Double Swing viability for Ubers.

Cybulski

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Jul 6, 2003
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Double Swing viability for Ubers.

Hey gang.

I'm having a hard time deciding on whether I should go DS or Frenzy for my new barb. I'm pretty confident that a DS orientated build is capable of clearing the game, but is it as effective as Frenzy when it comes to the ubers?

I'm not ready for the ubers yet but when the time comes I wouldn't want to trash (my eventual) double swinger and start over. Is there maybe a thread comparing Frenzy and DS? If so, please direct me.
 
You Could do both, Use frenzy for the IAS and double swing does mega fast, but you dont get the damage bonus from frenzy which > the bonus from double swing, so I would use frenzy then double swing for when you have had your mana drained
 
Just compare the numbers here.

At slvl 20 Double Swing increases AR by 110%, but gives no damage boost.
At slvl 20 Frenzy increases AR by 230% and damage by 185%.

I always have Frenzy on right button (switching for BO, Shout and others), and Double Swing on left button.
 
Hmm. So essentially Double Swing hits faster, but not as hard as frenzy. I wonder what the damage per second difference is.
 
Frenzy needs more IAS to reach good bp i think though, DS feels faster and more effective, i don't know why because if i look at the numbers Frenzy should be way better, also max the synergy to DS, not DS itself (unless you have bad ar ofcourse)
A fully synargized Frenzy is probably better, but i find DS to be better (with maxed synergy) then Maxed Frenzy with one maxed synergy.
I don't know, DS leaves way more room for customization.
(max BO, max DS synergy, max weapon mastery, that leaves a lot of points)
 
Hmm. So essentially Double Swing hits faster, but not as hard as frenzy. I wonder what the damage per second difference is.

I'm copying and pasting this information from a post I made elsewhere, so forgive me if it's a touch disjointed.

Here's a very, very rudimentary comparison involving Berserker Axes with 20% IAS. I'm also operating under the assumption that it takes 3 hits to fully charge a Frenzy (personally, I believe it takes more than that, probably 5 hits, but by using the 3-hit value I can give a very conservative comparison biased in Frenzy's favor). This means the first hit will occur with 0% EIAS, the second will occur with 14% EIAS, the third will occur with 28% EIAS, and the fourth (and all subsequent) will occur with 43% EIAS.

Zerker with 20% IAS and Double Swing = 6.5 fpa
Zerker with 20% IAS and 0% EIAS = 12.5 fpa
Zerker with 20% IAS and 14% EIAS = 10.5 fpa
Zerker with 20% IAS and 28% EIAS = 9 fpa
Zerker with 20% IAS and 43% EIAS = 8 fpa

Time for 5 hits with Frenzy = 48 frames. During that time you can launch SEVEN double swings (and be 40% of the way through the 8th). For every subsequent hit, Double Swing will fire 23% faster than Frenzy, (which should correspond to multiplying DS's final damage by 23% compared to Frenzy's).

Now, same comparison, except using Champion Swords and 40% IAS

Double Swing = 5.5 fpa
First Hit Frenzy = 8 fpa
Second Hit Frenzy = 7 fpa
Third Hit Frenzy = 6.5 fpa
Fourth+ Hit Frenzy = 6 fpa

Time for 5 hits with Frenzy = 33.5 frames. During that time you can launch six double swings and be 10% of the way through the seventh. For every subsequent hit, Double Swing will fire 9% faster than Frenzy (which should correspond to multiplying DS's final damage by 9% compared to Frenzy's).

Taking these figures into account in the 40-point Frenzy/DS comparison, Double Swing will actually leave Frenzy's damage in the dust. And remember, too, these numbers were FRENZY FRIENDLY, operating under the assumption that Frenzy is fully charged in 3 hits (which I'm almost certain isn't true). In reality, Double Swing's damage is a lot closer to Frenzy's with 60 spent points than most people would believe (especially if you factor in the greater chance to hit, and even more especially if you are having trouble keeping Frenzy charged- say, you're playing in a group and don't want to race ahead), and the only reason Frenzy feels like it's killing so much faster is because you spend a lower percentage of your time running between monster packs.

Basically, the d/s difference is going to be negligible. It might favor Frenzy slightly, it might favor DS slightly, it's going to depend on your setup... but either way, the difference isn't going to be very big.



 
It seems that my feelings towards DS vs Frenzy have been proven true, ty SSoG for the info.
It is indeed the frw from Frenzy that gives the impression of being much faster at killing.
 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

SSoG:
I thought DS would be better than Frenzy until I picked up a +1 skill levels amulet and a +2 combat skills helm. With DS, that doesn't boost my damage at all. But with Frenzy, I get a 30% boost. Battle Command gives it another 10% boost over DS. Doesn't that throws the damage per second calculations out the window?
BTW, I put 9 points in DS to get mana free swinging in case I run out. The 9 points aren't wasted since they convert into a 72% increase in Frenzy damage.
 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

His charge-up numbers are very much in favor of Frenzy (the number of hits required to fully charge is actually equal to the skill level) and the 30% would only be on top of what you already have.
 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

What do you mean "equal to the skill level?" A level 20 Frenzy will take 20 hits to get to full speed?
 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

What do you mean "equal to the skill level?" A level 20 Frenzy will take 20 hits to get to full speed?
Essentially yes.

Since attack speed is stair-stepped you might reach the final attack speed a few hits before, but it's a lot more than 3 hits.



 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

Oh. It seems like DS will actually give me more damage per second (unless I get super fast equipment), but frenzy cuts the travel time between packs of monsters. Is that accurate?
 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

Here are the two builds I put together on paper:
Frenzy:
1 Bash
20 Sword Mastery
1 Howl
16 Shout
20 Double Swing
1 Double Throw
1 Stun
1 Iron Skin
1 Concentrate
20 Battle Orders
20 Frenzy
6 Natural Resistance
1 Battle Command
1 Berserk

Double Swing:
20 Bash
20 Axe Mastery
1 Howl
20 Shout
9 Double Swing
1 Stun
1 Increased Stamina
8 Iron Skin
1 Concentrate
20 Battle Orders
1 Increased Speed
6 Natural Resistance
1 Battle Command
1 Berserk

Comparing the two, Frenzy does 34% more physical damage and has an attack rating 53% higher. But its defense is 22% lower.

If I have +10 to skill levels from items, the Frenzy barb does 41% more physical damage, 43% higher attack rating, but 16% lower defense.

But with non-physical damage (cold, fire, lightning), the gap between frenzy damage and DS damage is smaller. Also, the DS barb hits more frequently, so the damage per second is much closer if not in favor of DS. Another thing in favor of DS is no need for mana.

I think I'm going to go with Double Swing.

Comments?
 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

Another factor: Frenzy synchs with Berzerk: 1% Magic Damage per level while Frenzying.

Also, you can frenzy first, then double swing.
 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

BTW, I went with axes so I don't have to put any points into dexterity and can save them for vitality (which gets boosted even more by BO). The one thing I don't like about axes though are the low durability. Just 24, 26, or 28 for one handed axes. What a pain that will be when I get to hell. The two handed swords (used in 1 hand) have about twice the durability, but I didn't want to waste the points in dexterity. Hopefully I'll find an auto-repair axe, extra-durable axe, or socket a Zod rune/runeword.
 
Re: Double Swing viability for Ubers.

I can't use those since I'm not playing ladder. Maybe next time I will.
 
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