Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

[lumpor]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

I DO agree that this build can run bosses and chaos sanc faster than a standard summoner. I DO agree that aura golems are fun, I DO agree that faith is underrated.

And I actually DO agree that nightfish is overrated.

However, most people don't use summonancers for running bosses or chaos sanctuary. Many use them for the pits, or ubers, or just playing around.
The faster cast rate is indeed good to have, no denying that. But aside from running bosses, I wouldn't sacrifice this:

My golem spot
Lots of damage and crushing blow on merc
Lots of skeleton damage
+skills

For:
a 3,6% faster skeleton attack speed
a 11,12 faster cast rate
a 17% faster hit recovery (all of those values were rounded up)
Iron maiden immunity for merc

In normal pvm play that is. No doubt those breakpoints and im immunity are good when bossrunning or doing chaos sanctuary, but for most of the game, those are luxuries, that aren't worth the sacrifices.

I think the guide would be good to have for those doing bossruns or chaosruns, but saying your guide is the best and thrashing other guides is not a good read for those who respect the forums.

I'm sorry to say this, but how can you say your guide has "uncontestabel greatness", and saying other builds are wrong?
I don't care even if your guide really is messiah, if it really is so correct, if we all HAVE been blinded by a2 mercs, if you're the only one with common sense.

You still just shouldn't have this attitude in a public community. Other people may be dead wrong, but saying you're so much better than others, just shows of limited social experience.

I think you can try a more friendly approach, and show calculations, and maybe even videos, and have a good comparison between the two kind of necromancers. Variants are never wrong, but your attitude is

oh, just found this post, and I wanted to quote because of greatness:

Look man, I think your build is a pretty damn good build but even I'm getting a little irritated at your constant insistance that this is the BEST summoner build. It's the best for YOUR play style. Not everyone will play the game the way you do. I play a summoner who focuses on WAY different things than you do and I'm perfectly content to sit in the back as my minions rip the monster mobs apart, even if it takes longer. If I want to tele around really quickly and do lots of damage, I'll play my light sorc. Nothing against your play style, just that it's not the reason why I specifically play a summoner. I think a lot of people have given valid points as to areas where this build would not fit THEIR play style. You've defended every one of your choices for every aspect of your build mutiple times. By this point everyone has made up their mind. If some people don't think that your build is the greatest, who cares?

I completely agree. For your playstyle, this build is perfect.

But, everyone doesn't have the same playstyle.

 

[Damae]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Frankly, I'm surprised to see so much of an uproar over mephistophilis' attitude. It's a guide, for Christ's sake, he should be enthusiastic and he should make bold statements that directly challenge the status quo. There's nothing wrong with that, and no one should be taking it personally.

This is also partly just the fundamental difference between diii.net and jsp. Jsp is fast-paced, cutthroat, obnoxious, and completely unaccepting of people who aren't 100% confident in their thoughts. Here, the pace is much slower, hence there's more of an emphasis on group discussion to come to an agreement. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but the two forums cater to two waaay different groups of people.

 

[Wizdomm]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Frankly, I'm surprised to see so much of an uproar over mephistophilis' attitude. It's a guide, for Christ's sake, he should be enthusiastic and he should make bold statements that directly challenge the status quo. There's nothing wrong with that, and no one should be taking it personally.

This is also partly just the fundamental difference between diii.net and jsp. Jsp is fast-paced, cutthroat, obnoxious, and completely unaccepting of people who aren't 100% confident in their thoughts. Here, the pace is much slower, hence there's more of an emphasis on group discussion to come to an agreement. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but the two forums cater to two waaay different groups of people.

I do agree with you that jsp and diii.net cater to different groups of people. Jsp caters to immature kids who enjoy a more "trollish" forum experience. Diii.net caters to adults who want to have intelligent and civil conversations.

And the original poster was definitely trying to piss people off with his "incontestable greatness". He claims that Might/Inifinty mercs are "lousy" and has referred to the necros that use them as "cookie-cutter crap builds."

Anyway, I would never replace my Might/Infinity merc with a Pride golem and Beast on my necro for a Faith/Bramble merc with a Infinity golem. Yea...I can't set foot in the Chaos sanctuary but I'll gladly trade that for being able to better "****" the rest of the game.

 

[deadbeater]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Damae, you forgot the basic point that others have raised: how can the OP suggest it is an 'ultimate build' when he suggest rushing? Real summon necros command armies to kill from level 1 on. Yes, I don't give a damn about rushing.

 

[drake]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

You just don't have the standing to criticize and dismiss it without trying.

thats a weak argument and, imo, what people resort to when they have no point and/or simply cant admit they're wrong. i'll take the fact you've said it countless times as proof.

the world's best guy at treating depression probably never had one himself, you know. plus, numbers have a lot to do with diablo 2, not just experience.

i dont think you've even conceded once that some points might be debatable, let alone wrong on your part. thats just pathological.

just the fact you say infinity is cheap and that therefore an infinity golem poofage is nothing more than a minor inconvenience is ludicrous. 95% of players arent that rich, if not more, and whats the point of writing a guide if its not meant for players in general (other than implicit bragging, of course).

 

[lumpor]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Because it's interesting to know the theoretical maximum. I don't really read the guides to know how to build the character. I mostly read them because they're good reads. Everyone here doesn't necessarily play diablo. I already know how to build almost any character, even ones I would think up myself, but I still read guides to hear different opinions, and see options I hadn't thought of, etc.

Even though I doubt this build's effectiveness in general pvm play compared to a standard summonancer, I'd still like to see someone with experience with a normal summonancer trying this build in the hero editor. It will be quite a while until I get to my comp with the hero editor, so I can't do it myself.

And also, playing experience isn't everything. I'll admit I've never been to hell, but I still know everything about hell playing. People may think that I'd suck at building characters because I have no experience, but knowledge is MUCH more important than experience.

My cousin, for example, has been to hell many times, and has never been on a diablo forum, and he puts points in energy on his barbs, and solely uses the character screen damage to determine which weapon to use.

Still, is there anyone here who could try the build?

 

[balkan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

I'm completely amazed by the endless tolerance and patience you guys exhibit. You deserve some kind og honorary mention in a book of records. :thumbsup:

Mephistophilis, it is actually quite simple. When you say this build is the best due to things like character involvment, you are making a subjective statement, based upon an assumption that everyone will prefer character involvment.
But what if i don't want that? Well then this build is suddently no longer THE BEST ICONTESTABLE UBER MAX COOL BUILD OF GREATNESS -IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE! (tm)
It is THE BEST ICONTESTABLE UBER MAX COOL BUILD OF GREATNESS - IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE! (tm) based on YOUR specific standards and preferences.
The laid-back style of the fishy is boring to YOU, not to some of us, we actually enjoy it. But again you make these arrogant, definitive statements as if they were God-given, undisputable laws of nature, etched in goldplated tablets of stone and splendour.

Like Lumpor, i agree that this sounds like a great and fun build, that faith is somewhat underrated and nightfish's guide is somewhat overrated. That is, if you can afford to poof an infinity polearm regularly (i know i can't for sure, i actually like to play the game the way it's supposed to).
However, i find it is mostly a matter of a variation in gameplay more than an actualy build guide, and i don't see how it should be much faster.
You see, i'm one of those "poor" people you kinda feel like dissing aswell because they don't have endless time on their hands to gather e-wealth, and i have *absolutely* no problem dropping that first corpse with my act 2 merc and teleport.
In fact the thing that i found most strange about your build, which you claim to have tested against all other variations, is that whole act 1 merc buisness. An act 2 merc with a good ethereal runeword polearm does INSANE damage and even with my setup and in act 5 hell, if i want to drop a specific monster i just tele to it (the purpose your build it seems) and it drops before i have time to relocate the mouse cursor to a new spot on the map. I really don't see how your setup is faster than "instantly". Once that corpse is down, i amp, CE and the entire screen is dead in a heartbeat.
Right, so we can tele around fast with this build and have some character involvment. Ok, that's nice, and a fun way to play i'm sure. But it's not THE BEST ICONTESTABLE UBER MAX COOL BUILD OF GREATNESS - IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE! (tm) You have absolutely nothing to back up your arrogant and patronizing manners and that just pisses people off even further than if you actually had something really unique and complely awesome to show off.

 

[balkan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

BTW, a build that relies on extremely expensive equipment to be really effecient is not a great build IMO. It's anywhere between a bad to a good build with godly equipment. Any build can be efficient with godly equipment, but then it's no longer about the build is it?

 

[stephan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Bleh. Since when is Nightfish's guide overrated? It's the core skellie summoner build.

Even though this is the Necro forum, sometimes it's better to leave dead topics dead.

 

[balkan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Bleh. Since when is Nightfish's guide overrated? It's the core skellie summoner build.

Well, overrated may be the wrong term. What i mean is that this guide is constantly pointed to as *the* way to do it, while it is my experience - having once tried to follow Nightfish's advices to the letter - that stat progressions other than the ones advocated, as well as build variations that are cast aside as useless, are not only highly playable but actually just as fast if you aren't being rushed through the game. It's a matter of adapting your playstyle and gear more than anything else.
It is my oppinion that the specificity of the fishy guide and attitude that it is *the* most effective way to play a skelliemancer is incorrect and it seems there is a consensus among necro forum users that that's just the way it is.

 

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

"I use JSP and too many people on this site do not know how to build a proper summoner. "

I stopped reading after that.

HoS

 

[lumpor]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Yeah, I also think he shouldn't be treated as the summonancer god. After noticing the skeleton power increase, anyone could make a build focused around them. And I also think that nightfish lacks experience of rich characters, suggesting points in revive, and no points in mages etc.

I'm not saying it's a bad guide, but it's not a divine guide either.

Also, mephistofilis, what someone said before is right. Character involvement isn't always a good thing. I really love the laid-back style of the summonancer. You can't assume everyone wants character involvement. It's ok to suggest things that increase involvement for those who like involvement, but it's not ok acting as if everyone likes it

 

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Ok, I got bored...and needed a break from my new summoner that I started (Damn you Kiba) on non ladder west...and read this whole thread

Before I retired...I made a faith merc/infinity golem summoner where I was using a selection of necro wands including the shard...the only differnce was I didn't use a spirit/magefist/10 fcr rings alot but did have them in stash to use when I needed to. And gave my account to Kiba when I retired.

I typically used the trangs gloves/homu shield with a carrion ring and the other one listed in the commando guide...because I enjoyed having a pet vine back then.

While the build was fun to play when I did use the spirit/magefists because of the fcr...I found it to be not as important to reach the breakpoint when I'm summoning skeletons and using curses...while keeping a eye on rustbucket to make sure he didn't die or poof on me.

Also...I didnt see much difference from the faith merc compared to a might/infinity Waheed with a insight golem that I also had on my account...although that build was made to lag people out with maxxed mages/revives and a few pets as well.

I went with the maxxed skeletons/mastery setup with rest into golem mastery/rustbucket and points spread out to other golems for synergies with the faith merc.

While both builds was alot of fun to play...I found the use of Waheed in most areas of the game to be more useful for me. The only area Waheed really has a problem is with Diablo because of the obvious:IM...but if you remove his weapon he doesn't die from IM...but you lose the infinity bonus until the IM threat is gone and you put his weapon backk on him again.

That is only a small detail in my book to deal with...and you still have his might aura around.

I'm not gonna get into the petty garbage because of lame comments and statements your guide makes...and make some back in return or give you my diablo resume' either.

Those old-timers still here on the forums who have gamed with me like MM know how good of a Necro I am...and I have nothing to prove to anyone.

*Anarchy01 on the west side

HoS

 

[stephan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Yeah, I also think he shouldn't be treated as the summonancer god. After noticing the skeleton power increase, anyone could make a build focused around them.

He never claimed he invented the summoner class now did he? Guides of that quality are indeed a rare sight.

And I also think that nightfish lacks experience of rich characters

And that's from the guy who never entered hell and said that that experience doesn't matter that much at all 3 posts ago? Please keep your senseless smears to yourself. Nighfish is probably a richer player than you are (in more than one aspect).

 

[balkan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

And that's from the guy who never entered hell and said that that experience doesn't matter that much at all 3 posts ago?

Very true :grin:

Personally I think the good part about NF's guide is the fact that it's not focused on equipment, but works as-is. Great equipment only enhances the build.
And yes, it is a very nice guide and well written, but i have personally found quite a lot of very well written guides on this forum. Perhaps guides used to be sloppy but i think the quality is very high these days and makes it hard for me to see why everyone is so crazy about that particular guide.
This perception is probably just due to the fact that i just flew in recently, having no idea about how things used to be and having read many great and thorough guides. Guides like nightfish may indeed have worked as benchmarks for other guide writers, which is a great thing. It also pretty much makes my comment unjustified, but I just thought i'd share my oppinion on the matter anyway like an ***

 

[lumpor]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Nighfish is probably a richer player than you are (in more than one aspect).

Yes, but I don't make guides, do I?

 

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

The op claimed that "too many people on this site don't know how to make a proper summoner".

All those times I've made everything from Commando's to Zookeepers...I guess I made them all improperly. Which is why I'm making yet another one now on west nl...and had Kiba dust off my moldy equipment so I can once again return and make a proper summoner.

HoS

 

[balkan]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Yeah, and please, do it right this time will you?! Otherwise mephiztophilis has to descend from above once again and spend his precious, divine time spawning another guide for us lowlifes. We can't have that

 

[HarbingersOfSkulls]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Yeah, and please, do it right this time will you?! Otherwise mephiztophilis has to descend from above once again and spend his precious, divine time spawning another guide for us lowlifes. We can't have that

I will make sure that I do that...so far managed to solo act 1 and 2 of hell since finding a good hell game seems hard to do...so now I'm chillin' in act 3 for the moment.

Also...because I haven't decided if I want to go with a insight rustbucket and max out golem mastery or max out mages...I have done it using 13 skeletons/6 mages and gumby with Waheed using infinity.

And have 32 skill points saved atm because I haven't decided.

HoS

 

[bluewiind]

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

I ran into this guide a couple of days ago and I build this necro in SP using the editor. I started at lev 60 in hell, I didnt die once, didnt loose my golem, although I did have infinite number of Infinities available if I did. This is a great build, fast, deadly and fun, as the author advertized and I will build one on ladder east.
I didnt read all the posts here, but from what I did read I was amazed at the level if hostility you necro gurus are showing. I dont believe any of you have actually tried this build and you merely shout you indignation from your soup boxes. How dare anyone question your vast knowledge and introduce a new concept with confidence and upset the status que. It made me laugh, thanks. This is what happens to most people who have new ideas, its a part of human condition. Resistance to change, feeling threatened in ones established niche.
Kudos to the author, this is a great build.