1.11 Skill Balance Changes Discussion

[capnlarge]

id personaly like to see light nova given more damage. i miss nova sorcs. what character cleared cows faster in .09 then a Good nova sorc.

Maybe a lit fury java with a good circlet with tele charges.

 

[IzZ-Lethal]

thats quite possible. javas and nova sorcs were pretty close. the only reason id say novas cleared faster is because of tele. still javas can still clear pretty fast. while novas are now a thing of the past. sucks when the destroy certain character types. even though i dont own a hammadrin. i hope for other peoples sake they dont destroy them too. weakin a bit yes, but destroy no.

 

[Bhruic]

But some people with a bit more intelect like more complex and challenging things than clicking enemies over and over again.

Man, you just can't give up the insults, can you? If you're not interested in having a civilized conversation, why bother? No point discussing with you if that's your only tactic.

Bh

 

[Origin]

Man, you just can't give up the insults, can you? If you're not interested in having a civilized conversation, why bother? No point discussing with you if that's your only tactic.

Bh

yeah cause that's totally one sided

 

[Bhruic]

:shrug:

I never once insulted you or anyone else in this thread. Your arguments? Yes. If I think an argument is stupid, I call it stupid. The difference is, I don't call you stupid.

Bh

 

[Origin]

:shrug:

I never once insulted you or anyone else in this thread. Your arguments? Yes. If I think an argument is stupid, I call it stupid. The difference is, I don't call you stupid.

Bh

There really is no difference. When you call an argument stupid that means the bringer of said argument is stupid.
Though i won in the end so i guess im not stupid after all eh?

 

[owbaer]

You guys need to hug. :thumbsup:

 

[Gorny1]

>Aherm<

http://www.purediablo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=371658

Just a friendly warning to everyone.





Stop the rudeness, trolling, etc.


... OR I will.

 

[owbaer]

Just a friendly warning to everyone.





Stop the rudeness, trolling, etc.


... OR I will.

Ohhhhhhhh a newcomer mod laying down the law.(lmao I so do not mean that to sound out in a rude way) So what's it like being the new mod?

 

[Gorny1]

Ohhhhhhhh a newcomer mod laying down the law.(lmao I so do not mean that to sound out in a rude way) So what's it like being the new mod?

Ive been the mod her for a year.

I am also the mod for the Newcommer Forum.

 

[Bhruic]

Though i won in the end so i guess im not stupid after all eh?

As I said, I never called you stupid. Just your argument. Which is still stupid, btw.

As for "winning", did Blizzard suddenly announce that they were making all skills hell viable? Gee, must have missed that announcement.

Until they do, you really haven't "won" anything, now, have you? Which just illustrates the relative uselessness of arguing about such things on forums, but at least it passes the time. :lol:

Bh

 

[Phats99]

Ummm Ice blast not viable???? How do u think all the lvl 97's and 98's are getting TPPKED in hardcore.... ICE BLAST... it does insane damage... that is just one of the many things wrong with the spells u think need changing... as for telekinesis... it is a MUST spell for all sorcs considering using energy shield... u pretty much have to MAX telekinesis!! without it u r better off not using energy shield..

anyways I'm tired and don't want to go through the others... the patch when it comes... which is now... will answer all the questions people have... so why try and guess what is going to happen?

 

[Joch]

Many skills are flawed in D2 in that they are either overpowered or nowhere near viable in hell. Being the naive little boy I am I'm hoping they might change some of these in 1.11 ^_^

Basically my personal opinion is that you should be able to use ALL skills in hell with sufficient results (yes even things like fire bolt, and to make such early skills not be overpowered early in the game you give them a low base damage and high synnergy with something further down the skill tree so don't whine about that). I don't know if people agree but why wouldn't you? We're all for variation right? I'd love to see more builds out there. I think skills should have different uses and different flavours but not different effectiveness, because then it's not balanced is it?

Anyway I'll go through all the skills I'm familiar with (some skill trees I just don't have enough experience with so I'll leave those). And you guys can pick my stuff apart where I'm wrong, agree with me where I'm right, and fill in on my blank spots. Maybe in a while we'll have a nice list we can post on the bnet forums or some such. I know the chance that they read and/or act on it will be minimal but hey. Hope is nice, plus making lists is fun ^_^

This is all PvM btw. I'm not gonna get into PvP as balancing D2 for PvP and PvM at the same time would be extremely hard and I also personally lack experience in PvP.


SORCERESS

ICE TREE

Ice Bolt
Fully synnergised this spell does almost 700 damage which is a joke compared to the other ice spells. Imo since the ice bolt only chills where the other similar skills freeze and even have splash damage, ice bolt should have the highest damage once fully synnergised (of course it should start out lower than the other skills though). Also the ammount of synnergies needed for this is not only rediculous but also unreachable (120 skill points total, counting the skill itself). A way to make this skill appealing would be to make the projectile faster than ice blast and glacial spike (while also upping the damage of course).

Ice Blast
Fully synnergised the spell does around 1600 damage and also freezes for a good while. While the damage is considerably higher than Glacial Spike it lacks splash damage and splash freeze (if you hit more than 1 enemy with glacial it will do more total damage than Ice Blast). How often do you see a build utilizing this skill? One fix would be to raise the damage a bit (though Ice Bolt should still have the highest damage). Another solution could be to make Glacial Spike a timered spell and in return increase its splash radius or duration. Work with me here and maybe we can find a solution. I believe Glacial Spike will always be used to an extent because the splash freeze is very very handy.

Glacial Spike
Fully synnergised the spell does 1026 _splash_ damage and _splash_ freeze. I don't think this skill needs a nerf. It certainly does not need a boost.

Frost Nova
This spell does around 300 damage fully synnergised. While a nova spell can hit very many enemies I personally think this is offset by the danger of being so close to the enemy. The mana cost is also quite insane, thus lowering your survivability if you want to use it regularly (as you will spend more items on mana that could have been used for HP or other defensive stats) So I'd say damage needs to be upped on this one. You could argue it has an insane chill duration but really what is chill compared to freeze? And who would put 20 points in this skill only to be able to chill well?

Blizzard
About 2700 damage per hit fully synnergised and how often does it hit? 2-3 times per cast? That's quite insane and I know from personal experience that PvM is far too easy to play with this skill. Time to bring out the nerf stick? I must admit though that I haven't used this spell in Hell so I might very well be wrong.

Frozen Orb
Very hard to calculate the damage of this spell but with a meager investment of 40 points this spell is hell viable. Again I lack the experience to know how viable. Help me out people.

Frozen Armor
While this spell is certainly useful to put points in I believe most people have better things to invest in. Most people use it as a one point wonder which is fine but I think all spells should be viable to take to level 20. To pull this off I say lower the ammount of synnergies in the cold tree (and up their efficiency instead). That way people will have points to spare on frozen armor if they wish.
Edit: Also I think the synnergies should be far more effective. If you're sinking 60 points into an armor I think it should be pretty damn good.

Shiver Armor
Chosing Shiver instead of Frozen armor you give away your life saving freeze to chill and you run the risk of setting off lightning/fire/cold enchanted monsters with the damage you give them. What you get in return is such a rediculous ammount of damage that it clearly isn't worth it. I'd up the damage significantly and maybe synnergise the damage with a risky spell like Frost Nova.

Chilling Armor
Same problem as Shiver armor. Same solution.



LIGHTNING TREE
Sorry to say I lack experience with many of the lightning skills but I'll do the ones I know.

Nova
A great fun skill to use. However the damage is pathetic and it has no synnergies. It is also highly risky to use because you need to be close to the enemy and with the hefty mana cost you need to sacrifice alot of defensive powers to maintain nova spamming. I propose raising the damage and giving it a few synnergies.

Telekinesis
I know this is mostly a utility skill but the utility aspect of it has been nerfed hard due to exploits. Also what's level 2+ doing there if nobody is ever going to use them? I say make telekinesis worth investing points in. Make it an actual attack skill with real damage and synnergies. Wouldn't it be nice to see people actually using this skill? Diversity is your friend ^_^
The skill could have decent damage and a nice knockback but short range.

Chain Lightning
It's probably fine the way it is (not sure though, haven't used it alot) but how's this for flavour? Make it a timered spell with a long cooldown (8 seconds maybe?) and have it bounce many more times more like the javazon version. So you'd set one off and it'd dance around with the enemies for a good while until you set the next one and meanwhile you can use other skills to spam (nova, lightning, telekinesis, charged bolt, considering those were all made useful of course). Again that is strictly a thing of flavour but hey. Lightning doesn't have any timered skills so introducing one could give more diversity in skill usage (as you typically want to use one timered and one non-timered spell at the same time).


FIRE TREE

Fire Bolt
The damage is puny when it should be higher than that of fireballs due to its lack of splash damage.

Fire Ball
Does some more damage than Glacial Spike but doesn't freeze. Perfect in my opinion. With fire mastery the damage is huge but let's not forget it's negated by fire resistance on enemies as opposed to Glacial Spike with cold mastery.

Inferno
Fix the bug so it does its real damage. And even then I believe the damage needs an upgrade.

Blaze
Up the damage enough so that it's worthwhile to max this out. Maybe a synnergy with Firewall also?

Firewall
Haven't used it much at all. Would love some input here from people!

Enchant
Seems to do its job very well no? I think a synnergy from Hydra would be cool though since you could then summon hydras to spam firebolts while you whack away at the enemy. Just a thing of flavour though. Really why is it synnergised to warmth? It's not like an enchantress needs alot of mana.

Meteor
Someone mentioned turning the impact damage into physical somewhere in this forum and I am inclined to agree. Fire sorceresses probably struggle the most with resistances and immunities in this game. Physical meteor would give them a good but far from great way to dispose of fire immunes. Maybe even 50% physical 50% fire for the impact damage? Also why not synnergise it with Blaze instead of Inferno? Seems a good combo (if Blaze did damage that is).

Hydra
A thing of flavour I guess but wouldn't it be nice if Hydras were indeed a support and not a main damage spell? I think this could be accomplished if you increased their duration alot but put a max number on them much like assasin traps. Then you could actually see people using 3 skills in the same battle! (lay down hydras, then launch meteors/firewalls, and spam untimered spells during the whole time).



Wow that's alot.. I'm gonna take a break and see if there is any interest whatsoever in this before I continue.

only read a piece of this dudes post & can say it just should more or less stay like it is now.
the dmg you mension is when your character is naked?
cause idunno but my cold sorcs ice blast does 6.3k & she aint perfect, not even anni.
& she can kick hells ass with the merc coming along.
the game shouldnt be as easy as it was in 1.09 thou it were fun times cowing.

 

[Origin]

Ummm Ice blast not viable???? How do u think all the lvl 97's and 98's are getting TPPKED in hardcore.... ICE BLAST... it does insane damage... that is just one of the many things wrong with the spells u think need changing... as for telekinesis... it is a MUST spell for all sorcs considering using energy shield... u pretty much have to MAX telekinesis!! without it u r better off not using energy shield..

anyways I'm tired and don't want to go through the others... the patch when it comes... which is now... will answer all the questions people have... so why try and guess what is going to happen?

yeah synnergies are so exciting... i think you missed the point there.
also, like i said i wanted people to help me out. of course i don't know everything by myself. nobody does. also I was talking about PvM not PvP.

 

[Origin]

As I said, I never called you stupid. Just your argument. Which is still stupid, btw.

As for "winning", did Blizzard suddenly announce that they were making all skills hell viable? Gee, must have missed that announcement.

Until they do, you really haven't "won" anything, now, have you? Which just illustrates the relative uselessness of arguing about such things on forums, but at least it passes the time. :lol:

Bh

until you take it up again i'll consider myself the winner of our little discussion ^_^

 

[Arbedark]

Virtually all skills are "hell viable".

You want to be able to use skills in the way you described earlier? Do it.

You wont be as fast as someone spamming fireball. But you will be far from ineffective.

All i can see the OP wanting is to make it so that all skills do insane damage and is almost impossible to lose.

Couple more points. Increase Ice Bolt so its viable? But then why have Ice Blast? Which is meant to be a more powerful version? :think:

With careful planning and gameplay all builds are virtually viable in hell. For gods sake people have taken barbs through hell using just warcries and the Fire skills from Trangs Set.

Do you want to take all skill based play out of this game?




Arb

 

[capnlarge]

Ummm Ice blast not viable???? How do u think all the lvl 97's and 98's are getting TPPKED in hardcore.... ICE BLAST... it does insane damage... that is just one of the many things wrong with the spells u think need changing... as for telekinesis... it is a MUST spell for all sorcs considering using energy shield... u pretty much have to MAX telekinesis!! without it u r better off not using energy shield..

anyways I'm tired and don't want to go through the others... the patch when it comes... which is now... will answer all the questions people have... so why try and guess what is going to happen?

I beg to differ. In PVM anyway, 1 pt in energy shield and plus to skills is perfectly viable.

As for telekinesis? I wasn't saying that putting points in it was useless. I just thought it was fun to kill enemies with TK in normal. But now that I think of it an uber-damaging TK would be super-cheap in PVP.

 

[Origin]

Virtually all skills are "hell viable".

You want to be able to use skills in the way you described earlier? Do it.

You wont be as fast as someone spamming fireball. But you will be far from ineffective.

All i can see the OP wanting is to make it so that all skills do insane damage and is almost impossible to lose.

Couple more points. Increase Ice Bolt so its viable? But then why have Ice Blast? Which is meant to be a more powerful version? :think:

With careful planning and gameplay all builds are virtually viable in hell. For gods sake people have taken barbs through hell using just warcries and the Fire skills from Trangs Set.

Do you want to take all skill based play out of this game?




Arb

heh no. many many skills can not put a dent in monsters in hell unless you have uber godly equipment

im trying to put skill and variation into the game not take it out

edit:
oh and "Couple more points. Increase Ice Bolt so its viable? But then why have Ice Blast? Which is meant to be a more powerful version? :think:"

the idea would be that ice bolt had more damage but doesnt freeze. yay an interesting choice for the player. heck a good player could even use them both.


edit 2:

To everyone who says the lower level skills are "supposed to" only be used in the begining then thrown away. Could you tell me why exactly those skills have synnergies?
Oh no your argument fell flat ;_;

 

[Arbedark]

heh no. many many skills can not put a dent in monsters in hell unless you have uber godly equipment

im trying to put skill and variation into the game not take it out

edit:
oh and "Couple more points. Increase Ice Bolt so its viable? But then why have Ice Blast? Which is meant to be a more powerful version? :think:"

the idea would be that ice bolt had more damage but doesnt freeze. yay an interesting choice for the player. heck a good player could even use them both.

I think you should go back and actually test some more skills before making this claim.

Sure. You wont be able to kill at super speed. But they CAN kill. In fact, at the start of last ladder season I used a FireWall and Orb sorc. She could complete hell naked. And people complain that firewall is one of the most underpowered skills.

To a skilled player. Virtually all skills are viable in Hell as I have said before. It just takes patience and skill.

You failed to reply to the fact that people have taken chars through hell using a level 18 Fire Ball without any synergies...

As far as I can see you are just complaining that not all builds can kill as quick as a "cookie cutter" build.




Arb

 

[Origin]

I think you should go back and actually test some more skills before making this claim.

Sure. You wont be able to kill at super speed. But they CAN kill. In fact, at the start of last ladder season I used a FireWall and Orb sorc. She could complete hell naked. And people complain that firewall is one of the most underpowered skills.

To a skilled player. Virtually all skills are viable in Hell as I have said before. It just takes patience and skill.

You failed to reply to the fact that people have taken chars through hell using a level 18 Fire Ball without any synergies...

As far as I can see you are just complaining that not all builds can kill as quick as a "cookie cutter" build.




Arb

I think you are the one who needs to test things then. I have tried plenty of skills that can barely damage past the monsters regen.

And like I said maybe some skills can be viable IF you have uber godly equipment but that is not balance. Why should a good portion of the game be locked away for botters and runners only?

edit:
also i find that level 18 firebolt claim very amusing. i did some math on it and it would take around 193-386 (depending on how much hp the mauler spawned with) hits with firebolt to kill a death mauler in a5 hell and this is considering every firebolt doing the max damage of 50

somehow i think the monsters regen would negate most or all of that. and even if it DID work I would not call that viable. it has then become a game of patience rather than a game of skill and strategy.