Etdlahq Memorial Bar - your shelter from forum crashes

Wonderful, theological and sociological discussions in the bar. That's more like it.

I think the main problem with theism is monotheism. Monotheism means that there is only one god. Okay, but human arrogance works on that by saying "you and I believe in different gods, there is only one god and it is MY god, therefore you worship a false god". It goes down hill pretty quickly after that. Now if polytheism were the popular type of theism things would be different. "You and I believe in different gods, MY god is better than yours but if I do something to you, your god might come down and kick my arse."

I've got an opened mind about god but I believe religions have got it around the wrong way. God didn't create us, we created god, but not in a fictitious sort of way. It is a common theme in Sci-fi, but what we call God I believe to be a gestalt entity of made up of the consciousness of all living things. It's not good or evil, it just is.
 
Isn't that the purpose of the scientific method though? Going back many years ago, there was no evidence that an anti-cancer drug could exist. We have and are developing drugs now to help cancer patients, because someone, despite no evidence for it, still believed it was possible. They aren't 100% cures, but the potential is there, and came out of something trying something that didn't exist.

Another example. Humans haven't discovered every life form on earth. There are animals in the depths of the ocean we haven't identified yet. There is no proof of their existence (It's only a small step of faith to believe that we haven't discovered everything.) So you don't believe they exist, or that there are new species yet to be discovered?
My thought process is that ~70% of the earth is ocean. and I believe less than 5% of that has been searched; The average ocean depth is ~4200 meters, while the deepest part is ~11,000 meters deep. There's no evidence that says there are things living there, but given our current knowledge (and knowledge gaps,) or rainforest ecosystems and dynamics, or caves, of the solar system, of previous discoveries and scientific breakthroughs - things that may not have been believed previously - it would be likely that there'd be more to discover.



Uh... Error in typing. I believe that there could be a god or higher purpose, but I acknowledge that there may not be. But the belief/faith is that there is something higher.

----

I also somewhat classify atheism as a religion, because (while most start as jokes/satire,) there are the odd ones who join an atheist club or page to try to share their belief that no god exists, and who want to convert others away from other religious belief. They do what religious groups do - try convincing others that they are right, which is why there are so many difficulties discussing religion. It's not really an accurate definition, but it somewhat fits. My bad there.
I think it's easy to misinterpret what you quoted, based on your response. First of, you sort of answered the reason for believing there are undiscovered species remaining to be discovered yourself: past experience and evidence suggests that there should be. It doesn't technically assert it as 100% true but it's highly suggestive there is.
The same with looking for cancer treatments. We know that many/most diseases and maladies can be cured or the symptoms alleviated by understanding and researching our body chemistry. Cancer is something that happens within our body so it makes sense to suspect that some headway can be made by investigating chemicals and chemical systems that are related. Again, like you said you're not starting with absolute knowledge of something but evidence and history of OTHER things in life leads us to believe it's somethign worth pursuing. I think my original post was either not clear enough or you misinterpreted my meaning.

Now, if someone says they discovered a cure for cancer but no natural (that is, understandable and explainable through our current scientific knowledge) then i'm not inclined to believe them because they provide no evidence to support their proposal. Ofc if they had double blind clinical trials that support their seemingly magical drug or method that is REPEATABLE by non-biased sources then I will have to believe them whether we understand the mechanism or not.

Regarding atheism vs religion.
I still assert atheism can not be classified as a religion because even though you have zealous people who want to change the opinion of others (like the religious should and do) it does not change their belief system into a faith-based system by any means. Atheism remains an evidence-based system.

From wikipedia:
Code:
[FONT=sans-serif]Arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to social and historical approaches. Rationales for not believing in any [/FONT][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural"]supernatural[/URL][FONT=sans-serif] deity include the lack of[/FONT][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God#Empirical_arguments"]empirical evidence[/URL][FONT=sans-serif],[/FONT][SUP][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#cite_note-logical-12"][12][/URL][/SUP][SUP][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#cite_note-13"][13][/URL][/SUP][FONT=sans-serif] the [/FONT][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil"]problem of evil[/URL][FONT=sans-serif], the [/FONT][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_inconsistent_revelations"]argument from inconsistent revelations[/URL][FONT=sans-serif], rejection of concepts which cannot be [/FONT][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability"]falsified[/URL][FONT=sans-serif], and the [/FONT][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_nonbelief"]argument from nonbelief[/URL][FONT=sans-serif].[/FONT][SUP][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#cite_note-logical-12"][12][/URL][/SUP][SUP][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#cite_note-Drange-1996-14"][14][/URL][/SUP][FONT=sans-serif] Although some atheists have adopted [/FONT][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism"]secular[/URL][FONT=sans-serif] philosophies,[/FONT][SUP][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#cite_note-honderich-15"][15][/URL][/SUP][SUP][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#cite_note-16"][16][/URL][/SUP][FONT=sans-serif] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.[/FONT][SUP][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#cite_note-17"][17][/URL][/SUP][FONT=sans-serif] M[B]any atheists hold that atheism is a more [/B][/FONT][B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsimonious"]parsimonious[/URL][FONT=sans-serif] worldview than theism, and therefore the [/FONT][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof"]burden of proof[/URL][FONT=sans-serif] lies not on the atheist to disprove the existence of God, but on the theist to provide a rationale for theism.[/FONT][/B]
ie evidence-based school of thought and thus not FAITH-based. This is the same as saying you don't believe psychics are real because no claimed psychic as provided sufficient proof of their abilities and thus the burden of proof lies on their end. Anyway, here's a much better description that I think describes what both of us are thinking and distinguishes them when we label something as religious. Also yes I read the article I linked to

I have no need for a club like that (though there is one at my school) because I can watch what I want at my leisure on youtube or read it elsewhere. On the other hand, if I was a good enough writer, orator or scholar I'm sure I would take up the fight publicly and vocally like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens
 
*hands Nix a towel for getting him wet*

Sorry, that trap wasn't meant for you.

*resets water trap*

@pharphis - Yeah, that makes your thoughts on the "Absence of evidence" part clearer.
 
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I guess... Having a couple of mid-late teens when you're 21 may be a bit... different.

Either way:

*whips out party cannon*

*checks that fridge is fully stocked*

Happy B'day! Who has the cakes?
 
My daughters are 24 & 25. My younger daughter has made me a white chocolate mudcake, MrsNix and I are going over to their house in an hour or so. MrsNix has made me some Apples Cakes too, guess I'll need to go on a diet next week. There must be some e-cake in the bar somewhere!
 
*cries*

Weekend! Agh... My boss (since I currently have nothing better to do at work,) wants me to become an internal auditor with no training, but still do an internal audit (and make all the ammendments and documents that need updating - documentation is okay, but auditing our company is not,) which is incredibly boring, bland, unins helling, has horrible documents, and is tiring as hell. And I don't know what the **** I'm doing, because auditing is potentially a full-time career, and not a short process...

Catching up on this thread now.
:D
I have a BA in Finance and accounting and would not do it, but if your not qualified and say so you might end up doing inventory for the guy that is.

:D

Also Catching up - was PG BTW :D
 
OK - on the Bully thing a school is all about social rules and conformity on some levels.
I see the order to leave it home or dress codes as fine.

Sorry - GT but I don't approve of **** via any bull**** excuse like dress or assault and schools have to prevent it in the schools. :D
Next...
I don't think following an evidence-based belief system has to do directly with realism. I'm not sure exactly what realism is, though.
I don't believe in psychics for the same reason I don't believe in the tooth fairy, flying reindeer, leprechauns, unicorns or santa claus. There is no evidence for their existence.

atheism alert:
I feel the same way towards theism. Anecdotal, self-contradictory ancient texts are not evidence of anything more than wishful thinking of past generations.

Reality - what a concept!

I only believe in my poltergeist and I'm the only one that does. I tell the wife he keeps putting the seat up.
I don't buy psychics but they are fun on occasion when you catch them with the right card trick.
:D - entertainers need to make a living and one born every minute.

That's kind of how I view organized religion as well.

I believe in "God" but I limit the definition of "God" to the force that created this universe as that's all I or anyone else alive IMHO knows.
I'm optimistic and think this is the best universe God could make because after all it has me in it.

:D
I believe in The Pursuit of my own Happiness by me and in your right to pursue yours in accordance with "The Golden Rule" treat others as your would want them to treat you.

I'm a Deist.

See my profiles About me section
Interests Bob · Libertarian · Skeptic · Omnivore . Objectivist· Deist · Iconoclast· Southern Californian ·
 
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Shameless advertising time!

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I'll link to sign ups in a bit. The game is being run by Drixx and CDM!

Edit: Game Sign-Up Link!
 
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:D
I have a BA in Finance and accounting and would not do it, but if your not qualified and say so you might end up doing inventory for the guy that is.

:D

There is no one in the company qualified for it. And there is no one else who will do it. It's because everyone else is currently interstate, and we have no work going at the moment.
 
OK - on the Bully thing a school is all about social rules and conformity on some levels.
I see the order to leave it home or dress codes as fine.

Sorry - GT but I don't approve of **** via any bull**** excuse like dress or assault and schools have to prevent it in the schools. :D
Next...


Reality - what a concept!

I only believe in my poltergeist and I'm the only one that does. I tell the wife he keeps putting the seat up.
I don't buy psychics but they are fun on occasion when you catch them with the right card trick.
:D - entertainers need to make a living and one born every minute.

That's kind of how I view organized religion as well.

I believe in "God" but I limit the definition of "God" to the force that created this universe as that's all I or anyone else alive IMHO knows.
I'm optimistic and think this is the best universe God could make because after all it has me in it.

:D
I believe in The Pursuit of my own Happiness by me and in your right to pursue yours in accordance with "The Golden Rule" treat others as your would want them to treat you.

I'm a Deist.

See my profiles About me section
Interests Bob · Libertarian · Skeptic · Omnivore . Objectivist· Deist · Iconoclast· Southern Californian ·
Entertainment is great. Psychics claiming to be the real deal are not entertainers but people who are either liars or delusional. This kind of falls in line with when Uri Geller was huge and claimed to be able to bend spoons with his mind, or read people's minds using extremely simple deceptive techniques. The thing is, he never claimed he was just an entertainer until well after James Randi wrote a book about him
 
Eh, I will comment. Books are great. GoT and other books. I do agree that you can get lost in the characters and details though. It starts off introducing so many characters and plots.
I want to read the 4th book while watching the 4th season (GoT comes out next month I believe), but I can basically guarentee I'll fall behind in the books. Plus, they aren't quite as linear as they were initially and have a number of differences.

*cuddles stripteasing Nix*
It didn't really motivate me, but I appreciate the effort.

4th season of GoT is the second half of book 3 not book 4.

If you're going to watch Manos Hands of Fate, at least do it with the Mystery Science Theater 3000 guys riffing on it. They do a great one and it's hilarious. If you don't know them, you are in for a treat! They make funny comments on the movie. Netflix has that one. So now I have you all sorted out, on to the next problem!

Snow again today but it is supposed to be 54 F (yes, F, get over it) on Saturday. Woohoo!

No I will not get over it .....

Another bad movie: Attack of the killer tomatoes and the sequels.

Awesome movie :). We watched it in media studies at school.

*cries*

Weekend! Agh... My boss (since I currently have nothing better to do at work,) wants me to become an internal auditor with no training, but still do an internal audit (and make all the ammendments and documents that need updating - documentation is okay, but auditing our company is not,) which is incredibly boring, bland, unins helling, has horrible documents, and is tiring as hell. And I don't know what the **** I'm doing, because auditing is potentially a full-time career, and not a short process...

Catching up on this thread now.

Auditing is fun, you get to go around picking holes in what people do and make recommendation and corrective actions. The best bit is all the hard work is for someone else to do :)

gnosticism and theism do not answer the same questions. One can be any combination of gnostic or agnostic with theist or atheist.

I'm an agnostic atheist, for example. I don't believe there is a god and I don't believe it can be proven/disproven (like tooth fairies)

But the definition has been used differently by fence-sitters in recent years who don't want to upset others. I'll freely admit I thought agnosticism was the "open-mindedness" some claim it to be instead of the evidence-based question since I too was told it meant otherwise several years ago and never checked.

I've been listening to a lot of debates on whether theism is good/bad and similar topics recently and I'm surprised even by the number of scholars who don't know the distinction, and describe agnosticism as a "type" of atheism, or as a more "open-minded" viewpoint than atheism.
They aren't comparable

I remember having this discussion many times on hamachi. (the difference between agnostic / gnostic and atheist / theist).

This is a very interesting disussion and I want to throw my 2 cents in.

I believe that every god and godess is manmade. We create our gods after our needs and some of them care to shared needs by many and as such becomean established religion. When I feel the need for it I can dream up my own god or godess for a night where it's hard to fall asleep and feel some faith and love. That's how the human minds works in my opinion. We search for reassurement all the time and when human reassurement is not available or enough then we find it in our gods. They are a projection of all we want to be.

I don't know in what category of theism or not that puts me, but I live comfortably with it. :)

*cuddles please*

Edit: On the short skirt issue. I am firmly of the belief that everybody should be able to walk around being naked without anything bad happening. That's not how it is in reality, so lock the pervs that don't respect others up. Or shoot them. Or something.

You are more then welcome to walk around nekid in here Moar, I might even seduce you with my accent *winks*

Argh! Why did I just get a bucket of water dumped on me? I just got this white dress dry!!

*stomps off muttering dire threats

you could always take it off *winks*
 
4th season of GoT is the second half of book 3 not book 4.
No. But yes. It's the 4th physical book in my collection. I don't know why he made two books that are 'Book 3 part 1' and 'Book 3 part 2,' but either way, I've now picked up the 4th physical book, which is titled Book 3 part 2.

Auditing is fun, you get to go around picking holes in what people do and make recommendation and corrective actions. The best bit is all the hard work is for someone else to do :)
Actually, it's me doing everything. From square one, which includes writing half the documents, and updating other ones which requires me to read the AS/NZS ISO 9001:2008... And that **** is boring as. There's no one at all who is supposedly doing the audit except me.
And cakes, we spoke previously about money/wages - doing this is on the same wage/hourly rate I'm on normally...
 
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