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Is PvP Balance?

Dendroid King

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Aug 4, 2005
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Is PvP Balance?

Ignoring some pvp rules like no absorb items, no enigma for teleport or no consuming potions (maybe some private rules), is pvp ever balance for all 7 major characters assuming their level and items are off the same quality?

I believe net damage is the biggest factor in determining whether they r balance or not. And of coz not raw dmg. Can ur roughly compute all the classes net damage and of coz their types like FB Sorc or Blizz Sorc.

The main reason i ask this question is because I believe Sorc are generally very weak pvp characters and more geared towards mfing. With stacking resistance and lots of absorb items, I believe Sorc net damage are negated very badly as they r really pure elemental. Correct me if I m wrong.

Thx. :clap:
 
Apr 27, 2004
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I wont do the math - but I can definately tell you that the classes is NOT balanced.

And damage is important but there is a lot more to it (if you never hit a high damage wont help you).

And your correct - if you stack resists and put on absorb items sorcs are "weak".
 
Oct 18, 2004
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I do not get your question... -.-

True, sorcs are rather a diminishing factor in PvP as days go by, but there are a lot of good ones out there, and not many people bother with insane absorb + resi stack with 4x Lo Monarch + dual 20% Wisps + etc.

Your net damage is not the biggest factor in PvP. In fact, there are a lot of other factors that can "balance" out the world of PvP. You may be fighting a WW Barb with your WW Barb, and he does more damage + has more defense + has more life, you can still beat if you have 50% DR + max block. It's never balanced. There is always little things turning up. You may be fighting a melee with your melee, and when you have very low health and he has very high health, a Life Tap or Amp could be casted on your favor and you could still win.

A balanced game would be boring. Period.
 
Oct 20, 2003
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newerest said:
With marrowwalks no longer used, I believe that BvC will be the dominate build.

Not at all. The skill to do BvC correctly far exceeds the capacity of the average dueler that makes up the masses of the dueling community in Diablo. Heck, my ww sin regularly built BvC builds, and I should NEVER beat a good barb. This tells me that there are just a lot of bad drivers out there who will TRY to make good BvC characters, but die trying because they don't realize it actually takes a LOT of practice.

In any event, hammer pallys remain the character of choice for the unskilled looking to "own". You can quickly and easily, even with crappy items.
 

luis19

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people seem to think taking away marrows completely nerfed necros. it doesn't, they lose damage but their bone skills are still strong.
they do lose curses/revives, but they now have prision which helps vs a few classes, especially desyncing pallys.
 

mcm

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Dennis_KoreanGuy said:
It is near impossible for a BvC Barb to beat a BvB Barb provided they have similar wealth + skill + quality computer. It's just matter of max block + 50% DR vs. 17% Block + 8% DR.

Every BVBer I've run into since ladder ended has been using Fortitude, and a lot don't even HAVE an enigma. I just shoot arrows at them and they cry about it.
 
Oct 18, 2004
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mcm said:
Every BVBer I've run into since ladder ended has been using Fortitude, and a lot don't even HAVE an enigma. I just shoot arrows at them and they cry about it.
Exactly what I mean. BvC Barb < BvB Barb < Bowazon < BvC Barb < etc.

A game with too much thought into balace would be boring.
 

Dendroid King

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So I do a simple calculation on a Meter Orb Sorc who has +20 to all skills. (seems impressive to me) Tell me if u know of anyone has higher than that. Place 20 pts max in Fireball, Meteor & Fire Mastery. Assume fcr is already at a good level.

Therefore,

Fireball dmg = 8804-9550
Meteor dmg = 20,728-21537

If target has 75% fire resistance & 40% fire absorb:

Fireball Net Dmg = 9550*1/6*1/4*3/5 = 238.74998 excluding the healing

Meteor Net Dmg = 21537*1/6*1/4*3/5= 538.425 excluding healing

(Correct me if I m wrong)

With such a low net damage, it will takes at least 25 fireballs to kill at least a 6000+ life Barb & the Barb surely has higher net damage. I believe 1 whirlwill dance is enuf to kill a Sorc. Meteor is slow and unlikely to kill that Barb although u may have stolen the Necro's Bone Prison as that Barb could have easily stole the Sorc's Teleport!!!! Plus Fire resistance could have actually reach 95%!!!!

So my suggestion to balance Sorc:

1. Make absorb elemental dmg obsolete in pvp just like life leech.
2. Change Energy into Intelligence which will increase spell dmg & resistance.
3. Energy Shield to be buff like in Diablo 1 where first level itself would be
damage taken to be absorb 100% by mana and the ratio of damage
received and mana lost to be 1:1 regardless of any level.

What do ur think?
 

F1R3STR1D3R

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Oct 13, 2003
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Not all sorceresses are the same that was only a fireball sorceress.

Assuming I have a perfect build:
Say I have a level 45 Frozen Orb synergized with +75% Cold Skill Damage
That is 1580 average per shard. There is an average of 12 shards per orb that can hit a single target. Which is 18960 total damage.
Also a level 45 Cold Mastery with three -5% Facets. That is -255% Cold Pierce.

Say I'm facing a barb with 6,000 Life, 40% Cold Absorb, and 250% Cold Resist Stacked (75% in Hell). After piercing his cold resist is -5%

Damage = 1580*.17*1.05*.6=169.218-(1580*.17*1.05*.4)=56.406*12=676.872
per orb after healing. I would still need 9 orbs to kill the barb, but after constant teleporting and spamming orb 9 is not a lot.

For the number of hits the barb needs to kill me:
I have a level 33 Energy Shield: **% Absorbed and a Level 26 Warmth: 330% Regen Mana. I figured that I could get 1587 life and 5294 mana with zero point into dexterity and vitality and 386 point into energy with level 15 battle orders, 2 sojs, frostburns, and arachnids. This is assuming 10x 20/17 and 9x 40 life skillers. My block is 15% and my DR% is 0. Say the barb does 5,000 damage.

Damage to Life = 5000*.85*.17*.12=86.7
Damage to Mana = 5000*.85*.17*.**=635.8
Mana Regeneration= 25 * [[256 * 5294 / (25 * 120)] * (330/100 + 1] / 256=186.7 per second
If the barb hit me instantly it would take about 9 hits to kill me.
If my mana was full every time he hit me it would take 19 hits.

If I really wanted to go BM I could use an Insight/Prayer Merc with 10x 70/15
 

luis19

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dual wield barbs do a whole lot more than 5k dmg, and its multihit.
dont forget DS/CS and OW will eat away ur life easily.

but its still a hard duel since its usually hard to hit an orber to begin with, but when you do they go down pretty fast... OW>ES.
 

Dendroid King

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Damage to Mana = 5000*.85*.17*.**=635.8

I believe u forgot to *2 in ur equation. I m sure u did not put 16 hard points into telekinesis rite? So therefore mana lost= 635.8*2= 1271.6 as without telekinesis, for every 1 net damage absorb by mana, u will lost 2 mana. Plus if the Barb whirwill dance, u will be stun ....Thats make it worse.

Anyway which items help u to reach +75% Cold Skill Dmg? Ormus Robes, Nightwing's Veil, Death's Fathom and Tal Rasha Lidless Eye are the only I know that +% to Cold Skill dmg. Highest from any of these 3 is 60%. So the other 15%??????

How also our computation shows that the Barb can kill the Sorc easier rather than the Sorc can kill that Barb. Sigh :mad:
 

luis19

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Dendroid King said:
How also our computation shows that the Barb can kill the Sorc easier rather than the Sorc can kill that Barb. Sigh :mad:

truth. the best orber i've ever seen/dueled could only win at the most 40% of the duels, this was before my barb had leap and vs botd.
the score will probably be alot less vs leap with grief.
 

AndyChrono

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Sep 10, 2003
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PvP isn't balanced at all. There's a reason why people have self-made rules like no pots, no over-absorbing, etc. It's an attempt to balance things out. I should add that the generally accepted "good manner" dueling rules make it ridiculously difficult for elemental builds to perform well against certain other classes.

In a perfectly balanced world, every build should be able to go 50/50 with every other build assuming similar level, items, skill, etc. That's ideal balance. Then we have the rock-paper-scissor balance which is not as good but still prevents one class from dominating. Right now PvP has neither since barbs are obviously the best PvP class.
 

F1R3STR1D3R

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dual wield barbs do a whole lot more than 5k dmg, and its multihit.
You know a barb who can dual wield with 250% stacked cold resists? Because I put that into the equation.
Damage to Mana = 5000*.85*.17*.**=635.8

I believe u forgot to *2 in ur equation.
You're right I forgot the synergy from telekinesis actually it should be a 1:0.75 ratio instead of a 1:1 ratio because I have 20 hard points into telekinesis.
So it should be Damage to Mana = 5000*.85*.17*.***.75=476.85
My skills are (for a level 99):
20 Frozen Orb
20 Cold Mastery
20 Telekinesis
20 Ice Bolt
10 Energy Shield
10 Warmth
(this is all theoretical I don't really have this character)

Anyway which items help u to reach +75% Cold Skill Dmg?

35/-5 Death's Fathom (5/5 Facet)
20/-5 Ormus' Robes (5/5 Facet)
20/-5 Nightwing's Veil (5/5 Facet)
 

luis19

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stacking resist?
i rather use grief/beast with 2x ravens.

and dont say 2 piece of sorb is bm, you do more dmg vs 40% sorb than vs 75 cold resist.
 

F1R3STR1D3R

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luis19 said:
stacking resist?
i rather use grief/beast with 2x ravens.

and dont say 2 piece of sorb is bm, you do more dmg vs 40% sorb than vs 75 cold resist.

I know the mechanics behind diablo 2... And I don't think that is BM since it doesn't totally negate my damage. Although I think namelock is BM but I'm not accusing you.
 

luis19

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if you know the mechanics of d2, then why compare a fully decked out orber to a barb with low damage, 1 handed?

9 orbs to kill a barb is unrealistic and 9 ww's to kill an orber is way too many.

you also forgot to factor in stuff like OW which drains ~500 of your life and that if you get caught in a ww, you can possibly take mulitple hits, run out of mana and die.

OW alone would drain nearly all of you're life in 3 doses, if you can survive the physical dmg, cb, and venom (grief).

on the other hand, an orber will almost never get a full orb hit on a barb. usually only a few shards (1-3) per orb will hit if any.
leap makes it easy to aviod being hit and also makes it dangerous for the orber to get near.
 

F1R3STR1D3R

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ok please tell me your damage, life, fcr, ow%, and everything else. I thought one handed 5,000 damage 6,000 life barb with 250% stacked cold resists (160% cold resist shield) would be a fair comparison vs. a fully decked out orber. Sure you could use dual wielding but your resists will suffer which means more damage for me, and most likely if you don't have 105% FCR you won't catch a sorceress with 105% FCR unless you namelock.

I'm not here to argue with you. I just think there is balance between the classes. After playing a PvP Wind druid, PvP BvA, and a PvP Orber, I didn't see much difference in the way duels played out. I had above average gear for all of them, not perfect but pretty close.