Range Tournament?

[JayeM]

Range Tournament?

We've had a couple of melee tournaments lately, how about a range tournament, in which all the characters use bows or crossbows? No other equipment restrictions, except that shields can't be used of course. The usual rules: HC, untwinked, etc.

Amazons: Since they would obviously have an advantage in such a tourney, don't let them use the bow/crossbow skills.

Assassins: No martial arts of course, but Traps and Shadow Disciplines are allowed.

Barbarians: None of the weapon masteries would help, leaving increased stamina, speed, iron skin and natural resistance. I'm not sure how the combat skills would work with a bow, but all war cries would be allowed.

Druids: Shapeshifting would put them back into melee fighting so that tree would be out. And to keep them from leaning too much on their pets, only 1 (or 2) of each type.

Necromancer: Same caps on summons as druids. Poison dagger wouldn't be useable, but everything else looks ok to me.

Paladins: All auras ok, not sure about which skills will work.

Sorceress: I don't see any way to eliminate any of the spells, but how would we keep sorceresses from using spells exclusively?

Mercs: Should we take range a bit further and allow only Act 1 (and maybe 3) mercs?

I'd appreciate any input:
1) Would there be any interest in such a tournament?
2) Do you have any suggestions on the rules?
3) Is"Home on the Range" too hokey a name for the tournament, or should it be something like "Range Wars"?

 

[PurpleKush]

Re: Range Tournament?

1.Hm I'd be interested in this tounament

2. a suggestion for sorcs is to put each point in a different tree. Let's say lvl 1 you put a point in Ice Bolt but level 2 you have to put it in either Fire bolt or the Lightning tree. Or to make it easier just say you have to have the same number of points in each tree at one time. Or you could have Light 2 pts Fire 1 Cold 1 because you only get one skill point a level and can't make it equal each level but they'd all have to stay within one point of eachother.

3. That name made me laugh with how cheesy it is lol but I wouldn't mind it.

 

[JayeM]

Re: Range Tournament?

Thanx, Kush.

After giving it some thought, I came up with what I think is a more workable notion for the sorceress. Since the idea is to emphasize the bow in this tournament, we could forbid any spell that targets one enemy. Then she would still have her crowd control, but the bow would get a lot of use. Fire Bolt, Ice Bolt, Ice Blast, and Lightning. These spells could have points in them for prerequisites/synergies, but could not be used. This would also apply to:

Assassin: Fire Blast, Blade Fury, Psychic Hammer
Necromancer: Bone Spear
Paladin: Blessed Hammer

 

[Merlin The Wizzard]

Re: Range Tournament?

1. Not really up my alley.
2. If you wish to explore this theme however, I'd just say that the main attack should at all times be a bow/xbow as soon as you have one. I'd also make a rule about the amount of summons allowed (which you intend to do), and disallow any skill that deals focused damage over a distance. Hence, forcing the characters to rely on the bow.

Amazon - Passive skill tree only.
Asassin - No martial arts, from shadow discipline tree only CoS, Venom, Shadow warrior/master, from the traps tree bladeshield.
Barbarian - Warcries would be very useful here, as well as incresed speed. You might want to consider limiting 'warcry' the lvl 30 damage dealer (allthough the range is limited)
Necromancer - Apart from bone armor, bone wall and bone prison no points in the poison &bone tree. And I'd limit the summon tree to a golem and revives. Although skeleton mages fit your theme nicely, you might want to allow them.
Paladin - The aura's will be quite useful. I would disallow those that deal elemental damage, Holy Fire/Shock/Cold. The shield skills will obviously be useless, but the other aura's should be more then enough to compensate. Not sure if there are any combat skills that work with bows.
Sorceress - It's hard to deal with the points here. Allow the armor skills in the cold tree, and energy shield and teleport. Perhaps Thunderstorm... But it's going to be a struggle to get all those skill points in there.
Druid - They are more or less forced to rely on Cyclone armor and the summon tree, as the other skills are offlimit.

3. How about 'The master takes a bow' ???

 

[NacRuno]

Re: Range Tournament?

I recently bumped into a similar idea started by Jason in here. I guess he couldn't get started in the end but the ideas in the thread might be useful for you.

I have a planned project of 7 different classes all wielding x/bows, therefore i will most likely join a tourney like this. I didn't start any of my chars other than a ranged enchantress yet.

In the thread i linked the suggestion of giving different points to different builds seems the best way imo, or each class can compete within its category but that requires more participation to be a tourney.

My suggestions for the builds pretty much overlap with what merlin said. Necros should definately be given a golem, otherwise it becomes a mojomancer . Also the summoner druid is not such an easy build to play by itself for you to ban them. For the sorc, all spell directly damaging the oponent should be disallowed. The war cry of the barb should be allowed as long as its stun is utilized with the x/bow rather then its damage.

One thing i disagree with merlin, not allowing paladin holy skills. Paladin is already a much easier ranger even without those skills. Fanatism, and even might put paladin far ahead of other classes. Just allow everything other than blessed hammer and let rangers use any skill they wish to use. In the end it will all depend on how much challenge participants want.

Also i don't like the sound of a passive-only bowazon. Maybe allowing only multishot might be okay for those who want to try that very fun to play and not over-powered skill.

 

[Jason Maher]

Re: Range Tournament?

I was about to say I had a similar idea, but thankfully NacRuno has already done the hard work and found it. Basically I didn't have time at that point to develop the ideas properly. Feel free to steal ideas at will from my thread.

 

[JayeM]

Re: Range Tournament?

Thanx for the help. OK, here is an attempt to keep balance among all the classes, and to keep each class's individual character and some form of crowd control.

Amazon:
Javelin/Spear: None
Passive/Magic: All
Bow/Crossbow: None, except Multishot

Assassin:
Martial Arts: None
Shadow: All, except Psychic Hammer
Traps: All, except Blade Fury and Fire Blast

Barbarian:
Combat Masteries: All, except for weapon masteries
Combat Skills: None, except for Leap
Warcries: All

Druid:
Elemental: All, except Arctic Blast
Shape Shifting: None
Summoning: All (limit of 1 on each type of creature)

Necromancer:
Summoning: All (Limit of 1 on each type of summons)
Poison/Bone: All, except Bone Spear and Poison Dagger
Curses: All

Paladin:
Defensive Auras: All
Offensive Auras: All
Combat Skills: None

Sorceress:
Cold: All, except Ice Bolt and Blast
Fire: All, except for Fire Bolt
Lightning: All, except for Lightning

Mercs: Act 1 Rogues only

 

[NacRuno]

Re: Range Tournament?

I think your current restrictions are very unbalanced. You ban dire wolves but allow a sorc to use blizzard or a necro to use CE as a back-up. Keeping a single summon around is a nice solution for summoners but elemental skills need more restrictions imo. Otherwise x/bows become just a back-up for those builds.

My suggestions:

Assassin:    Traps: None, except for blade shield
             Martial Arts: None, ?(except for 1pt Dragon Flight)
			 
Druid:       Elemental: None, except for cyclone armor, ?(hurricane)

Necromancer: Poison/Bone: None, except for Bone Armour/Wall/Prison

Sorceress:   Fire: None, except for Enchant & Fire Mastery & Hydra
             Cold: None, except for Armor skills and Cold Mastery
             Lightning: None, except for Teleport, Energy Shield, Telekinesis, ?(Thunderstorm and LM)

Even i am not sure about the ones in parenthesis with a (?)

 

[Vang]

Re: Range Tournament?

I'd allow the druid to have Hurricane and Armageddon, as well as the whole summon tree. An untwinked hunter isn't the most powerful.

 

[JayeM]

Re: Range Tournament?

That was what I was thinking too, Vang. I didn't ban dire wolves, NacRuno, I just limited them...perhaps I should increase the limit to 2. The rule of thumb on spells was anything that didn't target just one enemy, which would compete with the bow. I'd like the characters of any class to have at least a chance of making it to guardian, and I doubt they could do that relying solely on the bow.

 

[Merlin The Wizzard]

Re: Range Tournament?

The problem with that idea is that you are setting things up so that the bow may become nothing more then the item occupying the weapon slot to meet the tournament restrictions. A bonemancer isn't going to use the bow in his hand much. A blizzsorc probably doesn't even care about it.

 

[Jason Maher]

Re: Range Tournament?

For reference, here was the skill set I was intending to allow:

Amazon: Magic Arrow, Fire Arrow, Cold Arrow, Passives except Valk and Decoy
Assassin: Venom, Cloak of Shadows, Burst of Speed, Fade, Psychic Hammer, Mind Blast, Blade Shield
Barbarian: Leap, Increased Stamina, Increased Speed, Iron Skin, Natural Resistance, all Warcries except War Cry
Druid: All Spirits and Vines, Shape-Shifting tree (the bow acts as a low-damage melee weapon when shifted, good luck with that), Cyclone Armour, Hurricane, Armageddon
Necromancer: All Curses, Bone Prison, Bone Wall, Bone Armour
Paladin: All Auras
Sorceress: Enchant, Warmth, Teleport, Telekinesis, Thunderstorm, Static Field, Cold Armours, Masteries

I'm fairly certain none of the Assassin's Martial Arts skills work with bows/xbows, otherwise I would have allowed them. Also note the absence of summons (except the Druids vines and spirits), would have made it very unbalanced for certain classes with my requirement of an Act 1 merc. I agree with adding multishot to the Amazon's permitted list as it is not too unbalancing (no damage enhancement, just lots of arrows and mana to cast).

 

[JayeM]

Re: Range Tournament?

@Jason Maher: Why didn't you go ahead with your tournament? I'd be willing to go along with your skill set if that's what people want, though it seems a bit too limited to me. But I'm starting to think there isn't enough interest to justify a tournament.

 

[Trim]

Re: Range Tournament?

People would probably join, but I suspect the problem right now is timing. There's quite a few tournaments going on ATM (which is why I'd suspect Aurelius' isn't highly populated), plus the start of the MFO and the PvP tournies at the end of the month. If there were less going on, I think it would attract a lot more attention.

I also don't think the casters are nerfed enough. Bone Spirit, Blizzard, Frozen Orb, maxed Novas... if there's no restrictions on these, there's no need to even have a bow. ...Unless, that is, you mixed up the "All" and "None" statements for the sorceress.

I like Jason's skillset, except to maybe allow War Cry but no synergies (or a max slvl cap) and allow a tank for the druid. Otherwise, they're pretty spot-on. edit: Actually, I'm not against Frost Nova, too, but that has to be limited as well. Certainly no full synergies & max Cold Mastery.

 

[Jason Maher]

Re: Range Tournament?

@Jason Maher: Why didn't you go ahead with your tournament? I'd be willing to go along with your skill set if that's what people want, though it seems a bit too limited to me. But I'm starting to think there isn't enough interest to justify a tournament.

I was too busy at the time. Then I just never bothered to resurrect the idea.

 

[jamesixgun]

Re: Range Tournament?

As I've never enjoyed ranged toons much, I'd definitely be interested in giving this a go, if only to see how many HC Rangers I could kill off in, say, 10 days.

As to rule set, I like Jason's a great deal, though I agree that some limited form of crowd control and/or AoE skills should be allowed. Perhaps a cap on some sorc skills and sinner traps would balance things out. But I am not expert enough to really comment.

As to the name: Home on the Range is indeed hokey, but not as silly as Power Rangers or Lone Rangers or Out of Rangers or Within Rangers or something like that. . . (I especially like Power Rangers, myself :yes:.)

 

[Trim]

Re: Range Tournament?

And together we could be the Texas Rangers!! :grin:
[/OT]

 

[JayeM]

Re: Range Tournament?

Ah, my neighbors!

Ok, something not as easy as my list, but not as hard as Jason's...
Something like this allowed skill list:
Amazon: Magic Arrow, Fire Arrow, Cold Arrow, Passives except Valk
Assassin: Venom, Cloak of Shadows, Burst of Speed, Fade, Blade Sentinel, Shock Web. Charged Bolt Sentry, Lightning Sentry, Blade Shield
Barbarian: Leap, Increased Stamina, Increased Speed, Iron Skin, Natural Resistance, all Warcries Including War Cry
Druid: All Spirits and Vines, 2 Ravens, 1 Wolf (either) or Grizzly, Cyclone Armour, Hurricane, Armageddon
Necromancer: All Curses, 1 Skeleton or Mage along with Mastery, Clay Golem, Golem Mastery, Bone Prison, Bone Wall, Bone Armour
Paladin: All Auras (powerful enough like this I think)
Sorceress: Enchant, Warmth, Teleport, Telekinesis, Thunderstorm, Static Field, Chain Lightning (10 points max), Cold Armours, Frost Nova, Blizzard (5 points max), NO Masteries

Let's face it, a Druid without pets isn't a Druid, just as a Necromancer without undead is just an eccentric albino. So how about this list?

 

[HanShotFirst]

Re: Range Tournament?

So how about this list?

Looks very interesting but as TheReadMenace pointed out there are already a lot of tournaments going and I think I have already overextended myself (plus 1.13 could become available for testing anytime . . . but this has been true for months).

My only thoughts on the latest list is that the Assassin seems to have very large advantage being able to use Lightning Sentry (and really Charged Bolt Sentry too). Lightning Sentry seems way too powerful and I know from personal experience that you can get at least to Hell using nothing but a synergized Charged Bolt Sentry. So as it stands, I imagine that an Assassin would never ever use a bow except as a prop.

(As I understand it, the point of the tournament is to use a bow but, if you really wanted to include traps for the Assassin perhaps it would be more fun to allow the underused Fire Traps . . . but again . . . you’re back to never using the bow except as a prop).

Otherwise, it looks fun!

P.S. What on earth is anyone going to do with ten points in Chain Lightning? . . . I’m sure I must be missing something . . . onder:

 

[JayeM]

Re: Range Tournament?

I've entered Sixstringer's Sword of Destiny tournament, and it made me think of taking a page from his book (though not the whole book) for this tourney:

1) Bows and crossbows are the only weapons allowed. There is no other restriction on equipment.

2) Bows are easy to find, so no starting equipment may be used until a bow is found or bought.

3) Re-running of areas is permitted. ATMA and RWM are allowed. Untwinked, hardcore, or softcore until first death. Players may choose their players setting and change it at will. Enter as many times as you wish.

4) The character and merc can make bow kills only. Curses, auras, buffs, etc. are allowed to enhance the damage of the bow, but spells or skills which deal damage without a bow are not permitted (they can, however, be used as synergies or have a point as a prequisite.) Damage return skills are OK, such as Thorns, Iron Maiden, and Spirit of Barbs.

5) Summons, Minions, and Mercs: The only mercenaries allowed are the Act I rogues. You can have no more than two damage-dealing minions, including mercenaries. For example, a necromancer who summons a golem and a skeleton could not have a mercenary. However, a druid with a grizzly and Act I mercenary could summon his Heart of Wolverine (because it does not deal direct damage to enemies), but not a raven or poison creeper.

6) Classes: Any, though some have clear disadvantages.
SPECIFIC SKILL INFORMATION:
ASSASSIN: No traps. No mind blast. Shadow Warrior/Master allowed as long as they follow the summons rule.

AMAZON: Passive and bow trees only. Valkyries allowed as long as they follow the summons rule.

BARBARIAN: Everything except War Cry. Weapon masteries will be useless of course.

DRUID: Summons as long as they follow the summons rule. No shapeshifting, as then you're using claws and not a bow. Nothing in the elemental tree except Cyclone Armor.

NECROMANCER: All curses are permitted in combat except Confusion and Attract. Summons as long as they follow the summons rule. No poison skills, no bone spear, teeth or bone spirit. No corpse explosion.

PALADIN: No holy bolt, Fist of Heavens, blessed hammer, smite, or conversion. All auras allowed.

SORCERESS: Only skills available are Enchant, Warmth, Energy Shield, teleport, masteries, and the cold armor branch.

Winner is the highest level guardian, or the highest level character (alive or dead) when there have been no posts for 2 weeks. There will be a handicap system for the different
classes to defray the difficulty of some classes.

How would this be as compared to the last list we came up with? It would be much harder, but would solve the problem of the bow being only a prop.