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Poison dagger & poison damage

BuFa

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Jul 29, 2004
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Poison dagger & poison damage

Uh hello there fellow SPFers o.o

I have recently joined the SPF 1.11 hc ladder (I think, not sure I posted correctly in the spc hc ladder), and after reading the Tao of Poison and darnocpdx's Daggermancer guide, I've decided to make a build using daggermancer and a couple other things =)

I'm just making this post to make sure I've understood what I read x.X and if some kind soul would confirm the info I'm about to post, I'd appreciate it ^^.

So right now I'm a level 8 ... poisonous thingy if you will :D
As one of those, I'm currently sporting an awesome level 3 poison dagger. What I want to do is to calculate my poison damage, so I'll list my 3 sources of poison damage right now - here goes nothing:

slvl3 poison dagger:
20-32 poison damage over 2.8 seconds

socketed dagger(chippy emerald):
10 poison damage over 3 seconds

large charm of blight:
6 poison damage over 3 seconds

So from what I understand, I have to... do this stuff (note: for the calculations I will be using the lowest poison damage on the poison dagger skill - 20)

pdagger - 20/2.8 = 7.14 damage per sec (0.285/frame)

socketed dagger - 10/3 = 3.33 damage per sec (0.133/frame)

charm - 6/3 = 2 damage per sec (0.08/frame)

Now we add up the damage per frame of all sources (or per sec) ending up with 0.285+0.133+0.08 = 0.498 per frame OR

7.14+3.33+2 = 12.47 per second

Now we average the times of duration of all the poison sources EXCEPT for pdagger - this last baby will be added to the total instead of averaged. So now we have:
socketed dagger - 3 secs (75 frames)
+
large charm - 3 secs (75 frames)
Therefore we have an average of 3 secs or 75 frames of duration in these 2 together.

The last step is to this value the duration of the poison dagger skill and multiply it by the total damage per frame or seconds (frames go with frames, seconds go with seconds).

3+2.8 = 5.8 seconds total duration or
75+70 = 145 frames

Lastly we get:
5.8*12.47 = 72.326 total damage over 5.8 seconds
OR
145*0.498 = 72.21 total damage over 145 frames

I just wanted to show the frames and seconds difference since frames give a more accurate result, but sometimes its annoying to think about them, so you could probably do it using seconds, and get a more inaccurate and uglier number.

If anyone could please review that info and make sure I learned what I read, I'll ... bake you an imaginary cake ^^ and be forever in your debt :D

Thanks again and sorry for such a lenghty post o_O
 

essojay

Member
Jun 26, 2004
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I'm too stupid to have answers for those questions, but I wanted to bring the new runeword armor "treachery" to your attention. I don't know how its ctc venom would work with Poison Dagger, but it could be really nice.
 

Llathias

Banned
Mar 12, 2005
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your calculations are exactly correct.

for the future, always keep in mind that additional sources of poison (with short duration) might reduce your total dmg.
 

Sint Nikolaas

Member
Apr 9, 2004
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Hm.. I'm not sure about the ''Now we average the times of duration of all the poison sources EXCEPT for pdagger - this last baby will be added to the total instead of averaged.''

I know for sure that if you calculate your damage with treachery (0,4 sec + whatever on pdagger) you'll have to add the time durations and not average them. Other then that the dmg per frame calculation looks good.

Btw, treachery is better then a bramble, so.. stick with that :)

edit: ah ok.. since it's only one poison source you can add it..
 

parawizard

Member
Jul 10, 2004
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Sint Nikolaas said:
Hm.. I'm not sure about the ''Now we average the times of duration of all the poison sources EXCEPT for pdagger - this last baby will be added to the total instead of averaged.''

I know for sure that if you calculate your damage with treachery (0,4 sec + whatever on pdagger) you'll have to add the time durations and not average them. Other then that the dmg per frame calculation looks good.

Btw, treachery is better then a bramble, so.. stick with that :)

edit: ah ok.. since it's only one poison source you can add it..

Im not sure how treachery would overthrow a bramble? Espescially a beta bramble?

the venom is 300-400 poison damage?
 

Kitriara

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Jan 30, 2004
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www.skkra.com
I'm currently working with Mad Mantis, the Necro forum mod, to create an accurate poison calculator. Once I get the equations worked out correctly no one will have to ask this stuff anymore.

God only knows why they made poison dagger the most impossible-to-understand skill in the game. It works with everything in different ways.
 

BuFa

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Jul 29, 2004
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OOo thank you everyone ^^ Dang now I'm determined to make those bastards go green and die :lol:

@ essojay : Good thing you mentioned that, I hadn't even checked what the new runewords were about =/

@ Llathias : Yeah I was trying to get a lesson out of this, but wasn't able to relate things ! Thanks a bunch I'll keep it in mind o.o

@ Kitriara : Awesome =) I'm looking forward to it !

Thanks everyone again ^^
 

Llathias

Banned
Mar 12, 2005
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for more sample calculations with Poison Dagger dmg/duration, you might want to check this page (no calculations in the first page of the thread, but you'd probably find it all useful).

good luck with your daggermancer!

Edit: i just noticed that you'd seen and even posted in that thread! it seems that's where you actually got the idea of a daggermancer. oh well, i gotta search more before trying to give advice... :rolleyes:
 

Uzziah

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Feb 20, 2004
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@ Bufa your calculations are exactly correct, they are arguing over venom which is a whole new ball game with poison and one that the tao of poison doesn't go into.

essojay said:
Treachery is probably neck-and-neck with a beta bramble. By the way, how did you get a beta bramble?

neck and neck not a chance.

Take my experience with poison I have a barb who deals 1668-17xx damage naked but with charms. thats ~1650 poison damage over ~6-6.3 seconds.

Now thats what 262 poison per second. Even with a 305-325 venom (@ slvl 15) thats not going to compare with the 100%+ boost of beta bramble. heck it won't compare with the current bramble.

With all of those charms, trangs gloves and the slvl 15 venom you will be dealing about (262+305)*(1.25) = 708.75 poison per second damage, add that to your poison dagger however long it is and add on 0.4 seconds to the total duration. in our case lets use X damage over Y seconds.

so with treachery:

(X+708.75) * (Y+0.4) = total poison damage.

with bramble you would have minimum 25% to poison damage. so 262 *(1+.25 (trangs) + .25 (bramble) = 393 poison damage per second.

so with bramble:

(X+393) * (Y + 6) = total poison damage.

Set your total poison damages equal to each other and use your poison dagger skill as your second equation and you will be able to get how much pdagger you need for bramble to be higher in damage (its really low by the way). Lets look at slvl 5 pdagger.

slvl 5 pdagger with nothing else is 40-56 poison over 3.6 seconds lets use the 40 number for simplisity.


(X+708.75) * (Y+0.4) = total poison damage.
(40+708.75)*(3.6+0.4) = 2995 total damage

(X+393) * (Y + 6) = total poison damage.
(40+393)*(3.6+6) = 4156.8

So even with 5 skill points I can show a vast difference in venom over the 25% (low end Bramble).
 

BuFa

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Jul 29, 2004
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Uh, about Venom, should I treat it's damage as a normal poison source (thus averaging time with the other sources), or like pdagger, just adding to the final duration ?
Got me a little confused X.x
 

Uzziah

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Feb 20, 2004
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BuFa said:
Uh, about Venom, should I treat it's damage as a normal poison source (thus averaging time with the other sources), or like pdagger, just adding to the final duration ?
Got me a little confused X.x

Venom is a skill and it controls the normal poison source. basically you take the poison rates and add them as normal but Venom controls the duration and sets the duration of all normal sources to 0.4 seconds

so i have a charm of 100 poison damage over 5 seconds, slvl 15 venom, and a charm of 50 poison damage over 5 seconds.

100/5 = 20
50/5 = 10
305/0.4 = 762.5

add rates 20+10+762.5 = 792.5

set duration to 0.4

So 792.5 * 0.4 = 317 poison damage over 0.4 seconds is now your normal poison damage.

Then venom and the normal poison sources are considered the normal poison source, for the pdagger addition.
 

chickenhed

Member
Jun 26, 2003
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This treachery armor will be a wonderful boon to my PD necro, no doubt about it! This really is great information, thanks a great deal!

So, anyone have a spare lem kicking around? ;)
 

chickenhed

Member
Jun 26, 2003
209
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Summoned said:
Trying to get r00nz? ;)

OMG BANZORZ!!!!111ONE

and maybe a ist while eveyone is looking for that lem. i could use a grandfather and a windforce. never did get those. how about a death's web as well. that would be cool.

;)

oh and a zod.
 

Llathias

Banned
Mar 12, 2005
2,192
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Turkey
Dear Santa;

I've been a good boy this year, so I want a Jah and a Ber and a superior high end achron plate with 3 os please.



or

Dear Santa;

Gib 3N16m4!!!!11!1
 

essojay

Member
Jun 26, 2004
2,583
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120
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Let's see. My first 1.11 project will be a venom dagger necromancer.

I'm planning him out here at work right now. I'm asking you guys to provide suggestions.


It4mz
Helm: Guillaumes or Harlequin Crest
Ammy: Mara's
Weapon: Fleshripper
Shield: Trang's, Homunculus, Rhyme or Splendour (I'll need to find a +3 Poison Dagger shrunken head though)
Armor: Treachery
Gloves: Trang's
Belt: Trang's, Arachnid's or Verdungo's
Rings: 2 SOJ, 2 Raven Frost (no need if I use Trang's belt or Rhyme), 1 BK, 2 Carrion Wind
I also have a few dual leech rings but I can't recall their stats because I'm at work.
Boots: Marrowwalk (if I decide to have skellies with me), Gore Riders or a rare

IAS breakpoints for Fanged Knife according to my sources:
0 IAS - 15 fpa
10 IAS - 14 fpa
20 IAS - 13 fpa
35 IAS - 12 fpa
60 IAS - 11 fpa
100 IAS - 10 fpa

I can socket the Fleshripper with a Shael rune or any item with an IAS jewel to hit the 11 fpa breakpoint. (Treachery gives 45%) 10 fpa probably isn't worth it.


Skillz
20 poison dagger
20 poison explosion
20 poison nova
1 Teeth
1 Corpse Explosion
1 Bone Armor
1 Lower Resist and 6 pre-reqs
1 Dim Vision
1 Clay Golem

What else? I could invest in skellies (or maybe even magi) or bone spear and bone spirit. Both increases my "longetivity" through tanks or strengthened Bone Armor.


Stats
How much blocking should I go for? Barring socketing the sheilds with an Eld Rune, the shield blocking percentages of Homun and Trang's are 72% and 60% respectively. I could ditch blocking altogether, but I'm worried I would have AR problems, even with the boost from Poison Dagger and the -50% enemy defense from Fleshripper.


Merc
I'll be getting an Act 2 merc.
Holy Freeze is out because it eliminates useful corpses, so the usable ones remaining are Might, Blessed Aim, and Defiance (Thorns and Prayer suck IMO). I'll probably go with Might just for the hell of it. Now that's an idea - a necro dying from IM.

I noticed that poison dagger costs quite a bit of mana (and I have no leech) at high levels, so I'm considering Insight on my merc. Otherwise I'll be putting on a Hone Sundan. Guillaumes and Duriel's Shell will fill the other equipment slots.