The Hole - Mini Mafia game

[Goryani]

Snark much?

Yes!

You decided, based upon your "feeling" that BPC wasn't scum, that you would not put the lock vote on him and tried (successfully) to derail the train on him, despite the hugely erratic posts he made all day.

Yes!

You took it upon yourself to be the sole arbiter of whether the lynch would happen (time was running out rapidly, there was no guarantee anyone else would show up, and you refused to ensure that the town used our only power), based solely upon your opinion that BPC is a townie, despite the almost ridiculous amount of posts he made that would seem to indicate he's either scum or suicidal. Your refusal to seal the deal was the proximate cause to the town failing to lynch anyone day one, and you can equivocate and toss snark around all you like, but that won't change the fact that you derailed that train for no better reason than your "feeling".

No! I am responsible for not voting Bipolar Chemist but I am not responsible for anyone else. I am not responsible for you changing your vote. I am not responsible for BA not voting earlier. I am not responsible for CG not voting. I am not responsible for TC not voting for BPC.

Trying to blame me for your and their actions is malicious.

You derailed the wagon with very little time left in the day. The only active people at that point were you and the people who already had votes on BPC. Since you refused to vote for BPC, we were forced to go to another option, but we lacked enough active people to lynch you and you refused to lynch BPC, so yes, it's your fault.

1. It is not correct that I was the only player online to vote BPC that didn't already vote BPC (you seem to be ignoring BA).
2. If you can be fooled into believing someone that says "sorry, I wasn't online so don't blame me for a no-lynch" then you will lose countless game. But I don't believe you are fooled. You're trying to blame me and only me despite multiple players involvement.
3. Throughout your rants, you ignore the possibility of a Bad Ash lynch. Why is that?

You made the play, so don't go trying to weasel out of it afterwards.

I am taking credit for my actions. I will not "take credit" for yours or for others.

"I don't think X players is Y role" is never a good enough explanation, especially when said player had the post history in the game that BPC did when you made the comment. You would [highlight]never[/highlight] accept that from someone else, so why do you expect us to accept it from you?

You are disappointed. I'd say I hate being right but I don't hate it.

You may be partially right about never accepting "that" [though to be honest, I'm not sure your intended meaning of "that" at this point so I'll assume it's the reason I gave in #131]. [snarky]As it turns out, I'm never wrong about myself. That can't be said for others.[/snarky]I would certainly poke and prod someone to see if they mean it or backtrack or skirt around the issue. Whether I believe it or not will depend on many issues.

And never is such a strong word considering I can prove otherwise. It's when I unvoted someone and made myself the only viable lynch that day. We were tied in votes late in the day. I think we were each 1 vote shy of a lynch. I became convinced they were townie so I unvoted. It turned into a no-lynch day. It'll take a bit to find the right game/post. Maybe if I have some spare time.

You and I both know the forum search function is broken. Challenging me to an impossible task and then gloating when I can't search your posts ... that's your play to convince us you're a good guy?

You made it sound like personal experience. We have played in 3? 4? games together. Out of those, search works for all but the NCIS game.

On the other hand, I can show multiple posts where I have previously said what I said in this game. See last game for the most recent example. If search worked for some older games, I'd give you a phrase to look for: pursuit of a lynch. Again, it may take me a while to find the exact game/post. Again, maybe if I have some spare time.

Is everyone else as confused by this as I am? You support D1 lynches (except yesterday apparently). You oppose D1 lynches regardless (of what?) and you oppose lynching for information. I hate to tell you but apart from a Sane Cop's reveal, a major slip up or a party host bit of information that confirms someone is scum, [highlight]all lynches[/highlight] are for information.

"Regardless" is a broad term. I won't lynch someone I consider a townie. I won't do a planned test of a treestump or similar role in place of the usual lynch.

Lynching for information is also a broad term but it does NOT include lynching someone if you think they are scummy enough to be lynched. I gave some examples. You lynch to eliminate scum. Information happens but isn't the goal. I am against a lynch where information is more important than finding scum.

Speaking of not answering questions, not only did you refuse to answer mine, you responded with a lot of snark and OMGUS style comments to shove a pile of questions back on me.

What the.... what question did I not answer?

Incomming snarky reply!!!!!

My snarky reply was to a post that contained no questions.

 

[Goryani]

And yet you refuse to explain why BPC is "likely" to be town, and your reasoning for why Bad Ash is "likely" to be scum appears non-existent.

In regard to BPC. I've already explained it. See post 131. In regards to BA, you are correct. I hadn't/haven't given my reasoning yet. I don't give explanations for each and every vote. I'm curious to see if anyone agrees with me without me having to explain my thoughts.

 

[Goryani]

Major slip here. Anyone who talks as if they know who is scum and who isn't and whether scum would vote in tandem or not in tandem or whether scum would have locked a townie lynch (if you believe Gory's premise that he and bpc are both townies, which he has thus far offered no reason for us to believe) has information that the town doesn't.

9 players. 2 mafia. 2 players that needed a single vote to be lynched. Only 1 player voted for both lynch candidates. I'm not going to vote for me. BPC isn't going to vote for BPC. There is no permutation of alignment distribution that allows BA to be certain town makes the locking vote on a mafia unless BA is mafia. This is doubly, triply, true considering BA originally talked about the choice between HIMSELF and I rather than BipolarChemist and I.

 

[Solar Ice]

Vote tally:

Goryani (2): Bad Ash, Drixx

 

[Bad Ash]

Yes because you either aren't reading or aren't believing what I am saying.

I check the forum and see a BPC train with people not wanting to lock too soon. I see someone not voting BPC and placing a 2nd vote on me saying he won't be voting for BPC. I should be voting for you there 100 times out of 100 if I am town to put you at two votes as well.

The mistake came in the next time I look at the game the day is over. If I had read the next post that said there's forty minutes left clearly I would have voted for BPC. Believe it or not it's the truth. I am not talking about magical gut feelings on day one, I lost track of time while at work. Like I said which is scummier??? :??

You're feeling is what I can't and won't get over you today.

The proganda posts are you slandering and twisting what everyone is saying to cast yourself in a better light. Its mafia that's what ya do but it's overly aggressive and reeks of scum

 

[Drixx]

9 players. 2 mafia. 2 players that needed a single vote to be lynched. Only 1 player voted for both lynch candidates. I'm not going to vote for me. BPC isn't going to vote for BPC. There is no permutation of alignment distribution that allows BA to be certain town makes the locking vote on a mafia unless BA is mafia. This is doubly, triply, true considering BA originally talked about the choice between HIMSELF and I rather than BipolarChemist and I.

You actually got me to waste the time charting this out based upon who voted, who didn't vote, etc... and I don't come to the same conclusion as you do. You're going to have to show me how you arrived at this conclusion so I can show you why you're wrong or realize where I went wrong.

 

[Kestegs]

My own thoughts:

Goryani is always tough for me to read. I get an aggressive town vibe from him, but I freely admit that I've often gotten that vibe and seen him flip scum. Bipolar was pretty much a shoe-in for a lynch, and Goryani derailed it. If Bipolar is town, I can't see a scum Goryani doing that and putting himself at such a risk. Since I'm currently operating under the assumption that BPC is town, I'm leaning towards Goryani being town as well.

I'm not do sure I agree that gory wouldn't stick his neck out for a townie if he was mafia.

And why do you assume bpc is town?

 

[Kestegs]

I'm not feeling any better about gory, he's lamisting all over himself.

 

[Caluin Graye]

And why do you assume bpc is town?

Out of nine players, only two are scum. I have to assume that at least someone is town, and as I've explained, I perceive him to be more town than scum.

 

[Kestegs]

Out of nine players, only two are scum. I have to assume that at least someone is town, and as I've explained, I perceive him to be more town than scum.

No, you never explained (at least not that I could find in the past 7 pages)

You gave some nice circular reasoning on how gory and bpc somehow prove each other's townieness, but you never actually explain why you think bpc is town.

 

[Caluin Graye]

No, you never explained (at least not that I could find in the past 7 pages)

You gave some nice circular reasoning on how gory and bpc somehow prove each other's townieness, but you never actually explain why you think bpc is town.

This might help.

Is BPC's reactions reasonable for someone receiving a random vote?

Generally, though - no. His reactions are defensive in nature, instead of aggressive. He OMGUS votes kestegs. He claims randomness the bane of Day 1 voting. However, I'm seeing this as new player actions, rather than scummy behaviour.

Nothing since then has happened to change my mind about BPC. Therefore, I still operate under the assumption that he is more likely to be town than scum. (AKA, 'he's town.')

 

[ThunderCat]

I haven't read any of the posts from this day phase, been busy with RL.

I'll do my best to catch up tonight followed by a proper post, if not, tomorrow morning. My apologies.

 

[Goryani]

Yes because you either aren't reading or aren't believing what I am saying.

I check the forum and see a BPC train with people not wanting to lock too soon. I see someone not voting BPC and placing a 2nd vote on me saying he won't be voting for BPC. I should be voting for you there 100 times out of 100 if I am town to put you at two votes as well.

The mistake came in the next time I look at the game the day is over. If I had read the next post that said there's forty minutes left clearly I would have voted for BPC. Believe it or not it's the truth. I am not talking about magical gut feelings on day one, I lost track of time while at work. Like I said which is scummier??? :??

You're feeling is what I can't and won't get over you today.

The proganda posts are you slandering and twisting what everyone is saying to cast yourself in a better light. Its mafia that's what ya do but it's overly aggressive and reeks of scum

Not knowing the time left *might* cause you to miss voting BPC at the end but it won't cause any of the things you said or did. Most important are voting me and exclusind yourself as a townie that would lynch scum when you declined to lock BPC when you instead voted me.

You could have put BPC at lock-1 with 150 minutes left to play. You didn't. You could have locked BPC with 20 minutes left in the day. You didn't. Instead you voted me.

If you think BPC is scum, you should have voted BPC 90 times out of 100 with one of those two opportunities regardless of how much time was left in the day. The other 10 times are for gambits you plan on later correcting (such as voting Gory to see who would vote Gory but didn't vote BPC or to see who would unvote BPC to vote Gory). Was it a gambit? No. You would have said so by now. You would have talked about the other players by now.

If you are unsure about BPC, you may vote me to obtain more information but your own words make that reason impossible. You said you would have been happy to vote/lock BPC. You said that today. That means you were sure enough to vote. You also haven't mentioned learning something as a result of such a test vote.

Maybe, just maybe, you didn't know the vote counts. But no, multiple times you mentioned your vote made it 2 vs 2. Multiple times you said the reason you didn't vote was because of time rather than not knowing the vote count.

Having eliminated all those other possibilities, the only remaining reason for you not voting BPC is if you think/know he is town. Your words say one thing but your actions say the opposite. That is scum play.

 

[crawlingdeadman1]

I haven't read any of the posts from this day phase, been busy with RL.

I'll do my best to catch up tonight followed by a proper post, if not, tomorrow morning. My apologies.

Same here. I've read them but feel lost. Need to re read them.

One thing that stood out to me though was that there was a lot of talking and not a whole lot of voting, are we going to wind up another day phase with no lynch? I still feel the same about BPC that I had when I voted him D1.

Vote: BipolarChemist

I'd jump on the Gory train if this situation weren't so like last game in which Gory was posting and trying to help, but we lynched him anyway and he turned out town.

 

[ThunderCat]

Finding townies is how you find scum. If you remove pieces from the pool, then you have a smaller pool from which to work with. It's obviously not an exact science, but when you focus so much on finding only the scummy behaviour, you often over look the town things that people do. Those things can be just as telling as someone's scum behaviour. By only focusing on the scummy aspects, you're setting yourself up to be able to justify lynching anyone for whatever perceived behaviour you can justify as scummy. Then, when the person lynched flips town, you can simply point back to all the scummy behaviour while conveniently ignoring any townie behaviours.

That's scum tactics. 'Lynch anyone that's not me.'

Let me clarify. By "finding townies/scum" I was under the impression we were talking about finding them via lynching, thus confirming the alignment. Now, while what you say holds true about focusing on one part and missing the other could work both ways. Obviously one has to take both sides into consideration and weigh them out.

Snark much? You decided, based upon your "feeling" that BPC wasn't scum, that you would not put the lock vote on him and tried (successfully) to derail the train on him, despite the hugely erratic posts he made all day. You took it upon yourself to be the sole arbiter of whether the lynch would happen (time was running out rapidly, there was no guarantee anyone else would show up, and you refused to ensure that the town used our only power), based solely upon your opinion that BPC is a townie, despite the almost ridiculous amount of posts he made that would seem to indicate he's either scum or suicidal. Your refusal to seal the deal was the proximate cause to the town failing to lynch anyone day one, and you can equivocate and toss snark around all you like, but that won't change the fact that you derailed that train for no better reason than your "feeling".



You derailed the wagon with very little time left in the day. The only active people at that point were you and the people who already had votes on BPC. Since you refused to vote for BPC, we were forced to go to another option, but we lacked enough active people to lynch you and you refused to lynch BPC, so yes, it's your fault. You made the play, so don't go trying to weasel out of it afterwards.



"I don't think X players is Y role" is never a good enough explanation, especially when said player had the post history in the game that BPC did when you made the comment. You would [highlight]never[/highlight] accept that from someone else, so why do you expect us to accept it from you?



You and I both know the forum search function is broken. Challenging me to an impossible task and then gloating when I can't search your posts ... that's your play to convince us you're a good guy?



Is everyone else as confused by this as I am? You support D1 lynches (except yesterday apparently). You oppose D1 lynches regardless (of what?) and you oppose lynching for information. I hate to tell you but apart from a Sane Cop's reveal, a major slip up or a party host bit of information that confirms someone is scum, [highlight]all lynches[/highlight] are for information.



Speaking of not answering questions, not only did you refuse to answer mine, you responded with a lot of snark and OMGUS style comments to shove a pile of questions back on me.

Because you refused to lock the lynch on yesterday's most odd behaving person, because you refused to answer any questions about what you had to go on besides a "feeling", because you are going totally OMGUS on everyone questioning you, because you have contradicted yourself all over the place, and most importantly because you were the scummiest player yesterday (BPC notwithstanding, assuming the odd posts were a "mafia couldn't possibly be dumb enough to call that kind of attention to themselves" LAMIST play),

Vote: Goryani

Goryani refuses to give any answers. Lots of smokescreen and OMGUS and accusation and insinuation ... but put a fan on it and you'll see it's all smoke and mirrors.

I've been reading all these posts from you in one session (as I had to catch up) and everything screams as unfounded and exaggerated accusations thrown at Goryani. What's your angle here? Are you attempting to look like you're hunting for scum? Is your tunnel vision that bad? Please help me understand what you are aiming for, as I totally fail to see it.

You actually got me to waste the time charting this out based upon who voted, who didn't vote, etc... and I don't come to the same conclusion as you do. You're going to have to show me how you arrived at this conclusion so I can show you why you're wrong or realize where I went wrong.

I realize this looks like I'm heavily defending Goryani, and I am. After he unvoted BPC and then left himself vulnerable for a lynch, that just elevated him to townie status in my eyes. No mafia would do such a thing and there should have been people online to vote for him and secure his lynch. Day time sacrifices come mostly from town players.

The point I'm trying to make with the above quote is: Are you serious? Made you waste your time? If mafia games and research into past behavior is a waste of time, why are you still here?

Vote: Drixx

I just think you're trying to stir things up and make exaggerated cases to get townies lynched (or to provoke chaos and cause no lynches). Things which mafia would do.

 

[Kestegs]

This might help.




Nothing since then has happened to change my mind about BPC. Therefore, I still operate under the assumption that he is more likely to be town than scum. (AKA, 'he's town.')

Ah yes, you gave him the noob card. Even though this is his 3rd (at least I know) game. Good work.

Let me clarify. By "finding townies/scum" I was under the impression we were talking about finding them via lynching, thus confirming the alignment. Now, while what you say holds true about focusing on one part and missing the other could work both ways. Obviously one has to take both sides into consideration and weigh them out.





I've been reading all these posts from you in one session (as I had to catch up) and everything screams as unfounded and exaggerated accusations thrown at Goryani. What's your angle here? Are you attempting to look like you're hunting for scum? Is your tunnel vision that bad? Please help me understand what you are aiming for, as I totally fail to see it.



I realize this looks like I'm heavily defending Goryani, and I am. After he unvoted BPC and then left himself vulnerable for a lynch, that just elevated him to townie status in my eyes. No mafia would do such a thing and there should have been people online to vote for him and secure his lynch. Day time sacrifices come mostly from town players.

The point I'm trying to make with the above quote is: Are you serious? Made you waste your time? If mafia games and research into past behavior is a waste of time, why are you still here?

Vote: Drixx

I just think you're trying to stir things up and make exaggerated cases to get townies lynched (or to provoke chaos and cause no lynches). Things which mafia would do.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with giving him so much town cred just for that move. I do agree on drixx though, but he's still a distant third on my scum list.

 

[Goryani]

You actually got me to waste the time charting this out based upon who voted, who didn't vote, etc... and I don't come to the same conclusion as you do. You're going to have to show me how you arrived at this conclusion so I can show you why you're wrong or realize where I went wrong.

Then show everyone.

 

[Caluin Graye]

Ah yes, you gave him the noob card. Even though this is his 3rd (at least I know) game. Good work.

Second that I know of. So... yes.

 

[Bad Ash]

I don't get how multiple people are saying that no mafia would do what gory did.

I think if you look at the game dynamic this is the question for people: If you were mafia, in a 9 person game, how quick would you throw your partner under the bus? If Gory and BPC are partners, I can see him doing exactly what he did yesterday. It isn't even a stretch. It's by no means a lock, but it isn't a stretch.

 

[Bad Ash]

Another interesting pro-gory observation is peoples stance on it.

It seems that Gory, BPC, CG, and TC are pro-goryish/can see where BPC is coming from.

That leaves me, drixx, kestegs, CDM.

So easy way out: if Gory/BPC is town, you would think the mafia would enjoy providing pressure on them. If just as an example TC is scum and knows gory is town, it would be a risky move to be directing pressure off of gory because who knows where it can land.

Is it reasonable to assume our two mafia are in one of these two groups of four? Possibly. Something to think about.

And Gory: Last thing I will say before ignoring the issue because I am sick of talking about it and you either believe it or you dont. My willingness to vote for BPC once again came with not knowing when the day ended. The last time I checked the forum, I voted for you, I come back and the day is over. I evened our votes if BPC fell apart. If it didnt, I would have been happy to lock him at the end of the day as I am for day 1 lynches.