Suggestions Needed! Switching from WWS to Windforce

[maiku]

If her Amazon already has high pierce, like in the range of 70-80%, then you could very well stick to the Nosferatu's Coil. Pierce is excellent for bowazons, but in my mind it's most critical for Frostmaidens or Frozen Arrow and Lightning Fury builds, where much or most of the power comes from special effects like cold damage explosions or extra bolts released with more piercings. In these cases, 85%+ pierce is excellent and 100% should be the ideal.

Nosferatu's Coil also has 10% slow on it, and combined with the knockback from Windforce, should keep her bowazon very safe. Slow and knockback offer extra crowd control, and that could be worth a slight loss in power that would be gained from adding Razortail. With a WF, she should not be lacking power. You could also put a +15 max damage jewel or two in a unique or socketed armor to make up for potentially lost damage.

 

[Smackin]

You could use the following for some nice killing speed and survivalbility(SP?):
Mav's helm(30 ias)
Atmas Scarab(Amp+AR)(or Highlords, I personally would go for highlords)(20ias)
Treachery(res+45 ias)
Nos Belt(slow, +str, 10 ias)
LoH(%350 to demon, res, 20 as)
Ravenfrost(aim for high AR)
Another ravenfrost or ring of ur choice
Gores(DS, OW, CB=GG)
WF(20ias)

With the above setup, u'll have good fire, cold, and poison res, huge dmg vs boss, Decent LL and ML to keep u shooting. If u go for Atmas, u'll have a bigger potential dmg, but less stable dmg, and u can hit 9/2 without using any of the sockets. However, If u go highlords with 20 ias and stick a 15 ias jewel in the Mavs helm, U'll hit the next BP, 8/2 strafing(Speed=Dmg=Faster killing=more leech), and u'll still have the socket in WF to use. Likewise u can shael and WF and use Atmas and still have the 8/2 BP. U'll get more AR and potential dmg with atmas, while u get more suvivalbility and stable dmg with highlords.

 

[MaStAViC]

Thanks for replying and offering such a complete setup build suggestion, Smackin. Is a 8/2 Strafe much faster than a 9/2 Strafe? If not, I was thinking of just aiming for the 9/2 breakpoint because I would need another 37%IAS to reach the next frame.

These are the items that I am thinking about now (keeping in mind your recommendation of a Highlord's Amulet:
Windforce (20%IAS; socketed with a SHAEL rune = 40%IAS)
Andarial's Visage (20%IAS; socketed with an IAS jewel = 35%IAS)
Highlord's Amulet (20%IAS)
Laying of Hands (20%IAS)
Nosterafu's Coil Belt (10%IAS)
War Travelers/Gore Riders (may be switching to Gore Riders as per your recommendation)
Raven Frost Rings (two of them; 8% mana leech from the Windforce should be enough)
Lionheart Runeword Armor

Other than the IAS, the Treachery armor doesn't look very useful to me (I have never used a Treachery armor before, so please enligten me on its usefulness if possible), so I would much rather get IAS from other items and use Lionheart until I could get a better runeword armor (just for reference; what would the ultimate armor be?).

Any thoughts on this setup? I would have 125%IAS, which would hit the 9/2breakpoint for Strafe.

Thank you,
Victor Ly
Volnteer Office, SHCS

 

[AnimeCraze]

8/2 and 9/2 is almost the same as far as strafing is concerned.

 

[maiku]

Vic, IIRC, level 15 Fade of Treachery adds +60 to all resists and 15% physical damage reduction. It also lasts for a while. I also like the Venom, because that does about 300 instant damage per hit right there. With very fast Strafe, you can repeatedly envenom one monster or several monsters and shave off their hps very quickly. While it's small damage in hell, every bit adds up at such a rapid rate of fire. However, if using Treachery, do not use poison charms with it, because it will shorten their damage duration to 0.4 seconds, the time in which the poison of Venom works. I find all the stats of Treachery useful for bowazons and some melee classes when compared with its price.

If you want, catch me online sometime and I'll get my Strafer to show you her Dusk Treachery.

 

[NASE]

the ultimate armour is fort, or perhaps coh if you need more defensive aspects. Enigma perhaps if you need mf, though there are better armours. Certainly fort as the offweapon ed will be much lower then with faith users, and even they use fort.

Threachery is great, aswell defensive as offensive, however there are much better armours, though not for the price.

Lets see:
45 ias, you know what ias is right?
20% fhr, though not that usefull, it can never hurt. certainly not if you have low life and will get in hit recovery often.
slvl 15 venom. Offers up too 300 instand poisons damage. This is very nice though consider this. You can't no longer use poison damage to cancel out monsters regereration, and with windforce, offweapon ed can get you to 300 extra damage fast.
slvl 15 fade. Great, gives up to 60 res and 15% damage reduction. The problem is that this is a ctc on hit with little chance. I found that it doesn't trigger often so you can count this in.
cold res. Res can't ever hurt right?

 

[Barrynor]

I'll indulge you in some pierce calculations, and why Razortail adds a lot more damage for any build, not just javazons and ice maidens.

80% Pierce

Chance to pierce target nr 1: 0.8 = 80%
Chance to pierce target nr 2: 0.8*0.8 = 0.64 = 64%
Chance to pierce target nr 3: 0.8*0.8*0.8=0.512 = 51%
Chance to pierce target nr 4 0.8(4) = 0.4 = 40%
chance to pierce target nr 5 0.8 (5) = 0.32 = 32%

Whilst attaining 95% pierce the numbers are as follows:
0.95(1) 0.95
0.95(2) 0.9
0.95(3) 0.86
0.95(4) 0.81
0.95(5) 0.77

I'm sure you can do the math yourself, and every hit has a 5% chance to let off AMP damage as well.

Just a thought though

 

[MaStAViC]

Hey Vic,

Dunno how much IAS you need, but consider switching the Coil for Raizortail. 33% added pierce will greatly enhance your damage output. It would almost be worth it to add a 60% IAS armor with some good 2nd mods to the mix if you want speed. However, Raizortail combined with Atma's Scarab and a decent rate (9/3 is manageble here I think) will cause massive damage against any and every target as with Atma and a little patience even the physical immumes will die. And you'd be able to keep the Lionheart which is a very, very nice runeword and gets you an A for style.

Cheerio,

//Barry

I'll indulge you in some pierce calculations, and why Razortail adds a lot more damage for any build, not just javazons and ice maidens.

80% Pierce

Chance to pierce target nr 1: 0.8 = 80%
Chance to pierce target nr 2: 0.8*0.8 = 0.64 = 64%
Chance to pierce target nr 3: 0.8*0.8*0.8=0.512 = 51%
Chance to pierce target nr 4 0.8(4) = 0.4 = 40%
chance to pierce target nr 5 0.8 (5) = 0.32 = 32%

Whilst attaining 95% pierce the numbers are as follows:
0.95(1) 0.95
0.95(2) 0.9
0.95(3) 0.86
0.95(4) 0.81
0.95(5) 0.77

I'm sure you can do the math yourself, and every hit has a 5% chance to let off AMP damage as well.

Just a thought though

Thanks for replying, Barry. I hope you've been well =)

Her Amazon actually has 80% Pierce from the skill (base) at the moment because it was originally a WWS Amazon and I planned for her to use Nosterafu's Coil, so pierce/Razortail won't be a problem.

I do have a question though. What do you mean by "every hit has a 5% chance to let off AMP damage as well?" You mean with Atma's Scarab on instead of Highlord's Amulet, right?

Vic, IIRC, level 15 Fade of Treachery adds +60 to all resists and 15% physical damage reduction. It also lasts for a while. I also like the Venom, because that does about 300 instant damage per hit right there. With very fast Strafe, you can repeatedly envenom one monster or several monsters and shave off their hps very quickly. While it's small damage in hell, every bit adds up at such a rapid rate of fire. However, if using Treachery, do not use poison charms with it, because it will shorten their damage duration to 0.4 seconds, the time in which the poison of Venom works. I find all the stats of Treachery useful for bowazons and some melee classes when compared with its price.

If you want, catch me online sometime and I'll get my Strafer to show you her Dusk Treachery.

Thanks for the additional information about Treachery. It sounds like a very nice armor, and I actually didn't know how great Fade was until you told me and I checked Arreat Summit; however, "5% Chance To Cast Level 15 Fade When Struck" does not sound very good. When that percentage, her Amazon would have to be struck 20 times in order to cast the skill, and her Amazon was built to not take hits (aren't most bow Amazons built this way?). Her Amazon, if struck more than a few times, would most likely die.

8/2 and 9/2 is almost the same as far as strafing is concerned.

AnimeCraze and NASE, thanks for the reply. I will consider both your input.

Thanks,
Victor Ly
*mastavic

 

[Barrynor]

Heya Vic,

I've been well, though I've stopped playing DII about a year and a half ago. Been busy with other things since

At any rate, first about that Treachery and the 5% chance to set off fade... no, not entirely. You see, the actual mechanics is much like this: Your chance of Fade going off after say 10 hits is not 10*5%, but rather 1 - (chance Fade not going) which is actually 1 - 0.95(10) = 0.4. It will slowly drop to 0, but it will never quite reach 0. The same goes for Atma's amulet (which was indeed what I was talking about).. the more times you roll, the better the chance you trigger it to go off, but your chance will not be 100% after 20 attempts. You cannot simply add the chances together but rather must multiply them. I know, statistics are silly like that

Pierce is capped at 95%, which is the maximum attainable. In ye olden (1.09) days people went for a pierce investment of 66% and let Raizortail do the rest, whilst using 60% IAS armor to get to a 7 or 8 fps guided and 9/2 Strafe. Cats Eye was indeed a popular choice, as was Mavina's helmet. With those two you'd already be at 110%. I'd suggest Atma's though because with a little patience you'd be able to shoot down any and everything in the game. Ideally you combine another source of Crushing Blow and Deadly Strike with Atma's/ You could for example wear Goreriders, so that you have a little of all. If you do manage to AMP a target and then trigger a CB on a DS or CS roll, it'll cause a LOT of pain. Also, remember to have a single frost damage charm in your inventory, as well as a fire damage charm... frost and a possible hit recovery are good things

 

[HeroXVII]

Use Treachery or duress if you can't afford a Fortitude. War Travellers don't really fit a bowazon unless you're MFing so use Eth Treks, the universal boots. Windforce has the max possible damage for a bow.

Identified Name: Windforce
Unid Name: Hydra Bow
Two-Hand Damage: 35 To (241-547) (138-291 Avg)
Required Level: 73
Required Strength: 134
Required Dexterity: 167
Base Weapon Speed: [10]
+250% Enhanced Damage
+ (3.125 Per Character Level) 3-309 To Maximum Damage (Based On Character Level)
20% Increased Attack Speed
6-8% Mana Stolen Per Hit (varies)
Heal Stamina Plus 30%
+10 To Strength
+5 To Dexterity
Knockback

The only problem with Windforce is no Ignore Target Defense but the Knockback compiled with Strafe makes up for it, even better if you got a couple points into Pierce. WWS is probably second to Windforce because it has two sockets for IAS and also has the nice DS% on it.

Treachery... and Duress

Duress
3 Socket Body Armor
Shael + Um + Thul

+40% Faster Hit Recovery
+10-20% Enhanced Damage (varies)
Adds 37-133 Cold Damage 2 sec. Duration (Normal)
15% Chance of Crushing Blow
33% Chance of Open Wounds
+150-200% Enhanced Defense (varies)
-20% Slower Stamina Drain
Cold Resist +45%
Lightning Resist +15%
Fire Resist +15%
Poison Resist +15%

Duress gives a nice bit of resistances, better than Treachery but lacks the IAS. The Crushing Blow and Open Wounds help a great deal, though.

Treacher (Assassin)
3 Socket Body Armor
Shael + Thul + Lem

5% Chance To Cast Level 15 Fade When Struck
25% Chance To Cast level 15 Venom On Striking
+2 To Assassin Skills
+45% Increased Attack Speed
+20% Faster Hit Recovery
Cold Resist +30%
50% Extra Gold From Monsters

Well, Treachery here gives a nice 45% IAS and 20% FHR. It also gives 30% Cold resistance but loses versus the Duress. The 25% to cast Lv15 Venom which can help with crowd control using Strafe. Level 15 Venom adds 305- 325 Poison damage over 0.4 seconds. Part of the resistance is made up for with the 5% chance to cast Lv15 Fade which increases resistances and reduced cursed time.

 

[NASE]

@ HeroXVII: Why would war trav be a bad boot for amazons? They add damage, this is good, very good if you have high dex build and other off-weapon ed.

and about duress crushing blow is not some thing most bowazons search for. It is lowered to 1/10 of the opponents life. And open wounds isn't either, it still is very good to have. Though it doesn't to that much damage and monsters regeneration can be stopped with poison just a good, if you don't use treachery this is.
Isn't duress a very defensive armour. Something you don't really need on a good bowazon, ceratinly not with some slow, good tank and knockback.

@Barrynor: why a fire small charm, is there something I don't know?

 

[Barrynor]

Mmm, a tendency to trigger hit recovery on monsters, IIRC. Mind you, that IIRC is indeed a Recall, as its been a year and a half

Well, CB takes only 10% right? Amped monsters take double, so that's 20%, well worth it, and Deadly strike might trigger again at that point causing a 40% hit. Rare, but possible. There are a few builds which abuse this principle very well. I ran an amazone through hell with nothing but a Kuko and Goblin Toe, to be honest, and it worked quite well. Took some time to kill stuff, but it all died eventually.

 

[PhatTrumpet]

The fire damage charm triggering hit recovery was a myth AFAIK. If it did work at one time it definitely doesn't work now.

Regarding the second part, I don't think Amp affects Crushing Blow. CB is a direct reduction of a target's hitpoints rather than traditional physical damage. Also, again just working from memory here, CB damage can be reduced by positive physical resistance but it cannot be enhanced by negative physical resistance or other effects.

I do, however, know for a fact that Deadly and Critical Strike have no affect on Crushing Blow.

 

[HeroXVII]

@ HeroXVII: Why would war trav be a bad boot for amazons? They add damage, this is good, very good if you have high dex build and other off-weapon ed.

and about duress crushing blow is not some thing most bowazons search for. It is lowered to 1/10 of the opponents life. And open wounds isn't either, it still is very good to have. Though it doesn't to that much damage and monsters regeneration can be stopped with poison just a good, if you don't use treachery this is.
Isn't duress a very defensive armour. Something you don't really need on a good bowazon, ceratinly not with some slow, good tank and knockback.

@Barrynor: why a fire small charm, is there something I don't know?

Travs are usually for MFing, and I meant Shadowdancers and not Treks. don't know how I got those two confused. Shadowdancers add 25-30 DEX and 30 FHR.

 

[MaStAViC]

Travs are usually for MFing, and I meant Shadowdancers and not Treks. don't know how I got those two confused. Shadowdancers add 25-30 DEX and 30 FHR.

The problem with Shadow Dancer Myrmidon Greaves is that, even with its Requirements -20% mod, it requires 167 strength to use.

 

[Barrynor]

Ah, thank you Phat. Mmy meory is a little vague sometimes... I know fire charms used to trigger FHR

 

[maiku]

The problem with Shadow Dancer Myrmidon Greaves is that, even with its Requirements -20% mod, it requires 167 strength to use.

167 strength isn't worth it. Stick with the Travs, IMO.

 

[MaStAViC]

167 strength isn't worth it. Stick with the Travs, IMO.

Shadow Dancer would not be an option. Would Gore Riders be a better choice than War Travelers though? Thanks.

 

[Smackin]

Gores beats travs anyday unless ur mfing.

 

[NASE]

Not always, gores five crushing blow - rarely sought after - openwounds - perhaps the most usefull mod though again, not needed - and deadly strike, again since you have high cs, this i not that usefull. On wws, You can always use high lords to get the last bit of deadly strike.
travs gives you straith damage, multipliable with you dex, offweapon ed, ed comming from deadly strike. On top of that it gives mf, and some stats, can't hurt anyway.