Bear Sorc Help!

[Psychonautical]

You may have seen my bow sorc question earlier...

Yeah, screw that. I am interested in the bear sorc instead.

So, my main question is what exactly is the best for fast swing speed?

I am hearing conflicting accounts of what is needed. The Gris Caddy seems to be the most popular choice. What is the exact IAS needed for various weapons such as a PB and Zerker?

Also, how does Fanaticism factor into bearform swing speed? If only weapon IAS matters, could one theoretically just put Beast in a War Spike (-10 wias) and get adequate speed from the 40% + 29% Fana gives? Then the extra weapon swap for CtA would be uneccessary.

Also, what of a Breath of the Dying Phase Blade? I feel that one frame shorter would be worth the sacrifice to get the massive amount of bonuses from BotD. (-target defense, attributes, attack rating, and a smidge of dual leech on top of decent physical damage which is all one should need with energy shield.)

If it helps, here is what I am looking at for my build:

20 Warmth
20 Enchant
20 Fire Mastery
20 Telekinesis
20 Lightning Mastery
1 Frozen Armor
Anything left over pumps Energy Shield

Dream Bone Visage
Metalgrid/Angelic Wings
Gladiator's Bane* Um/Chains of Honor Archon Plate
Dream Hyperion
Thundergod's Vigor
Rare Gloves/Bloodfist/Magefist
Waterwalk/Aldur's Advance
a) SoJ + Raven Frost if no GBane or Angelics/b) SoJ + SoJ if GBane and no Angelics/c) Dual Angelic's or One + SoJ depending on AR needs
Breath of the Dying Phase Blade if it hits 5 frames/Beast War Spike MAYBE if it hits 6 or 5 frames/Griswold's Caddy

*As an aside, I noticed that many people overlook Gladiator's Bane, but this thing was MADE for an ES-using sorc. It has CBF which is always nice, huge defense, up to 20 physical and magical damage reduction AND a nice 50% poison length reduction. Poison has always been a big issue versus ES. If you find one with 20 DR and MDR, KEEP IT!

Thoughts?

 

[Clervis1]

Drop Bear

There's really only two options that hit 5 frames per attack. Many can hit 6 frames, but that stinks compared to 5. You need either 115 IAS on a -10 WSM weapon, which is only possible on a 6 socket War Spike, and the Caddy. Griz Caddy (3xShael/15ias jewel) gives you physical damage--great for leeching and dual immunes--and then there is a 6 socket Phaseblade, which needs 95 IAS. With the PB, you can do 5 Shael, and one other rune/jewel (Ber for CB, Jah for ITD, Ohm for ED, etc.), or you can use 5 really expensive Mod/IAS jewels and 1 Shael (5x15ResAll/15IAS=75ResAll) or (5x40/15ias=less damage than Caddy).

Of these options, I was torn between the resists PB and physical damage Caddy. In the end, I could get my resists from elsewhere, and the physical damage let me leech to keep my red bubble filled.

IAS from anything but the weapon is useless (generally). So IAS gloves and Fanaticism are pointless. BotD PB even is insufficient to reach 5 frames (it gets 7 frames, 6 frames w/ 5 more IAS). I really can't stress enough how much of a tactical advantage you get from 5 frames. Since all your damage is coming from Dreams and Enchant, the faster you swing, the faster you kill, plus it gives you a lot more freedom of movement.

Stuff like ITD and Attack Rating, are really not so important if you're using an Infinity Merc; plus your Enchant gives you a decent AR. So I'd probably drop the Angelic/Metalgrid idea.

Gladiator's Bane is a great option if you go for an ES build. I've tried ES builds and non-ES, but I prefer relying on leech, max block, and high vita over ES. The reason for this is that, I found if things get really hot, your Blue bubble isn't reliable, leaving you vulnerable. It's usually in cases of high elemental damage though, particularly from ranged attackers; or in cases of extreme physical attackers like Frenzytaurs. The problem is you can't teleport while in bear form, so if you get swarmed you have to fight your way out. A leech bear usually can deal with those situations so long as he keeps swinging. An ES build needs to chug pots, and if you get to the point where your ES fails, you won't have to time to switch out of Bear mode to rebuff ES. But in the case of an ES build, GBane was my preferred option.

 

[Psychonautical]

One thing I noticed is that people seem to be polar on the ES subject. I don't agree that to utilize ES necessarily requires one to max out energy in any way. I was actually going to go mostly vita while shooting for about 40% block with a Hyperion. I wouldn't spend a single point in energy.

Between mana items and charms, I wasn't going to rely on ES so much as just... why not? You know? I won't use mana at all, and Warmth would be maxed anyways. Why not put in that extra bit of protection. If I get swarmed or encounter mana burn, its not like I won't be able to keep fighting. Plus between the regen and maybe a bit of mana leech on top of a Gris caddy, I feel like I would really be able to avoid a good bit of damage anyways.

After posting I reread your reply and I figure when you say "isn't reliable" you mean that without the mana your boned. But then again, a max dex sorc goes for max block and the rest to life. Why not do that AND use energy shield? Even with less mana, its still a means of reducing damage. Like a semi-absorbing bone armor that replenishes automatically.

I guess what I am getting at is, is there REALLY any point at which ES is USELESS on a build that doesn't NEED any mana to function?

 

[Necronium]

Basically you have to go all out into it for ES to be effective. That means maxed Telekinesis, and a super high level ES. slvl 40 for the 95% cap. Since you are a bear it would be way more beneficial to go all out Vita, since bear from will increase it by that much more.


It will help slightly, but since it wont be absorbing the majority of damage taken, and since you dont have a lot of energy the pool will very quickly dissipate as will your life.

 

[Clervis1]

After posting I reread your reply and I figure when you said"isn't reliable" you mean that without the mana your boned. But then again, a max dex sorc goes for max block and the rest to life. Why not do that AND use energy shield? Even with less mana, its still a means of reducing damage. Like a semi-absorbing bone armor that replenishes automatically.

I guess what I am getting at is, is there REALLY any point at which ES is USELESS on a build that doesn't NEED any mana to function?

I don't think I'm polarized on the topic. Both ES and non-ES builds are quite formidable. When I originally started playing around and testing the bear spec, I tried all sorts of options. In fact, originally I was going to write a guide for both options. But after playing both more and more I found the non-ES to be noticeably more rugged. But that could just be due to my playing style. I love haphazardly charging into a swarm ofonster and whacking my way out. The ES option requires a little more finesse.

In response to Necronium's claim that it's all or nothing, I disagree, now that I think of it. I tried this, but found it much too restrictive. The problem really just came down to mana burn. A fully ES melee build pretty much just has to skip mana burn packs, and I wasn't comfortable with that.

What I came up with was somewhat a compromise, but much more effective. It focused on using ES and Warmth to keep a healthy absorption, but let GBane and String of Ears cut out the maximum amount of PDR and MDR. To this end, ES was kept at a pre-buffable level (memory staff plus +skill gear: slvl 18 at 73%). So, I let some damage come through to my red bubble and relied on leech to keep it up (SoE's second benefit).

I remember this being a pretty cool set up. I had 27 PDR and 35 MDR, so not a significant level of damage got through, and even if I met mana burners I could still function with a little help from lifetap from dracs. A CtA made things a lot easier, but pre-buffing was a little too much for my impatient ***. Here was my setup:
Draculs grasp
String of Ears-15 MDR
GBane (Sol)-27PDR/20MDR
2x SOJ
Prebuff Switch: CtA then Memory Staff
Skills: 20 Telekenesis, 0 ES
Stats: Max block, Str for gear, rest split between vit/mag (I think)

 

[Psychonautical]

In response to Necronium's claim that it's all or nothing, I disagree, now that I think of it. I tried this, but found it much too restrictive. The problem really just came down to mana burn. A fully ES melee build pretty much just has to skip mana burn packs, and I wasn't comfortable with that.

But that is what I'm saying. WHY did you have to avoid mana burn? The only difference in your setup and the one I am suggesting is that I have slightly lower defense. I am not talking about relying on ES. My dexterity and vitality would be virtually identical to yours.

All I am suggesting is maxing Telekinesis and using one point and +skill gear to give a SMIDGE of damage absorbtion since not only will my mana be regenerating quickly, but I have no use for it whatsoever in the first place. Why NOT use ES?

If the only difference is that the defense is that drastic (keep in mind, I'd still use max or close to max block and a Defiance mercenary AND an armor, just not a maxed one) and it causes me to really be hit THAT much more, then I can maybe see where you are coming from. But between the merc, +skills, max block and high vitality, I can't see any reason to not use ES since my mana is otherwise virtually unused.

Another thing I considered: Say you have the Mara's, 2x BKs, Spirit on swap and Torch/Anni. That is 10 to all Sorc skills when you cast Enchant. Since the majority of the damage comes from lightning, have you ever considered just using a Demon Limb? You only sacrifice 7 levels on Enchant at the benefit of freeing up 20 more skill points. This could be used to max BOTH an armor skill AND pump Energy Shield for a supposedly-nearly-indestructible build that should only sacrifice a couple thousand fire damage at the MOST and a bit of attack rating.

And yes, I understand that this add another prebuff step, but boo hoo. Keep a cube in your inventory and stash the Demon Limb and CtA/Beast while holding the other, respectively.

Thoughts?

 

[Clervis1]

Well, I'd suggest you try testing it for yourself on single player anfaybe use some item packs online. I tried all this and wound up with conclusions different from what I originally thought (which were actually quite similar to what you're saying).

If I remember correctly, the problem with ES was that if you didnt invest enough into it, it would just peeter out in even light combat. When you hit zero mana, ES deactivates. Then you'd have to un-bear to cast it again, making it too inconvenient. Having a low mana pool doesn't just effect the maximum amount of mana, but the regen rate itself is based off of max mana. So it's not of any considerable help unless you invest 20+ skills, a decent amount of stats, and some specific gear choices.

As far as Enchant goes, it's absolutely what makes the build so great. Lightning delivers a terrible punch, but the fire adds a separate prong of attack and without it you're a one trick pony. Demonlimb doesn't provide the synergy from Warmth.

 

[onderduiker]

So, my main question is what exactly is the best for fast swing speed?

I am hearing conflicting accounts of what is needed. The Gris Caddy seems to be the most popular choice. What is the exact IAS needed for various weapons such as a PB and Zerker?

Also, how does Fanaticism factor into bearform swing speed? If only weapon IAS matters, could one theoretically just put Beast in a War Spike (-10 wias) and get adequate speed from the 40% + 29% Fana gives? Then the extra weapon swap for CtA would be uneccessary.

Also, what of a Breath of the Dying Phase Blade?

The more general issues have already been addressed, and you can use the attack speed calculator for more specific ones.

But that is what I'm saying. WHY did you have to avoid mana burn?

Because ~1/4 Unique monsters in Hell have Mana Burn, adding mana damage to the attacks of both the Unique and its 3-6 minions, due to a bug this is 256 times higher when applied by melee attacks, and you're playing a melee Sorceress.

In Hell the minimum MB damage would be applied by a level 70 MB Unique and its minions, which should be 52-80 for the Unique and 26-40 for its minions before the Resist -100% penalty in Hell (which applies to mana and stamina damage as well). However, due to the bug this increases to 13,312-20,480 and 6,656-10,240 respectively when applied by melee attacks.

Without Energy Shield, after the Resist -100% penalty in Hell total mana loss is doubled to 26,624-40,960 from a Unique melee hit and 13,312-20,480 from any minion melee hit.

At absolute best, level > 39 ES diverts 95% of mana damage to mana (~12,646-19,456 and ~6,323-9,728), which 20 points in Telekinesis reduces to 75% (~9,484-14,592 and ~4,742-7,296). The remaining 5% mana damage (~665-1,024 and ~332-512) is now doubled by the Resist -100% penalty in Hell (~1,331-2,048 and ~665-1,024), resulting in total mana loss of 10,816-16,640 from a Unique melee hit and 5,408-8,320 from a minion melee hit.

In short, a single melee hit from any MB Unique or minion will reduce you to zero mana, removing ES. Since you're a Werebear, you cannot cast it again without shifting back to human form, which is inadvisable mid-combat.

As far as Enchant goes, it's absolutely what makes the build so great. Lightning delivers a terrible punch, but the fire adds a separate prong of attack and without it you're a one trick pony. Demonlimb doesn't provide the synergy from Warmth.

Demonlimb's level 23 Enchant charges receive the synergy bonus from Warmth, and last for over 11 minutes (672 seconds to be exact), so the main consideration is how high your own Enchant level would be (bearing in mind that at level 34 fire damage is slightly more than double that at level 23, and at level 44 it's slightly more than triple).

 

[Namtar]

Because ~1/4 Unique monsters in Hell have Mana Burn, adding mana damage to the attacks of both the Unique and its 3-6 minions, due to a bug this is 256 times higher when applied by melee attacks, and you're playing a melee Sorceress.

In Hell the minimum MB damage would be applied by a level 70 MB Unique and its minions, which should be 52-80 for the Unique and 26-40 for its minions before the Resist -100% penalty in Hell (which applies to mana and stamina damage as well). However, due to the bug this increases to 13,312-20,480 and 6,656-10,240 respectively when applied by melee attacks.

Without Energy Shield, after the Resist -100% penalty in Hell total mana loss is doubled to 26,624-40,960 from a Unique melee hit and 13,312-20,480 from any minion melee hit.

At absolute best, level > 39 ES diverts 95% of mana damage to mana (~12,646-19,456 and ~6,323-9,728), which 20 points in Telekinesis reduces to 75% (~9,484-14,592 and ~4,742-7,296). The remaining 5% mana damage (~665-1,024 and ~332-512) is now doubled by the Resist -100% penalty in Hell (~1,331-2,048 and ~665-1,024), resulting in total mana loss of 10,816-16,640 from a Unique melee hit and 5,408-8,320 from a minion melee hit.

In short, a single melee hit from any MB Unique or minion will reduce you to zero mana, removing ES. Since you're a Werebear, you cannot cast it again without shifting back to human form, which is inadvisable mid-combat.

I never realized that mana burn behaving that way was a bug! I just assumed that it was an overpowered feature.

 

[Clervis1]

Demonlimb's level 23 Enchant charges receive the synergy bonus from Warmth, and last for over 11 minutes (672 seconds to be exact), so the main consideration is how high your own Enchant level would be (bearing in mind that at level 34 fire damage is slightly more than double that at level 23, and at level 44 it's slightly more than triple).

Oh nevermind, I was thinking of the Marrowwalk bug fix that did the converse of that.

I never realized that mana burn behaving that way was a bug! I just assumed that it was an overpowered feature.

Yea, they never seemed to bother fixing it either. It's been that way ever since I can remember.

 

[pharphis]

Popping in only to agree that ES should be a staple for every sorc. No reason not to spend the 1-4 points (prereqs) to get it. You don't need to go all out, 1 pt is enough, even w/o telekinesis.

Lots of players who don't like ES say it takes away their ability to teleport in a pinch. Imo if you were hit that hard/often in a span of time that you can't tele, you would be dead instead .
Use a full rejuv and move on, since that's what you'd do w/o ES in a tight situation anyway. I can't see a reason for wanting to take 2-3x more dmg to your life bulb (50-66% ES after skills is easy and common)

/rant

 

[khuzgan]

In my opinion, whether you use ES on a bear or not boils down to whether you consider the gain to be worth the hassle of recasting it. If you feel secure even without it, it is most likely a waste of time, while if you feel that it does help in a pinch, it's worth the shifting+casting time. An unsynergized ES will need far more recasting, adding to the upkeep cost (as in the amount of work you need to do to reap the benefits) than a synergized one, and where you draw the line of useful vs waste of time depends on playing style as well as on personal preferences.

As for the usefulness of ES on any sorc, it is indeed possible to get hit alot without risking your life and still losing your mana, since the ES absorb and mana drain is calculated before resistances. Add in that a typical vita-build has way more life than mana and that an unsynregized ES takes twice the incoming dmg done from the mana pool, and the reason some hates it becomes apparent. It's most of the time not a killer if you have good resists and some dmg reduction, but rather a slowing and annoying factor forcing you to pot to tele instead of just keeping teleing and potting on the way to restore lost hp. Given that human reactions are not instant, the extra time needed to pot before a tele, could cost you a second series of hits (now with ES gone), all in all resulting in more life lost than a direct hit to the lifebulb would've done and also forcing you to pot twice to be back at full hp. This is of course possible to mitigate by playing in a different way or gearing differently, but as in most of these highly debated cases, it boils down to personal preferences. Both ways clearly do work pretty well in the hands of different players.

 

[Clervis1]

Given that human reactions are not instant, the extra time needed to pot before a tele, could cost you a second series of hits (now with ES gone), all in all resulting in more life lost than a direct hit to the lifebulb would've done and also forcing you to pot twice to be back at full hp.

Don't forget that you can't teleport in Bear form.

Popping in only to agree that ES should be a staple for every sorc.

In my opinion, whether you use ES on a bear or not boils down to whether you consider the gain to be worth the hassle of recasting it.

I humbly disagree. With most sorcs, ES with Warmth is a freebie because they zip around with teleport absorbing occasional damage and promptly healing. But this is a melee character without the benefit of readily available a teleport escape. Leech is very much a similar freebie. The difference is that ES works with occasional damage, when the stakes are low, but when you're really SOL, ES is too slow. In terms of true returns, a full Warmth/Telekinesis/ES will not heal as fast as Life Tap. To that end, Life Tap will keep you going in high damage situations. ES will nullify the the regular whips and scorns. But the regular damage hither and thither can easily be accommodated through lots of life, pots, life leech, or life tap.

 

[Psychonautical]

Regarding the weapon, would a 5x Shael'd Runemaster hit 5 frames? If so, I think the argument over best Bear Sorc weapon is pretty much over since it has superior physical damage to Gris Caddy AND Cannot Be Frozen as well as a bit of extra cold resist as gravy.

 

[Clervis1]

You can actually hit 6 frames with it, but that requires a Faith merc. A Faith merc means no Infinity, so your overall damage would really go down.

 

[Psychonautical]

Wait wait wait...

I just checked the Fuzzydodger Werebear Amazong guide, and on the weapons list for nearly each option it lists, it goes on about "get x% IAS elsewhere to get this weapon to the next frame."

So what is it? Does off-weapon IAS do something or not? Certainly its possible to take a 6-frame weapon to 5-frame with 40-85% IAS. If Highlord's, IAS gloves, Treachery and if need be a Nosferatu were used, how could the additional 95% IAS do NOTHING for the swing speed?

And if so, why does the Fuzzydodger guide mention such small amounts of off-weapon IAS to get to the next frame?

 

[NoisemakerArrow]

Unlike with WW, off-weapon IAS does contribute to shifted attacks, but not as much as it does for non-shifted attacks. So weapon IAS is much more important than off-weapon IAS, but sometimes off-weapon IAS can take you to the next frame if weapon IAS got you close enough to it.

 

[Clervis1]

Unlike with WW, off-weapon IAS does contribute to shifted attacks, but not as much as it does for non-shifted attacks. So weapon IAS is much more important than off-weapon IAS, but sometimes off-weapon IAS can take you to the next frame if weapon IAS got you close enough to it.

Yea, it very nearly doesn't work, but it does a little, but not enough to get you to 5 fpa for any weapon. Do a google search for "attack speed calculator". The first link up has a pretty good calculator for that stuff.

 

[Namtar]

Yea, it very nearly doesn't work, but it does a little, but not enough to get you to 5 fpa for any weapon. Do a google search for "attack speed calculator". The first link up has a pretty good calculator for that stuff.

http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/speedcalc_titanseal/speedcalc_english.php

This statement got me to looking at different fast weapons and looking at the tables to try finding one where the 5's don't start at the beginning of a row, but all the ones I checked are like that!

Apparently a demon crossbow with four Shaels and an IAS jewel hits 4 FPA. Too bad it precludes dual Dreams.

 

[onderduiker]

According to the attack speed calculator, a Sorceress Werebear using a Rune Master Ettin Axe (weapon speed 10) with 100 weapon IAS and no off-weapon IAS or Fanaticism has 8 frame attack speed, which can be reduced to 7 frames with 20 off-weapon IAS; as Clervis has posted, 6 frame attack speed is achievable with level > 7 Fanaticism, but no amount of off-weapon IAS will then reduce it to 5 frames.

As to why that this, I don't know enough about the specifics of wereform attack speed to explain. Generally speaking, base weapon speed, weapon IAS and to a lesser extent skill IAS (from the likes of Werewolf and Fanaticism) have a much more significant impact on wereform attack speed than off-weapon IAS, which only has a significant influence in the absence of all or most of the former.