Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Wizdomm said:
Having to swap out one piece of gear (AOKL) when I first raise my army is not a big deal. It's not like AOKL really takes up alot of space in your inventory/stash. And the 3 skill loss while carrying beast AFTER the skel army is raised is no big deal. 3 less skills to curses and CE. Whoopty doo. All those skills already would have insane range regardless.
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then this build isnt for you. This play is extremely fast and running my own baals as fast as bot dins is no sweat. I run to nihilitaks temple, summon and bo, then tele baal and I have an advantage over bots when I get there cuz I can Kill faster. THis is my ladder climber. My ESCL is 98 this ladder (Third highest totally legit character-the res all use leechbots). and my HCL is 90 Atm.

All i ask is you keep your comments to yourself unless you try it. You (not you particular, but everyone) throws out these hypothetical arguments because you don't like change or you all are madly in love with the guy who wrote the 'Fishy" guide.

Try it. then if you find flaws come back and discuss. I've worked out every possible angle I could come up with and I've played this game since midnight on the night it hit the shelf. This is my culmination for necros and it serves your interest to try it (even if its on hero editor so you all dont lose your precious high runes in infinity).


 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

mephistophilis said:
All i ask is you keep your comments to yourself unless you try it. You (not you particular, but everyone) throws out these hypothetical arguments because you don't like change or you all are madly in love with the guy who wrote the 'Fishy" guide.
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Actually, I don't think you have read his guide. If you don't know already, he is an SP player, and started the basic ideas and strats of a summoner in 1.10. He is not a proponent of the beast/infinity/etc. (I mean, you would never have those stuff in SP, would you) By the way, a faith setup has been debated in this forum as well, as far as I remember.



 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

AnimeCraze said:
Actually, I don't think you have read his guide. If you don't know already, he is an SP player, and started the basic ideas and strats of a summoner in 1.10. He is not a proponent of the beast/infinity/etc. (I mean, you would never have those stuff in SP, would you) By the way, a faith setup has been debated in this forum as well, as far as I remember.
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Nope I didn't. I did all my own work. Page one though people are saying "This is a FISHY with a faith" so I went and looked briefly at his guide but it was wayyyyy too long for me. Couldn't sit through it.


 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

mephistophilis said:
Nope I didn't. I did all my own work. Page one though people are saying "This is a FISHY with a faith" so I went and looked briefly at his guide but it was wayyyyy too long for me. Couldn't sit through it.
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And yet you ask all of us to take time to read and try out your guide. :shocked:



 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

I actually have 1 more question:
If you are stressing so much on faster hit recovery, how about block rate? Even a pure vit build block (my sorc has something like 20% or so), unless you are not using a shield. The slow block rate can kill you since you can't tele. Because of this, I can't actually see the point of getting massive amount of faster hit recovery.

I had a vita sorc that was killed by block lock before, so...... It's not theoretical.
 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Wizdomm said:
And yet you ask all of us to take time to read and try out your guide. :shocked:
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Im asking you to try it BEFORE you criticize.

I dont give a **** if you try it or even read it.

You just don't have the standing to criticize and dismiss it without trying.

I'm not criticizing his, Im saying its not his style even though people are saying it is with slight variation. And obviously I read the parts that people compared it to and its not very similar.

AnimeCraze said:
I actually have 1 more question:
If you are stressing so much on faster hit recovery, how about block rate? Even a pure vit build block, unless you are not using a shield. The slow block rate can kill you since you can't tele.
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I have a 9% chance to block. Blocking for me is almost a joke. There's no point in worrying about faster block rate because I rarely block in the first place. Also, block rate is cut to 1/3 when you are moving. So if I get hit while walking around, I have the same chance to block as one of my skeletons with the shields.


 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Alright so I just read through the 'Fishy'

That build is a solid, safe character.

My proposed build is fast. He states it takes a long time to even hit 92. Now with ubering 92 takes 4 hours so a new goal in 1.11 is to hit 95 in a week. Well I will tell you this model does that in no time just solo baaling.

That is a great guide for a slow playing necro. This is a much different style and I really urge you to try it out in hero editor.
 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

lol this guy got exactly the responses I thought it would be based on the OP's opening statements.

My thoughts:
Although there is a lot of bashing and comparisons to the fishymancer...
this guide does suggest some unique differences (infinity golem, A1 merc with faith, an alternative weapon with a jewel keeping prebuff in mind, a spirit shield, no block, a focus on FHR, ect).

I mean how many different ways can you build a summoner that is still effective?
He changed it to make it unique and based on a different style of gameplay (speed)...accusing it of being a replicate of the fishy is pointless, of course it's going to be similar, skill distribution is essentially the same for this build regardless of what summon necro variant it is.

So really, I don't think it's alike the fishy in many regards, emphasizing different gear and style of gameplay.

I think it's an interesting idea overall.

But to the OP, your idea that your guide is perfect is arrogant...all great guides encourage a great deal of speculation and discussion. This is a more respectful community, but I don't blame people for attacking you because you provoked it. Clearly, if your ideas are different, then people will ask questions and debate why you think one option is better than the other. I don't think your build is perfect or amazing, I think it's unique, which is good.

But I mean c'mon guys, the OP is a passionate player who is putting a new spin on an old idea...although not all of us want to make an IG infinity knowing it could disappear, and I have problems with the formatting of this guide, I recognize his D2 passion. We need more of that around here.
 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

Actually, fishy is a term that is abused nowadays to mean all summoners. The idea of faith merc itself is somewhat interesting, (as I do it with a chaos zon too, also because of IM) but claiming it to be the best is simply asking for it (it isn't, since if it is not the best for zons, it's probably not the best for necros, as skeletons have less ED, and that there's a weapon damage difference between WF and faith). Anyways, if it is perfect, then defend it with rigor, facts, and numbers, like how one would defend a thesis or something.
 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

mephistophilis said:
Lets repeat this- Yes there is a delay/cap Whatever you want to call it. But the damage from reaching higher frames is given to you. your skeletons do more damage from level 15 fanat. And not just because of the 6 levels of extra % damage, but also because you hit a (theoretical) higher break point!
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Stop hammering on this. The difference is 500 damage per second at level 40 RS/SM devided over all your skeletons. You cannot possibly argue that this is one of your main selling points.



 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

stephan said:
Stop hammering on this. The difference is 500 damage per second at level 40 RS/SM devided over all your skeletons. You cannot possibly argue that this is one of your main selling points.
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Actually, it's more than that, according to the skill calc anyways. 11283-9790=1493. Though, lvl 20 might + lvl 9 fanat gives 14772 (even just lvl 20 might gives 11211, though w/o any AR bonus).



 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

AnimeCraze said:
Actually, it's more than that, according to the skill calc anyways. 11283-9790=1493. Though, lvl 20 might + lvl 9 fanat gives 14772 (even just lvl 20 might gives 11211, though w/o any AR bonus).
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My numbers included a level 18 might for the non-Fana setup.

Code: 
level 18 might (level 87 merc), level 40 RS/RM = 10830 DPS
level 15 fana, level 40 RS/RM = 11284 DPS.



 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

I just have to make some comments on this. Your main idea is to get rid of the act 2 merc that tends to kill himself under the influence on IM. A Faith merc from a1 will handle this, I agree, but it will just create different problems. Insight IG players have accepted the fact, that they have to keep Insights on stash, as your golem sometimes disappears for no specific reason. Loosing 4 crap runes is no big deal, loosing two Ber, Ist and Mal is something that even richer players will want to avoid.

A few things however will not give your Summoner build a lot of fans:
- Your arrogant attitude. Your build is different not necessarily better and telling people that they have no clue as one of your first actions here, will not net you fans.

- The forum with the fg doesn´t have the best reputition here aswell, so giving indication about costs in fg is a bad idea. Apart from that, prizes vary from realm to realm.

- Soj or BK3 as poor mans gear? Get real, those cost more than the 10% rings you mention as middle class gear and sometimes more than the rich mans variant.
 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

I think you guys nailed it, the wording of the guide has put everyone on the offensive.

Versatility wise it appears to be a good build. I think what everyone is disputing is the uberness. The guides item selection gives less aura benefit/damage than what we are all used to using, as Stephan proved with the pet calculations. The guides item selection leaves you with lower +skills so minions do less base damage, and the CE radius is less than what we are used to. The act 1 merc does much less damage, has less CB, and what CB the act 1 merc does have is nerfed by being a ranged attack. So with the exception of IM areas, this build is weaker than what we currently use.

I have pondered on this for a couple of days now and I had an epiphany (I am sure that epiphany is spelled wrong).

It is clear through calculations and experience, damage wise, this guide is weaker than what we are used to, but does it really matter? Example; I stopped using beast a while back for HoTo because I found in low player count games (less than 5) beast didn't help because I was actually "too uber", so over uber in fact, that not prebuffing with AOKL and getting rid of beast had no effect in killing speed in games less than 5 players, it does help alot in 8 player games and with ubers though.

So in theory if every monster has 5k life and I am doing 10k damage, I can make some changes that make my life easier, but now I only do 6k damage, I am still doing so much "over uber" damage that the change will not be noticed because I am still doing over the total damage needed for a one hit kill.

So maybe instead of refering to his character as "Most Uber", which we have proven that it is not, it should be "Uber Enough, and in the right ways". I believe that in a perfect world and not in 8 player games this character may actually be able to out pace our Fishy's that we are used to. The main problem with this is that it is completely item dependant, most fishy's can still "own" with lesser gear, this guide's fishy will not. Also, without the aid of the OP's hero editor no one will ever make an Infinity golem, it is just too expensive, I am fairly E-wealthy and it is still too rich for my blood. Without the infinity golem the build is severly nerfed.

So in conclusion, I believe the OP's character as is, while not "Most Uber", is more than uber enough to achieve everything that we are achieving and maybe a little more. However, unlike the fishy's that we are used to, which are very item flexable, this build loses effectiveness quickly with item substitutions. Also, as mentioned, the infinity golem is not really a useable skill, which further nerf's the build. But if you are playing SP, and have the hero editor (which no one should use), or are so rich infinity's grow on trees, he may have created the the most versatile build yet.
 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

stephan said:
Read more closely. There is not a cap, there is a 15 frame *delay*.

Bring realistic numbers from the pet calc and show us the big difference. Or, shall I do it? Ok:

level 18 might (level 87 merc), level 40 RS/RM = 10830 DPS
level 15 fana, level 40 RS/RM = 11284 DPS.

Well wooptiewoo, that's worth losing an Infinity Golem for.

Your 'assessment' of an act 2 merc's survivability is also completely off IMHO.
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Did you address the amount of times you will hit more due to the drop in defense? Also if you play with mages then the -res from conviction is godly for you. And corpse explosion iirc is half fire damage. :'D And that math doesn't include the possibility of using a beast on your character to gain fanaticism, with the might merc. seeing as you dont need to with the faith merc.

I don't see any problem with speed and those statements about saying if a character is slow no one likes/will play it is very bold. Summon necros well played can make it through hell without gear and that alone gives me reason to believe they are popular to some people. And you really think that will be fast? Either way i don't have any problem with speed on mine and it has no problem with any areas of the game including sanctuary and what not (:

I like banana.


 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

ISawYouTry said:
Did you address the amount of times you will hit more due to the drop in defense? Also if you play with mages then the -res from conviction is godly for you.
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Nothing prevents you from putting an infinity on the act 2 merc when the other option is making an IG out of it. The difference in CtH will be marginal.



 
Re: Necro Summoner Guide (Incontestable Greatness)

But you're closing the option out of the iron golem from the act 2 merc side as well as I mostly play nonladder and I do a lot of trist runs so having the golem die isn't fun. (: I use medi golem / pride golems. Its da bomb.
 
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