more or less in line with expectations.

Also tracked numbers while trying (unsuccessfully) to get a good Java map, which as expected showed more potential with some high density runs delivering some 170 P7 cows/min. But I never got a map that could sustain such numbers and be properly milked (pun intended), and at one point just went for the easy playstyle with Nova/ES Sorc.

@Nano Interesting finds, because while I didn't use both methods simultaneously, I came to the opposite conclusion. Pretty sure that in my case drop method estimates from previous years rather over-estimated actual kills. I only used the drop method with runes, though, so somewhat less precise. But for me, run counter numbers seemed to be much more in line with the XP methods estimates I've had in the past. Those (run counter & XP method) were around 150-170 P5 kills/min (for good cow builds), whereas with rune counting in recent years I arrived at some 180-200 (and occasionally above 200 with smaller sample sizes). Seems way too high, at least for a long-term average.

You sure you picked up something like 95% of those item types? Based on ~2.5 minute run times I'd have assumed that you only picked them when they dropped close by (that's how I approach it most of the time in any case), in which case the difference makes more sense as well.

---

Looking forward to round 2! Not sure whether I'll manage a full set for it, but even if I don't I'm sure I'll be following closely in any case.