Zealot: Phoenix or Hoz?

[Mir]

Thanks for the link nulio but I don't understand anything. I was so glad that I managed to get the runes and even more that I had a base with 45@ resist that I couldn't resist making it.

Basically, I don't have a single problem with my current build. It just quite annoys me that my resist and my block are not maxed and Hoz just maxes both and allow me to free some space with the resist charms. Before I feel like I have a "complete" character I like to at least max those things, it just makes me feel better..

Physical immunities never really bothered me with any melee character. There are even quite rare I would say. Anyway, if I happen to encounter some, I would either just ignore them or kill them along with the Hireling's Reapers. Sotimes, mostly on Durance of Hate 3, I face those counclis and they are Immune to Physical and always stoned skin too but they are still going down really fast on P8.

Hmm, Dream doesn't really appeal me at all. I guess I'll stick to the phoenix until one day I make another on a better base. I love my phoenix after all.

How about crafting some safety amulets? they come with % to block (can get ~7%), and can have resists and skills. HLW will have to go but I dont think the loss is so bad. It can save you some of those dex points

 

[Corrupted]

How about crafting some safety amulets? they come with % to block (can get ~7%), and can have resists and skills. HLW will have to go but I dont think the loss is so bad. It can save you some of those dex points

~30% DS loss not so bad? I need some of the stuff you're smoking.
Giving up the that amount of damage undermines the main point of using Phoenix over HoZ.

 

[jeffy]

Dream(s) solve both. Max resist lightning and some points in conviction and you got a great alternate attack plus confuse procs. Sure you don't have as much phys damage as if you had G-face and phoenix in those slots, but that's the price you pay for versatility.

This. It's especially awesome for Baal runs because with an Infinity merc you don't rely on attacking close to your merc (with Reaper's). This means that you can position yourself to never get decrepified. You also get drastically increased kill speed against Wave 2 since you circumvent their high physical res and they proc Confuse almost every time so you only need to kill the main guy to get to the next wave. A Stormlash feels mandatory for making Baal faster though since your only CB source is boots. All res Paladin Dream shield is a big help since your resists will suffer with the ideal gear setup.

 

[jeffy]

But the real answer is Griswold's set with 12*5/5 light facets.

 

[zaphodbrx]

I wonder why you don't have max block?

Last time I checked, pretty much any shield + 1 point HS = max block with 136 dex needed for PB.

 

[Excalibur]

Dream seem to be messing a lot with the build I want to have and I am not really willing to give it a try. If I find another Jah my main goal will be to create a new phoenix on a better base and move the current one on another Pala (perhaps on an Avenger?). I would like to try this Dream build but not on a Zealot. :/

Edit: I though that with holy shield I wouldn't have a problem maxing shield block. Seems like I was wrong..

 

[helvete1]

Ubers? We have ubers now???

 

[krischan]

Wow, that's great news! So I gather keys and then it's ÃœT time again, hooray! My paladin is ready for that! If helvete writes it, then it must be right !!!1!!1!! *jumps up and down*

OK, seriously: That happens when people are cited out of context, somebody else cites that in return etc. etc

Without shield he might take more damage, but he will kill faster, so I wouldn't say he will take 4x times more damage.

Show me a two-hander which deals twice as much damage as the crappiest Grief one-hander imaginable. No matter what you find, fight hell Lister on p8 with it for 100 times. I guess you have to run each time he's PI or has mana leech or fanaticism and even die from time to time, preferably when these abilities come in combination or together with being extra fast. Even with a shield it can be a bit problematic.

In the end it's all about playing style. For me a 1hand zealot gives almost no challenge.

Well, that's you, but not what the OP asked

 

[nulio]

What is done is done. Spending a Jah on a second Phoenix just because of a few dexterity points seems a bad plan.

It's not like we're talking about an optimal build going to the Moor or MFO. Or that you're swimming in HR.


Edit: where did you see me saying he would inflict twice as much damage? It was you saying he would take four times as much damage. Heck, if we ignore killing speed, it would be more than 4x times the damage because of lower defense, and no choice of using a Ber in the HoZ, for example.

 

[Excalibur]

It's not like the second one will go to waste but yeah it's not the best thing I can do. After all, it will definitely take months to make another. I guess I'll just add the remaining Dexterity points.

 

[krischan]

Edit: where did you see me saying he would inflict twice as much damage? It was you saying he would take four times as much damage. Heck, if we ignore killing speed, it would be more than 4x times the damage because of lower defense, and no choice of using a Ber in the HoZ, for example.

In my mind, I compared it with an imaginary two Grief weapons in both hands, but if you deal double Grief damage with a two-hander, you still have to leech twice as much to keep your life bulb as well-filled as with a shield... and give away holy shield. Whatever, having to apply more battle tactics seems to be what gives you a challenge

 

[onderduiker]

Then maximize kill speed, and for that I would choose Phoenix over HoZ.

When comparing DPS, bear in mind that the delay triggered by the Phoenix shield's 40% Chance to Cast Level 22 Firestorm on Striking can add a delay between Zeal sequences, effectively decreasing attack speed: see this recent analysis.

I would like to create a 2-handed zealot too but this one is sticking with a shield. But if you had to go for a 2-handed weapon, is a Death much superior to a BotD?

With Guillaume's Face, Highlord's Wrath, Gore Rider and a Death Colossus Sword, you will have 100% Chance of Crushing Blow, and 100% Deadly Strike from level 80 onwards; level 20 Fanaticism and 52 IAS (15 Jewel, 20 Amulet, 20 gloves) gets your attack speed to 5/5/5/5/11, while 58 IAS (+10 belt) is required for maximum attack speed, 5/5/5/5/10 (or level 27 Fanaticism and 54 IAS).

Just wondering, why you are not using exile for the ubers? LoH also grabt 350% damage to demons so that would be a huge bonus. My bnet experience is limited and I have never been on Uber runs so I am just asking.

+% Damage to Demons is not applied by Smite, which is preferred to Zeal as it always hits and cannot be blocked, and focuses damage on the uber bosses rather than spreading it between them and their minions.

You also get drastically increased kill speed against Wave 2 since you circumvent their high physical res and they proc Confuse almost every time so you only need to kill the main guy to get to the next wave.

It's not like the Chaos Sanctuary, where you only need to open all the seals and kill the three Super Unique monsters to spawn Diablo (and kill every remaining monster); Baal will not summon any wave until he is no longer aware of any monster, which means they all either have to be killed or lured back to the entrance of the throne room (so you don't actually need to kill any Super Unique).

 

[nulio]

In my mind, I compared it with an imaginary two Grief weapons in both hands, but if you deal double Grief damage with a two-hander, you still have to leech twice as much to keep your life bulb as well-filled as with a shield... and give away holy shield. Whatever, having to apply more battle tactics seems to be what gives you a challenge

I see It's hard to compare unless one is sure of the rest gear for each setup. If one is going for maximum damage possible and doesn't mind previous versions items 1.07 eth base both setups will go higher. And without atma bug - which is a big plus for me - death setup gains some advantage. Then when doing the math with Phoenix we have to consider firestorm proc'ing, so it's even harder to compare. And it's just the damage part, if we start factoring needs of leeching because of higher damage being taken, it's a big spreadsheet! And it's one of the things I love in D2!

Zeal Pally will never be a great contender for efficiency, so for me it's being stylish and being fun to play with yeah

And I'm sure that after a while Excalibur will feel the need to make his Pally more challenging. The only paladin easier to play than a zealot is a right click zealot! ^^

 

[helvete1]

It's not like the Chaos Sanctuary, where you only need to open all the seals and kill the three Super Unique monsters to spawn Diablo (and kill every remaining monster); Baal will not summon any wave until he is no longer aware of any monster, which means they all either have to be killed or lured back to the entrance of the throne room (so you don't actually need to kill any Super Unique).

I believe he meant to say that a monster cursed with confuse isn't recognized by baal, but bosses cannot be confused. This leads to baal summoning next wave (or entering the worldstone chamber) regardless of how many monsters are close, as long as they are all cursed with confuse.

 

[krischan]

That's an interesting alternative to parking a problematic Baal wave :scratchchin:

 

[onderduiker]

I believe he meant to say that a monster cursed with confuse isn't recognized by baal, but bosses cannot be confused. This leads to baal summoning next wave (or entering the worldstone chamber) regardless of how many monsters are close, as long as they are all cursed with confuse.

Ah, I see: apologies to jeffy.

I'd read about this in reference to a bug causing Baal to stop summoning the next waves (the suggested cause being monsters killed by other monsters not being counted as dead), but I've not been able to reproduce this bug so it might have been fixed (although the last reference I've found to Confuse in the patch notes is for 1.10, and the reports I read were made a couple of years after it was released). Has anyone ever experienced this post-1.10?

Although since the reports I've read concerned Delirium, the bug could be caused by conversion by Mind Blast cast when struck instead...

That's an interesting alternative to parking a problematic Baal wave :scratchchin:

Except for Lister the Tormentor's Minions of Destruction, since Confuse does not apply to them. However, they're easy to lure back to the entrance of the throne room.

 

[pharphis]

That's an interesting alternative to parking a problematic Baal wave :scratchchin:

you should see frozzzen's ball run record. I don't have the link...
(help someone!)

 

[Excalibur]

Guys one more thing. Which of those two rings would you use? I was using the first one and I though I would barely find something better, but the I found the second one which grants me enough resistances to easily max my resistances and even 13 dex to raise my block up to 68%!

Entropy Band
Ring
Required Level: 65
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 83
Fingerprint: 0xe159eeb9
+94 to Attack Rating
+7 to Minimum Damage
Fire Resist +4%
Lightning Resist +24%
Cold Resist +4%
Poison Resist +4%
7% Life stolen per hit
5% Mana stolen per hit

Wraith Hold
Ring
Required Level: 48
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 90
Fingerprint: 0x906a7607
+13 to Dexterity
Fire Resist +8%
Lightning Resist +18%
Cold Resist +8%
Poison Resist +38%
5% Life stolen per hit
32% Extra Gold from Monsters