Classic Trading Economy & Market

[DeusX]

Classic Trading Economy & Market

I'd like to hear your _opinions_ on the current D2 Classic economy, v1.11 2007 edition. Now while I understand this differs a bit from server to server, I'm only looking for a very centrist reference... it does not have to be spot on/fit-all.

Also, let me preempt here and state that this is not a thread about dupes or hacking or anything of that damn nature - other posts/posters who tried asking questions like this seemed to get slapped down pretty hard. I am a newer player attempting to figure out a brand new world of sorts and I need a bit of a Rosetta Stone here to help me trade fairly.

Real World Economy example: $1 dollar = 4 quarters, 10 dimes, 100 pennies, etc.

D2 Classic Economy -- Please help me fill in the blanks, assuming that an SOJ is the current economic standard:

1 SOJ = (?) PSkulls = (?) PDiamond/Topaz = (?) Pgems
1 SOJ = (?) xTime Spent Rushing or LVLing another character

Also, just so I can get an idea of what some "common items" go for - I'm listing the things I've seen traded/requested the most - what do you believe to be the approximate SOJ value of the following items? Feel free to use fractions or switch to Pgem value --->

- Gull
- Spectral Shard
- Bonesnap
- Sigon's (Armor only)
- Sigon's (Full Set)
- Angelics (Full Set)
- Nagelring
- Manald Heal
- Nokozan Relic
- Twitchthroe
- Silks of the Victor
- Uwe's Lament

Thanks, and please, keep the flames in the fireplace. D/X.

 

[goomba1]

a) no amount of gems, pskulls, or gulls would ever get me to relinquish a soj, whether I was holding a duped one, or not. similarly I would not give a soj for any of those unique/set collections. however, when the act5 crack went rampant in the first day or so, i did see folks offering 1 soj (obviously duped) for 3 gskins as an example.

b) I have rushed people from norm through hell act 4 for as little as free, to as much as having been given 2 sojs (rushed, and then chanted/levelled multiple chars)

c) I don't believe we are allowed to talk about real world conversion of dollars to in game items. google for other locals that do so.

d) generally speaking
gull = silk = gskin = pward = ptarn = hotspurs = blinkbat = +1 priz ammy with other mod such as stacked rez, or life, or stats. some of those vary upwards, or downwards at various times, and to various people.

e) anyone that pays anything for full sigon needs their head examined.

f) I have given away more sets of angellic's than I care to think about, and the last armor I had found, I gave away for 1 each. p eme, p amy, p ruby, p saphy.

g) a perf bsnap, or perf steeldriver is probably worth 1-2 gulls at most.

h) manalds, and nagelrings can lick the dog crap off of my lawn, I hate those rings with a passion.

i) nobody I know has ever traded anything of value for a nozokan, but they are somewhat useful for levelling new chars

j) umes, and/or gravenspine haven't been worth anything to my knowledge for the past couple of seasons.

k) shard has some value, but for me at least they're hard to value if for no other reason that I have a knack of finding them when I already have 3 on my mf-er characters, and 47 of them muled...

l) all of the above comments are based on east, softcore and my experiences over the past 4 years on ladder/non-ladder

 

[DeusX]

Actually, thank you for that; I need to post a few amendments to my original topic:

#1) I acknowledge that no one in their right mind would ever accept any amount of PGems for an SOJ. However, I still need to figure out an index of sorts. If someone says, for example, a Gull is worth 1/2 a SOJ, that doesn't mean you'd give someone 1 SOJ for 2 Gulls. Therefore, if we determine that 1 SOJ is worth 20 PSkulls.... etc.

So, with that stated, I have a new question/equation:

1 SOJ = (X) Gulls = (X) PGems

Please complete this equation (what is "X"?) to the best of your ability. I think if this is the key, right here... and from there we can all argue about whether gull = gskin, etc.

#2) I have both received, and given away, many of the items on that list, including Sigons. It still has to have a value of sorts. Again, that doesn't mean that's what you should pay for it. Sigons is NOT the cheapest item on that list by a long shot, even though it may be the most "gifted" (as in given to other players as freebies).

Thx - D/X.

 

[Souther]

Your equation is ambiguous.

A player offered me 8 gulls with silk and gskin and i still declind to the offer. I rather keep my SOJs.

 

[DeusX]

The equation is fine. Everything on this planet has to have a general value. Example.

$1 Million US dollars = (X) Amt. of Cocaine = 1 Honus Wagner Baseball Card

Obviously, there are some who would never want the drugs (which is a volatile -and- consumable product) or even the collectors item (which will MAKE you money if you hang onto it and is already worth more than the stated number/value). Yet, my point is, all three of them are worth a check or a lot of bills all totaling a value... $1,000,000... even if very few people would ever consider those three things to be equal.

So, can we please move on and stop nitpicking whether anyone would ever accept a zillion Pgems for a SoJ?

 

[WarlockCC]

In classic, I find SoJs are usually only traded away for rares.
People could offer me a inventory of gulls I still would not trade a SoJ for them. Therefore, I don't think that equasion will work even if you make it
SoJ == (X) gulls == (Y) PGems.
Perfect Skulls are more valuable then the other gems btw. Not that any of them carry any weight in the economy, but people are more likely to trade their other PGem for a PS then their PS for a PGem. Unless they happen to need whatever PGem they are trading for.

SoJ is in a higher tier then Gulls, which are in a higher tier then PGems.
No amount of items from a lower tier will get you a item from a higher tier.
(unless you are lucky because they are in need)

 

[DeusX]

Argh. You're 100% right but I still have to try and ignore that for the moment.

Here's what I'm basically trying to do, and I've seen this on other websites, btw (for LOD, earlier patches)... I don't want to link to them offsite, but you can find them easily enough.

If an SOJ is assigned an arbitrary value, say, "100"... then we can assign gulls and Pskulls and Pgems different values. Let's just say a Gull is worth "25", a Pskull is worth "5" and a Pgem is worth "2".

Once we have that figured out -- *IF* those numbers stick -- and if everyone then chimes in and says:

Gull = Hotspurs = Silks = Gskin

... that tells me that it might be fair to trade 5 Pskulls for a Gskin, or lower if I can pull it off. Obviously, everyone wants and needs different things, just like in the real world. Some will pay a SoJ for a Gskin. Others have paid game gold for a gull. Some people give away Sigons set for free.

All I'm asking for is the middle... what you guys have seen and done in Classic over the past few months, especially with common uniques.

 

[tdlofcc]

Argh. You're 100% right but I still have to try and ignore that for the moment.

Here's what I'm basically trying to do, and I've seen this on other websites, btw (for LOD, earlier patches)... I don't want to link to them offsite, but you can find them easily enough.

If an SOJ is assigned an arbitrary value, say, "100"... then we can assign gulls and Pskulls and Pgems different values. Let's just say a Gull is worth "25", a Pskull is worth "5" and a Pgem is worth "2".

Once we have that figured out -- *IF* those numbers stick -- and if everyone then chimes in and says:

Gull = Hotspurs = Silks = Gskin

... that tells me that it might be fair to trade 5 Pskulls for a Gskin, or lower if I can pull it off. Obviously, everyone wants and needs different things, just like in the real world. Some will pay a SoJ for a Gskin. Others have paid game gold for a gull. Some people give away Sigons set for free.

All I'm asking for is the middle... what you guys have seen and done in Classic over the past few months, especially with common uniques.

I don't want to burst your bubble here ... but then what ?

Most of my trading experiences have been sh*te ... stupid people who ask SoJs for worthless crap ... and people ask WAY to many SoJs for good/godly rares.

Then I can say: "But its only worth 2 SoJs so says Diabloii.net" the other guy will just as quickly start calling you a noob etc ...

So, this might be all good and stuff ... I'd just go do something better with your spare time ... gf/wife ... outside

 

[Socialism1]

So, this might be all good and stuff ... I'd just go do something better with your spare time ... gf/wife ... outside

Auugh, no, not my girlfriend! Arrgh, fssst, sunlight! Hisssss!

Edit: Question. Are you encouraging... you know. Public places. Girlfriend. Hint hint. Nudge nudge. Wink wink? Know what I mean? Know what I mean? (if anyone doesn't get this, it's a dated Monty Python's Flying Circus reference)

 

[Palm]

It's too relative to put in formulas really. You do learn an approximate value of things with experience but even that will change somewhat depending on the market. Generally though I would look at it as two tier economy. Tier one is all set, unique and less valuable rares. Tier two being high-end rares and SOJ. In a healthy economy there really is no interchangeability between the two. However if something unnatural happens, like SOJ duping, rare-item duping, act5 hacks that allow socketing (bringing down SOJ value); then tier two items may become so devalued that they become temporarily interchangeable with tier one items.

 

[goomba1]

It's too relative to put in formulas really. You do learn an approximate value of things with experience but even that will change somewhat depending on the market. Generally though I would look at it as two tier economy. Tier one is all set, unique and less valuable rares. Tier two being high-end rares and SOJ. In a healthy economy there really is no interchangeability between the two. However if something unnatural happens, like SOJ duping, rare-item duping, act5 hacks that allow socketing (bringing down SOJ value); then tier two items may become so devalued that they become temporarily interchangeable with tier one items.

well put. even more so for players that have multiple accounts full of 80-90 lvl characters, and mf-ers of all sorts (from lords, to mephy glitchers to popers)

also I may make a game with the intention, and even give away 2,000,000 gold for an empty tri socket crown, or 20 full juvs, 3 pskulls and 1,000,000 gold to rapidly get a say a spare pair of magefists, but that does not make it the value of those items. it's simply me paying for my laziness in searching through my mules, and/or laziness in mfing for them.

what one is willing to pay is always a partial factor of how desperate, or lazy they are. I have one, non-poofer soj left on east ladder...

when I offer it in the trade window, people often fall all over themselves with offers for it, and ignore the easily 7 sojs worth of gear that I put in the window with it...

unfortunately, said people also have nothing of value to offer in return.

 

[DeusX]

I have one, non-poofer soj left on east ladder...

when I offer it in the trade window, people often fall all over themselves with offers for it, and ignore the easily 7 sojs worth of gear that I put in the window with it...

unfortunately, said people also have nothing of value to offer in return.

And that is precisely the reason a thread like this should exist.

The truth is that most people we try to trade with (save for the connections made on a place like this) will be idiots, such is life. On the West, the whole place is filled with Barb/Pally traders. I could get a perfect Bonesnap for free. But Frostburns? Not a whisper.

Knowing the approximate value of certain items can only help, I feel, if for nothing more than the point of reference.

 

[goomba1]

And that is precisely the reason a thread like this should exist.

The truth is that most people we try to trade with (save for the connections made on a place like this) will be idiots, such is life. On the West, the whole place is filled with Barb/Pally traders. I could get a perfect Bonesnap for free. But Frostburns? Not a whisper.

Knowing the approximate value of certain items can only help, I feel, if for nothing more than the point of reference.

I have been employed in the arena of property appraisal for longer than the average D2 player has drawn breath on this planet. Yes, I'm that old.

Attempting to "appraise" or equate value to most items, in the game, with various realms, and mode of play, access to dupes (both permed, and non) and various hacks is a fool's venture. especially with essentially no means of recording of the market activity.

in real estate, one has the multiple listing service to view for existing listings, and pendings. further one has access to official county registrar of deeds office where one can find out the recorded purchase price of various properties. even in the automobile industry, one can data-mine secretary of state/DMV data to determine, and statistically analyze sales trends on new/used vehicles.

In theory, forum gold, and real world dollars could be used to determine relative value to objects if we were allowed to talk about same here - however, and I'm flirting with an editor's pen here - nobody, I mean nobody wastes either on the lower tier items suggested in your original thread...

Also, who can really know how big the "market" is? I would wager, that there really aren't all that many players these days that have any significant "D2" wealth - rather it's held by a few players with multiple cdkeys, and 1/2 dozen full accounts each.

So... what is the real worth for example, of a 24 fhr, 902 Def/100ED 59 life, 15 str, 2x CR/LR red ornate plate with -30 req ?

countless people will say "OMG I'd pay 15 sojs for that!!11one" when the truth is there are only a handful of people that have 15 sojs - worse, with the number of duped items (sojs included) still going around, what would the point in even trying to trade such a find?

in fact, I'd only offer 1 soj for it, cause I would fear that either the holder of the ornate was a total noob and didn't know its value - OR more than likely, it had already been duped...

my apologies for the length of that novella above, and to warlock should he feel the need to use his editor's pen.

 

[Souther]

Even if you have a fix equation it is not going to apply to everyone.

 

[fledgeling]

IMO every realm can be divided into two parts:

people who start the game and dont have any good MF chars (either this meph glitcher, which still requires some good gear, or even a shard /or a 200-300mf standard sorc (gull,2x 30% nagels etc)) and think that sigon set is worth anything
for them obtaining a shard, or a gull is hard, because they usually can offer nothing (unless they find a death's set piece)
leveling for them is painfull and slow, because they lack the basic items (shard/gull, maybe a twitch for sorc, bonesnap/some form of leech for barb)


on the other hand we have these high level players, who have 10+ chars, who often do a lot of MF runs and seek for top class items (e.g. worth a soj)
who dont even pick up semi decent rares (not to mention the sets)


these two groups dont cooperate
the second group rarely makes give-aways (I make them rarely myself..) and a simple sigon set might be an incentive for a new diablo player to play, maybe his barb will get the 10% leech then..

on the other hand players from the first group believe that they should get items for free, they dont want to MF and dont understand that it is the way of obtaining the goods

usually people who have sojs, have enough gulls allready (not sure about us-east, I think gulls are some sort of money there too, just like sojs, whereas on europe nl you cant say that "I add 2 gulls", people will just laugh at you and say that they dont need any more)


I dont consider myself too rich, but I have nearly every diablo item and if I need sigon gloves for example, I can trade 10 bad rares/uniques I find during 2-3 runs, rather than spend the whole day searching for it'
a new player might be happy, but in reality, I find few sigon sets per hour of MFing



it's like two different worlds
a person searching for top class rares often does not even pick up the set items, because he or she doesnt need them
if this person makes a trade game, she offers soj or 0,5 soj worth items

on the other hand we have the player struggling to get a full sigon set
he has some random (useless?) uniques to offer and bad rares
he needs what the rich players consider junk and has items which are even worse than junk




as for sojs and gulls
Ive heard that there is a chance of getting one for 40perfect skulls if you are very, very patient and find the proper person
but well, if you find a proper person, you might also get a soj for free (try andy, she might give you one for free if you ask her few thousand times)

if I have say, 30 gulls worth of gear and can trade a nice rare for 1 gull, why would I trade away my soj for say 11 other gulls? I dont need any medium gear, since I have it allready, I only need the best

as for uniques, there is a nice list somewhere on this forum, where the USEFUL and TRADABLE items are listed (at least most of them)

 

[DeusX]

I want to make a quick stop here and thank goomba and fledgeling for two extremely intelligent and articulate (and informative!) posts.

I'll respond to everyone else a bit later, because this is turning political (even in the good posts). Okay, so the system is broken. And "if I had a million dollars..." We still have those conversations too. It doesn't matter whether the fracking system is busted or the people are idiots or whether the stock market is about guessing instead of true valuation.

Perception = Reality. The truest equation you've ever heard.

Now, can we please PLEASE try to get back on topic? Here, I'll even restart it by posing this question: what are the five most-sought/requested uniques on your server, currently, that are actually hard to come by?

 

[Palm]

Fledgeling speaks the truth. But I would divide players into those with know-how and those without. A player with know-how knows he can start from scratch tomorrow and easily obtain all items up to and including gull because he knows how to build a MFer and knows the rarity of the items. So the only items of real value to this player are the truely rare items that are useful end-game wise. Another thing to think about is that when it comes to high-end-ish rares the value the player attributes to the item will depend on his knowledge of the game. How do you determine the market value of item X without knowing how much of the player base knows enough about the game to correctly judge the item's real usefulness?

 

[goomba1]

Now, can we please PLEASE try to get back on topic? Here, I'll even restart it by posing this question: what are the five most-sought/requested uniques on your server, currently, that are actually hard to come by?

factoring in the hard to come by and sought after...,

17/30/20 priz, stacked priz, replife +str bone/grim shields - even more so with +2 in front. Red, brown, green seem to be the preference from style whores

fhr, 3x life, dual, or tri rez 2x/3x rez bone, or grim helms (red or brown seems to be the preference)

fhr, 100 ed (902 def) -30 req ornates, especially with str/life/rez on them.

fhr, 90-100 ED mage plates with similar mods as above are also still somewhat in demand, for those that still prefer to go the vita route.

280+ dmg marts
170+ dmg bh's
130+ dmg naga's

less frequently you'll see those in search of the perfect twinker supporting items for their builds - gloves, rings, ammy's, belts and boots - from what I have seen these aren't as easy to move for high value items, and/or sojs. with a godly shield, the supporting items are not quite as necessary for those cs runs that everyone craves for levelling purposes

 

[Palm]

factoring in the hard to come by and sought after...,

17/30/20 priz, stacked priz, replife +str bone/grim shields - even more so with +2 in front. Red, brown, green seem to be the preference from style whores

fhr, 3x life, dual, or tri rez 2x/3x rez bone, or grim helms (red or brown seems to be the preference)

fhr, 100 ed (902 def) -30 req ornates, especially with str/life/rez on them.

fhr, 90-100 ED mage plates with similar mods as above are also still somewhat in demand, for those that still prefer to go the vita route.

280+ dmg marts
170+ dmg bh's
130+ dmg naga's

less frequently you'll see those in search of the perfect twinker supporting items for their builds - gloves, rings, ammy's, belts and boots - from what I have seen these aren't as easy to move for high value items, and/or sojs. with a godly shield, the supporting items are not quite as necessary for those cs runs that everyone craves for levelling purposes

He wos talkin bout uniqs.

Shard is very useful, mandatory even for something like a sorc, but easy to get.

Gull, Goldskin, Hotspurs, Silks, Tarnhelm are probably the rarest uniques. Atleast that is my experience but could also be from the places I MF in. For example, if I remember correctly normal andy can drop Gull dagger. Now I remember one time I needed gull and it wasn't droping in the places I normally MF in so I MF'ed normal andy and she would average 1 gull every 100 runs or so, much higher drop rate than hell bosses or whatever it was that I normally would MF. This is because since normal andy can not drop alot of things, including exceptional items, the number of daggers droped will be higher and therefore also the number of unique daggers droped will be higher. So you see even though the items might be somewhat "rare" if a player really wants the item he can get it.

Also the usefulness of all these items is dubious. Boss "glitching" makes using high amounts of MF (i.e gull) dubious. Some like to use 45%+ Tarns over 3 Ptopaz helms for MF but for the most part tarn and silks are only useful for BO barbs (people that run multiple copies of the game and BO themselves). Goldskin's high str req, absence of +life and relatively low def = dubious, if not null, high-end usefulness. Hotspurs can be used due to importance of fire res in end game CS runs but again dubious once a player reaches a certain level of gear.

Edit: high %ed Bonesnap is rare when it comes to uniques and useful in PvE or low level PvP.

 

[fledgeling]

well, uniques are often pretty useful when you LLD

also goldskins are used on goldfind barbs/ un-perfect palladins (1st palladin etc)

some items are believed to be useless, because people simply dont know WHEN to use them. that's why buying a stormeye (that +3 holy shock scepter, IT'S JUST AN EXAMPLE, THIS ITEM IS GARBAGE IN GENERAL) can be really hard. noone keeps them. and if someone actually does, then he will want something much better for his time to mule that item, then a similar trash item